Coming from other discipline is a degree in Math necessary?

[Divinity]

I finished my undergrad last year with a B.S. in Biology and a B.A. in Philosophy with a minor in Applied Math. Right now I am in an M.S. program for Geographic Information Science, which I should be finishing this year (graduating May 2013). From my studies and general interests, I've decided that I want to move towards Math. I am a little undecided between Applied Math and Statistics, but despite my background in Biology I am not that interested in narrowing myself with Biostatistics. Here's some info about me:

GRE: 780q/580v/4w

Undergrad GPA: 3.92

Grad GPA: 4.0

For math classes I've taken up through multivariable calculus (calc 3), differential equations, intro to linear algebra, and a couple statistics courses.

From what I've seen looking at even top grad programs, their minimums are pretty much what I've taken, but is that really all that I need? Will it just be expected that my first couple semesters will be taking more "remedial" classes to catch up with everyone else, or should I go back and get a bachelor's in Math? It would take me about a year (6-8 classes) to get one at my first institution.

Also what level of school could I expect to get accepted to? I have very high GPA's, but they are at somewhat lower institutions compared to what I see people post on here. Would I have a chance getting into Top10 schools? Top20?

Thanks in advance for any advice!

[m4thguYY]

I've been researching stats/applied math for a while now, and I have yet to see someone in ANY level of program without a serious degree in math or physics (outside of biomath, where they usually have your background plus a degree in math). Your philosophy degree is useless in terms of math, and really your biology is as well, unless you've taken biomathematics or advanced math/sciences courses like p.chem, which won't get you far either way. Your applied math minor is great, and your GPA is great, but you also have to figure in:

You are applying against people with a bachelor's and master's in math/applied math/stats. You may have the core classes but you are still underprepared.

Other big questions:

How is your school ranked? Is it in the US? Are you male or female?

Have you done research or written any research papers?

Applying to top 25 programs without the Math Subject GRE is suicide (Despite them only "recommending" it) .. have you taken that? If so, how did you do?

How are your Letters of Recommendation?

Have you taken any real statistics courses? (Stochastic, Applied Prob, Game, Combinatorics, etc.)

I could be wrong of course, and I wouldn't doubt it at all, so take this with a grain of salt, but.. I really don't think your application is very strong for statistics/applied math unless it is bio related or you have perfect answers to all the questions I asked..

[cyberwulf]

james8787,

Your post has a lot of bad advice and misinformation (at least with regards to the OP's chances of gaining admission to a statistics department; I know less about Applied Math, but there are a couple of folks here who might be able to comment on these points as well):

I've been researching stats/applied math for a while now, and I have yet to see someone in ANY level of program without a serious degree in math or physics (outside of biomath, where they usually have your background plus a degree in math).

Then you're clearly not looking in the right places. Students without a math degree are certainly in the minority, but it's not unheard-of by any stretch, even in good departments.

Your philosophy degree is useless in terms of math, and really your biology is as well, unless you've taken biomathematics or advanced math/sciences courses like p.chem, which won't get you far either way.

If by 'useless' you mean 'doesn't have a lot of mathematical coursework', then yes. But excellent performance in *any* discipline is meaningful, since it carries some information about a student's general intelligence and potential. Furthermore, I think most would view philosophy as one of the *best* qualitative disciplines to have a background in if you're going to be moving on to quantitative study in math/stats. In fact, I would likely give more weight to an 'A' in an advanced philosophy course than the same grade in a biomath course.

Have you done research or written any research papers?

Though research experience is nice, it isn't really that relevant or essential.

Applying to top 25 programs without the Math Subject GRE is suicide (Despite them only "recommending" it)

Nonsense. A good performance on the Math GRE certainly helps, but I can say from personal experience that not taking it does not preclude admission to good places.

Have you taken any real statistics courses? (Stochastic, Applied Prob, Game, Combinatorics, etc.)

Irrelevant. These courses are rarely taught at a rigorous level before graduate school, so they mean very little.

Here's my advice for the OP:

From what I've seen looking at even top grad programs, their minimums are pretty much what I've taken, but is that really all that I need? Will it just be expected that my first couple semesters will be taking more "remedial" classes to catch up with everyone else, or should I go back and get a bachelor's in Math? It would take me about a year (6-8 classes) to get one at my first institution.

Also what level of school could I expect to get accepted to? I have very high GPA's, but they are at somewhat lower institutions compared to what I see people post on here. Would I have a chance getting into Top10 schools? Top20?

It wasn't clear from your original post if you've taken probability and mathematical statistics; if you haven't, that could be a limitation of your application (I suppose the same could be said for differential equations if you go into Applied Math). Otherwise, your GPA makes you competitive, but your degree of success will likely hinge on the academic reputation of your undergraduate institution as well as the strength of your letters of recommendation. Some programs do have flexibility in terms of making up lacking coursework, but generally the expectation is that you come to graduate school prepared to begin graduate-level study. You should look at some first-year syllabi for stat/AM grad programs to get an idea for the gap between where you are and where you'll need to be next September.

Overall, I don't think gaining admission to a Top 20 stat program is out of the question. If you want to aim a bit higher, you might consider starting in a Masters program at a good place (eg. Top 10-15), and "upgrading" if you perform well.

And, I know you said you didn't want to restrict yourself to biostatistics, but I think your profile would play pretty well there, and you might have a chance of getting into a Top 5 department. And I would take a Top 5 biostat department over a stat department ranked outside the Top 20 any day.

[m4thguYY]

I just went to three random schools (one top 10, one ~20 rank, one ~30 rank) and looked at 35 stats grad student pages. EVERY one of them has a mathematical degree (two of them have dual majors, one paired with physics, one with economics). Given that there may exist a student at a top 20 university with a double major in two non-related fields, it doesn't seem like they are very pronounced.

And yes, I mean "doesnt have a lot of mathematical coursework".

I suppose research and math gre are separate and could be missing, but we are talking top 20 here. I don't find it very reasonable (i am sure it is possible, though) to say you can make a top 20 program with neither of these when everyone applying has them.

Yes, stats courses are not looked for. But, this is a PhD. This isn't a small commitment. I think that seeing experience and good grades at the graduate level is something (like research & math gre) that will separate you from the pack.

And yes, as I asked, your school and LOR are important. That being said, I do think his application does lack a lot of what a good application will have. I don't really see how you could deny that, he doesn't have a degree in a math-intensive science. Doesn't have research, test scores, etc..

I am not trying to put him down or defend myself, people are more than welcome to have different opinions. You see him as top 20, I think that would be a stretch. I think if you stay in Biostats you have a much better shot at a better ranked school and a better department.

[cyberwulf]

I just went to three random schools (one top 10, one ~20 rank, one ~30 rank) and looked at 35 stats grad student pages. EVERY one of them has a mathematical degree (two of them have dual majors, one paired with physics, one with economics). Given that there may exist a student at a top 20 university with a double major in two non-related fields, it doesn't seem like they are very pronounced.

I suspect that at least some of those folks majored in statistics, not math, or at least had a dual math-X major, where X was a non-STEM field. Those students are unlikely to have had many more 'core' math courses than the OP. They may have had more exposure to applied statistics (or various random math courses), but exposure to and performance in these classes doesn't matter nearly as much as many seem to think. Also, that random sampling of 35 presumably included many foreign students, almost all of whom indeed have math/stat degrees. The proportion of domestic students who haven't seen much more math than the minimum listed for admission is non-negligible, I assure you.

I suppose research and math gre are separate and could be missing, but we are talking top 20 here. I don't find it very reasonable (i am sure it is possible, though) to say you can make a top 20 program with neither of these when everyone applying has them.

I was admitted to top 10 departments out of undergrad without doing the math GRE. My colleague in the office next door was admitted to similar places out of undergrad without doing the math GRE. Many of the students we admit to our department are also admitted to good stat programs without the math GRE. Few of these students have substantial research experience. I don't know what else to say.

But, this is a PhD. This isn't a small commitment. I think that seeing experience and good grades at the graduate level is something (like research & math gre) that will separate you from the pack. I am not trying to put him down or defend myself, people are more than welcome to have different opinions. You see him as top 20, I think that would be a stretch.

See, I think the disconnect here is that you are thinking that excellent performance in a large number of math courses at a well-regarded school, research experience, and a good math GRE score are the minimum required for admission to a Top 20 place. In reality, if you have those, you are essentially a slam-dunk for many top 20 places, and probably have a very good shot at getting into a top 5 department.

[sisyphus1]

i would also note that many undergrad "math" majors (esp from US universities) haven't had many more math courses than the OP.

math requirement at my school (it's a decent school) was calculus I-III, linear algebra, ODE, real analysis, number theory, upper level linear algebra, and a couple of electives that could easily be filled by "softer" econ/finance/comp sci courses (econometrics, financial engineering etc. this is the route a lot of students, including me, took).

of course, there were a few hardcore math students who took topology, abstract algebra, honors-level real analysis etc., but from my observations they were definitely the minority

Edited September 19, 2012 by sisyphus1