How Bad is an A-?

[DontHate]

I've heard some mixed things on these here forums about getting an A- in a graduate-level class. Some have said that anything less than an A is cause for concern, and too many B+'s can get you kicked out of a PhD program. Others have made a certain sputtering sound with their lips upon hearing this, and waved their hand in a flippant manner as if to imply "what tosh!"

What thinkest you? How much does an A- count against you when applying to a PhD program? Once in the program, will an A- get you negative attention from the powers that be?

[33andathirdRPM]

There exist Ph.D. students who achieved less than 4.0 GPA in their undergraduate career. There exist Ph.D. students who have less than a 4.0 GPA in their *graduate coursework.

Edited December 18, 2012 by 33andathirdRPM

[DarwinAG]

In psychology, once you're in graduate school your GPA matters less and it is more about publications and presentations. Of course you dont' want to do poorly in your classes, but an A- won't really count against you. Higher GPA will of course make it easier for you to get scholarships.

Your GPA as an undergraduate matters as part of your application packet. But I have a very low GPA at 3.39. That includes one F, a few Ds, and some Cs. I have made up for it in other areas of my application. With that said, I think it will hurt me if I am compared to another candidate with similar credentials except their GPA is better.

[DontHate]

There exist Ph.D. students who achieved less than 4.0 GPA in their undergraduate career. There exist Ph.D. students who have less than a 4.0 GPA in their *graduate coursework.

I'm not questioning their existence so much as their prevalence. Particularly in tippy-top programs.

[NowMoreSerious]

I got an A- once. I framed it and put it next to my "outstanding citizenship award" from the 6th grade.

[magicunicorn]

I think the more important question might just be why you got the A-... and if everyone else in the class got A's? I'm confused though by the OP's status as a student.. are you an undergrad taking grad level "200" courses.. or a grad student/phD student already who just got an A-? Often, you can figure out the seriousness of the "A-" from older grad students in your program... and getting below an A has almost no immediate effect, but rather the effect of doing poorly (the lower grade that is a result of that) may trickle down into a series of negatives... but often is not just because of the A-. Its a "symptom" and not the "cause" if that makes sense.

[Sparky]

1. Too many B+'s got a friend of mine kicked out of our PhD program. This happened. (And as a warning to those of you who didn't read the thread on the history board--that has made me, personally, very cynical on this matter, so please judge my comments accordingly).

2. My dept has not blinked at the handful of A-'s that I have, but I certainly would not call them "prevalent."

2a. That said, I had a 4.0 GPA for my M* (...when I sent my transcripts! ).

3. I imagine that undergrad in a grad level class is a whole different world from grad student. Both here and at my undergrad, it is *usually* (not always!) the practice to give slightly different sets of work to undergrads and grads. So as an undergrad, you might have a midterm, final, and much shorter paper or papers. As a grad student, especially in English, most of your grade will likely be based on 1-3 papers, period. This has been my experience, from both sides. A grad program is not so much interested in your ability to pass midterms. They are very, very interested in your ability to write formal literature papers.

4. Bridging off magicunicorn: grad school is a time of transition, for PhD students, from student to professional. The standard you want to reach is not really an A, that's kind of a formality, it's to write papers that are publishable. If you are earning solid A-'s across the board, your work is almost certainly not up to that quality. Which is a problem.

5. I know this sounds terrifying (YOU MUST GET A'S), but really, I promise, it's SO much different once you're there. It's not even like pressure to get A's. Nobody cares, because it's less of an expectation than an assumption that you'll do near-publishable work (and thus get an A). You just...do. It's hard to explain, but I promise, that's how it is. I am not sure it is so much 'rising to the occasion' as it is, everyone here is just that darn good.

6. You are in English. You will be writing papers. Writing papers is a good chunk of what many/most of you hope to do for a living. You would not want to do this if you were bad at it. YOU WILL BE FANTASTIC.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Sparky

[Seeking]

There are universities where an A+ exists only in principle, never awarded. An A is extremely rare - my be awarded to only one student in a small class and to two in a large class and that too not always. A- is awarded to top 5-10% of the class in such places.

As a result, A- is really the top grade most of the time in such places, is highly prized and is awarded after a lot of hard work on part of the students.

B+ is perceived as not top 5-10%, but definitely a good grade in such places.

I hope the ad-comms take into account the diverse patterns of grading in different places while evaluating applications, as students are applying from different patterns of grading cultures.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Seeking

[rems]

I got one A- in graduate school. I don't think it causes too much alarm as long as you only have one or two. I took, like, 36 something graduate credit hours and managed out of all that to get ONE A-. The adcom won't know this, but everyone in the class got an A-. That particular prof is a notoriously tough grader, and I even debated not taking her class for that very reason. BUT, I didn't have a lot of "diversity" in my courses, and I wanted it to look like could read literature written before the 1900's -- backfired.

Long story short, my overall grade was a 91.2. She has anything under a 91.89 as an A-. This also varies from school to school and prof to prof. So the adcom won't know, first, what the prof was like, second, how the overall class was structured, and, third, the nature of that prof's grading. So, one or two A-'s and I think you're okay.

Any B's though, well, you're fucked. And I would say, this is only my opinion, that anymore than 3-4 A-'s would raise alarms. 5+ would be a death rattle.

[Quant_Liz_Lemon]

I'm not questioning their existence so much as their prevalence. Particularly in tippy-top programs.

In my quant methods class, we're overloaded with grad students who haven't shifted their focus from grades to research. 1/2 earned some flavor of A, 1/3 earned some flavor of B, and 1/6 earned Cs. In the 2nd year methods course, the grading distribution was 1/6 A, 1/6 A-, and so on. But given that this in the humanities forum, I guess there seems to be less focus on research and more focus on coursework.

[Datatape]

I have almost exclusively As, one A- and yes, a dreaded B. The B, however, comes from the hardest grader in the department, one of my letter recommenders, who noted in her letter that she rarely, if ever, gives out As to students of any level and even an A- is almost unheard of. My GPA overall is a 3.87 and I have a 4.0 in four out of six semesters of course work. Everything has context and there are exceptions to every rule.

[rems]

I have almost exclusively As, one A- and yes, a dreaded B. The B, however, comes from the hardest grader in the department, one of my letter recommenders, who noted in her letter that she rarely, if ever, gives out As to students of any level and even an A- is almost unheard of. My GPA overall is a 3.87 and I have a 4.0 in four out of six semesters of course work. Everything has context and there are exceptions to every rule.

I rescind what I said earlier about getting a B. I think this discussion may come down to the "picture" your grades present. If you have done great things, but have lowly A- or even the dreaded B, I think your overall "portrait" as a student is still strong. I think this, then, varies from person to person and what your "overall" package represents.

In my quant methods class, we're overloaded with grad students who haven't shifted their focus from grades to research. 1/2 earned some flavor of A, 1/3 earned some flavor of B, and 1/6 earned Cs. In the 2nd year methods course, the grading distribution was 1/6 A, 1/6 A-, and so on. But given that this in the humanities forum, I guess there seems to be less focus on research and more focus on coursework.

And I think the hard sciences and humanities differ a lot in this regard. Most humanities grades are determined by course work culminating in a dissertation, publication, presentation or two by the time of graduation. My dad has a MA in immunology or something else super science-y, and explaining to him how I was getting a MA WITHOUT doing an experiment was like trying to explain to your dog why it's raining. He would not accept the fact that I was earning a higher degree without doing, what he considered to be, quotequote, "research." I was like, "Dad, we do research, we just don't have petri dishes involved." "So you read books?" "Yes. We read lots of books." "But how do you quantify results?" "We kinda make up the results and then back it up with what other people say." "I don't get it." "Le sigh."

[asleepawake]

I've been lead to believe that GPA doesn't mean a whole lot in graduate school.

I have a couple of A-'s. I also have a B+, you guys! It was from my first semester, when I came to my MA program as an MFA student and had pretty much never read literary theory, and I took a pretty difficult professor - since then, I got an A in another of his classes and he is my thesis advisor. I do not worry about that B+ because I learned so much in that class. I've also chosen to take courses with notoriously difficult graders as I tend to learn the most from them. There are some courses of 15ish people where a professor gives out almost all As, and there are other classes of this size where a professor gives out 0-2 A's, a few A-'s, a lot of B+'s and B's, and a few grades lower. I think (hope?) that adcoms know this. There are also people who do things like check myedu.com for the easiest graders so that they can maintain a 4.0 while doing the least amount of work possible. I'll pass on that strategy. My grades of less than A have (in most cases) come with excellent professor feedback that has made me a better writer, scholar, researcher, everything. I am not grade-focused or status-hungry. Also, I don't know anyone in my program with a 4.0, though I imagine there are a few. Grade inflation isn't that common here.

Edited December 18, 2012 by asleepawake

[rems]

I don't think in the initial cuts an A- or B would do much, but it might affect (effect?) your chances when it's down to 12 applications for 10 spots. They have to start weeding people out, and if someone has a perfect 4.0 vs. a 3.8 they might use that as a reason to cut someone. I say this as someone without a 4.0 from graduate school, but it could affect you in that regard. About half of my profs in grad school gave A's because you were in graduate school -- as along as you checked off all the boxes you were supposed to complete almost everyone got an A. But, the other half of profs were a lot tougher to please, and required not only that you check the boxes but produce, if not original, than damn good work.

I think the OP might also be asking what comes of those who get A-'s and B's once IN a PhD program. To that end, I'm not sure. My MA is not from a very well known or top notch school or whatever, and the people I know here who got anything less than an A usually got it because they earned less than a B but the profs were being nice. The kids who got B's typically didn't stick around too much. I think a lone A- or, god forbid, a B here or there might not matter much, esp if you're taking a particularly hard prof. Also, once your in grad school, you do A LOT more than take course work and sometimes your course work suffers as a result. I had two profs just let me not turn in an assignment because I was out of the country at a conference. Under the radar, of course, but they both held the notion that it was more important for me to go to conferences than worry about a reading response or two. I think this varies by prof obviously, but once you're in a program, if you're teaching, takes 3 courses, working on conferences, a pub or two, in 2 student groups, leading a discussion group, on a search committee, and maybe working on your second language requirement or setting up for comps, if you scrap by with a generous A-, no one will care. This probably also applies when it comes to apps as well.

[asleepawake]

I feel like this speculating about grades, which can't really be compared across programs or professors, is pointless. We're just all December nervous. Rest easy, everyone: Your grades are probably better than mine. I feel pretty confident about my writing sample, but I'm glad to be unable to compare that to anyone else's.

However, I will continue to indulge in this discussion and share what one of my professors told me about "grad school" grades. Basically, A = A, A- = B+, B+ = B, B = C, and B- or lower = F (since you usually need 3.0 to maintain your status as a TA or student). I haven't found this to be true, overall, as standards vary widely by professor, but it makes sense in general.

Edited December 18, 2012 by asleepawake

[waparys]

Yeah I would say, coming from the UK, that it's very difficult to get an "A" (aka over 70 in British terms). I sincerely hope adcomms are aware of this...

[rems]

Yeah I would say, coming from the UK, that it's very difficult to get an "A" (aka over 70 in British terms). I sincerely hope adcomms are aware of this...

One of my profs got her MA in the UK and she said that there were a lot of issues with "interpreting" her transcript to the point that they went and found an English guy to read it. She claims this extra attention is what got her in, so it might work to your advantage.

[asleepawake]

Yeah I would say, coming from the UK, that it's very difficult to get an "A" (aka over 70 in British terms). I sincerely hope adcomms are aware of this...

I really, really wouldn't worry about it. You're not the first applicant from the UK.

[waparys]

I really, really wouldn't worry about it. You're not the first applicant from the UK.

Well it's just my MA (MSc, really). My BA is from the US.

[rising_star]

My MA program had a professor well known for using the full range of grades at his disposal. He also taught the only course everyone was required to take in their first year. He let people do whatever they wanted in class knowing full well that he wouldn't give all of us As. Of the 15 in the class when I took it, 5 people got As. The rest got A-, B+, B, B-, and in one case, a C.

[ProfLorax]

A friend in my MA program had a 3.7 GPA in graduate coursework, which I believe an an A- average. She is now a fully funded PhD candidate (ABD) at Northwestern. My point is, as has been suggested here, there are no absolutes in this process.

I know most of you are applying to Lit PhD's, but this 2007 survey of rhet/comp PhD programs is really interesting; the programs listed their "Highest-ranked criteria for admittance," and while the order varies, you'll notice many programs list the SoP, writing sample, and letters of rec much higher than GPA. I imagine the criteria is similar for other humanities programs.

[DontHate]

I think the more important question might just be why you got the A-... and if everyone else in the class got A's? I'm confused though by the OP's status as a student.. are you an undergrad taking grad level "200" courses.. or a grad student/phD student already who just got an A-? Often, you can figure out the seriousness of the "A-" from older grad students in your program... and getting below an A has almost no immediate effect, but rather the effect of doing poorly (the lower grade that is a result of that) may trickle down into a series of negatives... but often is not just because of the A-. Its a "symptom" and not the "cause" if that makes sense.

I'm a Master's student.

[DontHate]

I just got an email from my trusted prof/advisor in my Master's program, he says A's & A-'s are fine in grad seminars.

While I appreciate all you guys chipping in, it seems that there's a fundamental misunderstanding about my question (probably due to my not phrasing it correctly). I realize that most reasonable schools without horrific grade inflation will award many grades below an A. But the whole point of applying to grad school (and later, being in grad school) for me is trying to be the absolute best. So if only one A is given out in the entire class, that A better be going to me. If I'm not the best then I don't expect to get into the programs I want to go to, and I won't get that tenure track job down the line... etc.

That having been said, Rems: I don't know ANYONE from my program or the other PhD programs at my school (a top-5) who had published or presented anything as an undergrad. Your account of having 2 publications by graduation sounds completely off-the-wall to me. Off-the-wall as in incredibly amazing.

[rems]

I just got an email from my trusted prof/advisor in my Master's program, he says A's & A-'s are fine in grad seminars.

While I appreciate all you guys chipping in, it seems that there's a fundamental misunderstanding about my question (probably due to my not phrasing it correctly). I realize that most reasonable schools without horrific grade inflation will award many grades below an A. But the whole point of applying to grad school (and later, being in grad school) for me is trying to be the absolute best. So if only one A is given out in the entire class, that A better be going to me. If I'm not the best then I don't expect to get into the programs I want to go to, and I won't get that tenure track job down the line... etc.

That having been said, Rems: I don't know ANYONE from my program or the other PhD programs at my school (a top-5) who had published or presented anything as an undergrad. Your account of having 2 publications by graduation sounds completely off-the-wall to me. Off-the-wall as in incredibly amazing.

I meant while a graduate student not as an undergrad. And I also don't have 2 publications either I thought you were asking what happens to people IN graduate school who get A-'s and I was saying that it's sometimes understood because you're working on a lot more than just course work.

[JosephineB]

What is the grade scale like in your guys' programs? At my school there is a university wide policy that 98-100=4.0(A+), 96-97=3.9 (A), 94-95=3.8(A), 92-93=3.7(A-), and so on...

This is not how it was at my undergrad. There anything above a 93 (or 92 or 95 in some departments) was worth a 4.0. I was under the impression that this how most grade scales were set up?

Does my grad program's scale seem strange? It seems unfair that my 97 receives a lower grade point than my friend at a different school's 93/92. I wonder in phd admissions committees recalculate gpas in these cases?

Also what have people heard about expectations for UG language classes taken while in Grad school. For example, I have been earning straight 3.7's in the KILLER dead language I am taking. These grades are not factored into my gpa, but I wonder if the expectation is that I be earning 4.0s because these are technically at the UG level?