How open should I be about having a family?

[+Whiskey]

I'm interviewing next month and I can't decide how open to be about being married with young children. I haven't mentioned my family in any correspondence or in statements because it hasn't really seemed relevant, but now that I'm preparing for weekend-long visits to cities where we might all spend the next five years I wonder if I can or should ask questions about the family-friendliness of cities and programs, what kinds of resources are available to student parents, etc. 

 

I've received two (radically different) pieces of advice from female professors in my department who don't have kids themselves: 1) I took off my wedding band for interviews, and so should you. Like it or not, women are still discriminated against, especially mothers in competitive fields. They'll worry that you won't put in the hours or that you'll have another baby and take time off. Make sure that it doesn't even come up until you have formal offers with funding. 2) This would be a non-issue if you were a man, and it's becoming less and less of an issue overall now that so many women are in academia. Be honest. You're going to get plenty of offers. Do you really want to attend a program that wouldn't have made you an offer if they'd known you had kids?  

 

I think they both make good points, so I'm still unsure of how to approach this. One description of an upcoming interview makes it sound like I'll be surrounded by current grad students and faculty for most of the weekend, with a lot of that time being pretty informal. It seems like, given this format and duration, I would have to go out of my way to lead everyone to believe that I'm planning to move there alone. I wouldn't want people to find out later and feel insulted that I intentionally hid the fact that I have a family. Would they? Anyone have experience dealing with this, either as a student parent or from the other side of the admissions process? I'd appreciate any insights, opinions or suggestions. For what it's worth, I'm mostly applying to social psychology PhD programs (competitive, but not really male-dominated). 

[Usmivka]

Just hide the kids? PhD students with long-term partners and no children have higher than average graduation rates, but those with young children have lower than average graduation rates. I'm looking up the stats right now and will add them in as an edit. The point of this is that an advisor/program is evaluating you at least in part as to whether you will put out good work under their aegis and be likely to graduate and bring them kudos.

 

Edit: Here we go Nettles and Millet, Survey of doctoral student finances, experiences and achievments. Or take this handy infographic from PhD comics based on the Survey.

With children you are:

a) 64% more likely than the average grad student to drop out

b ) 5 months slower to graduate

 

but married without children, you are:

c) 35% more likely to gradauate

d) 4 months quicker to graduate

 

So being married is statistically an advantage, and may be perceived that way, but having young children is the opposite, to greater degree, and mostly negatively perceived .

Edited January 4, 2013 by Usmivka

[Bearcat1]

I have no children, but I do not hide the fact that I'm married, although I don't mention it anywhere but in my "Diversity Statements." My MA thesis, however, is dedicated to my husband, and since it's practically the first page of that, I don't think hiding it would be possible. Many of the people I've spoken to have asked whether my husband will move with me, and that seemed to be a concern. They all seemed relieved when I said yes. (Which makes sense, because I'm sure the likelihood of someone completing a program away from their spouse is significantly lower than if their spouse was local.) As far as children, I can't answer that. I tend to agree with your first bit of advice, however, based on things I've heard from professors with children. 

 

If the faculty you are meeting with (and current students in that department) don't have their own children, asking about family-friendliness may be pointless. Perhaps the graduate division website has information about such things? I wouldn't have a clue about anything like that, since it doesn't pertain to me, but it's quite possible that those things exist. And if anyone was upset with you for hiding that information (should you choose to) you can simply state that you are a private person. Your personal situation should have absolutely no bearing on your admission to a program, and keeping it private is your choice. You're not trying to be sneaky. Good luck with whatever you decide. Having the capacity to pursue a PhD with small children is an incredible thing; keep that in mind whatever the outcome. 

[PhDreams]

I'm on the fence about this issue as well. Not because I am in it, but because I am also a women in academia. if I were you, I wouldn't bring it up until I had formal offers. No matter what anyone tells you, people still believe that children and spouses can and will be a distraction and may impede your ability to fully commit to your work. That being said however, there are many, many women that have children in PhD programs. It can be done. I just think that you can easily find out all the information that you need to from other students and on your own researching the city through family websites. There is no reason to bring it up and potentially compromise what someone might assume about your abilities. You have your chance to disprove these theories once you are in the program. But in order to do that, you actually have to get in.

[Bearcat1]

Just hide the kids? PhD students with long-term partners and no children have higher than average graduation rates, but those with young children have lower than average graduation rates. I'm looking up the stats right now and will add them in as an edit. The point of this is that an advisor/program is evaluating you at least in part as to whether you will put out good work under their aegis and be likely to graduate and bring them kudos.

 

If that's the case then I agree, don't mention having children. If it's a documented statistic, then it is very likely something adcoms will consider (regardless of whether it's fair). 

[iowaguy]

I would not bring it up, it could only hurt IMHO.  You can find out from other sources whether the program/campus/city is family-friendly...

 

If someone at an informal event asks you about it I wouldn't lie (this might come back to bite you), but I wouldn't be forthright with that kind of information if the topic doesn't come up otherwise (which it probably won't with most of your schools)...  YMMV.

[TakeruK]

I would also agree with only "hiding" the kids until you feel it won't hurt your admission chances (e.g. after they give you an offer). I don't think being married is that uncommon. 

 

But I think bringing it up could be helpful after you get your offer. They will usually ask if you have questions, so it provides a good opening to ask as well. I would prefer to do it in person at the visit weekend! I found it helpful that my schools scheduled meetings with students who were married. We are also planning to have children during my PhD but I have not mentioned it officially to any faculty yet (although I'm not trying to hide it now -- there's just no reason to randomly announce these things!). I did bring this up when talking to the current grad students during the visit and they set up an extra meeting for me with students who have children so I can find out what it's like! It was really helpful and I learned a lot about what support systems were available and that was a big factor in our decision. 

 

So, if you want to find out these things but don't feel comfortable talking to the faculty directly, the students and also the administrative staff can be helpful too. There's no guarantee that the information won't make it back to the faculty eventually, but I feel like non-faculty members have a much higher chance of not having negative attitudes towards having children (I think most faculty members nowadays will not be this "old-fashioned" anyways, but the risk is still there). 

 

I really don't think being married is being considered as negatively as it once was. During visits/interviews, whenever schools asked how I felt about their school/city, I was honest and always added that although I was the one attending school, this is a big life decision for both my spouse and I so it was a decision we were going to make together. The schools were all very understanding and supportive. We asked one (nearby) school if both of us could attend the visit weekend and they were very accommodating. My spouse was included in all of the meet-and-greet/social type events and they even came up with suggestions for what she could do while I was in meetings with faculty. 

[amlobo]

I would not bring it up, it could only hurt IMHO.  You can find out from other sources whether the program/campus/city is family-friendly...

 

If someone at an informal event asks you about it I wouldn't lie (this might come back to bite you), but I wouldn't be forthright with that kind of information if the topic doesn't come up otherwise (which it probably won't with most of your schools)...  YMMV.

 

I agree - don't bring it up, but don't lie if asked.  I don't have kids myself, but I feel like my married status is pretty obvious since my transcripts have different names, lol.  (And, I also did thank my husband in a published article...)

[CarlieE]

If it's any help, during my interview trip to my university I mentioned to my (then potential) POI and the co-chair of the dept that I was planning on having kids in grad school, probably at the end of my field work year and just as I begin dissertation writing. I also mentioned that I am not married and am not planning on marrying my partner. I also have visible tattoos which I did not hide AND had to explain that my ex-husband stalked me during my first few years in college which led to an F on a transcript. The faculty/committee members are human too and they've seen/heard/experienced life too. Ultimately, I got accepted with a full ride for 6.5 years. 

 

Another cohort mate (female) has a toddler and at the beginning of the 1st semester announced that she is pregnant. The dept has been very supportive so far. Another cohort mate (male) has 2 grade school aged kids. I've also found out that several other students (females) have had children during the course work years and that hasn't really held anyone back. Or rather, the dept has been cool with allowing people to move at their own pace more or less and has offered time off for those who have needed it. 

 

I think it does depend on the school and the culture of the department. It might help to find out if there are young parents amongst the faculty or if any had their children during grad school or early pre-tenure years. 

Edited January 5, 2013 by HeadCold

[languages-etc]

Married with kids here also...

I've decided that if I get any interviews (pre-acceptance), I will treat the professors as job interviewers, and talk only about my research, academic interests, etc. Just as in a job interview, I wouldn't volunteer info about family or anything personal, unless directly asked. Of course, do not lie to people whom you may spend the next 5+ years with. 

 

srkr, I'd go with the conservative advice in 1). Later you might find out it wasn't necessary to be so cautious, but that is better than the opposite situation. 

 

If you meet other students during a visit they might be a good source of information about the attitude of the department towards students who are married and/or have a family. Also, one graduate school website (not the dept, but the university site) mentioned special provisions for students who adopted or had a child during their program (1 semester leave) and extensive links to parent resources and benefits for spouses. To me that was a good sign. 

[fuzzylogician]

I don't have children so take this with a grain of salt but I'd avoid bringing up any kind of information that could make you less likely to receive an offer. Once you have an offer, you should find out all the relevant information about having a family at your school, including everything from schools and family-friendly neighborhoods to general flexibility of your department to how your potential advisor feels about your having children. There is a chance, of course, that you'll find out that your potential advisor has unrealistic expectations and you can't work with him/her, in which case your offer will have to be discarded. Even in that case, however, it's better to have the offer and be the one doing the rejecting. If you disclose this information early someone who is not necessarily relevant for your future life in the department might advocate against you for these irrelevant reasons. Admissions decisions are made collectively based on many reasons and an intricate logic you can't foresee - don't give them reasons to turn you down.

[EdYouKateOr]

Just hide the kids? PhD students with long-term partners and no children have higher than average graduation rates, but those with young children have lower than average graduation rates. I'm looking up the stats right now and will add them in as an edit. The point of this is that an advisor/program is evaluating you at least in part as to whether you will put out good work under their aegis and be likely to graduate and bring them kudos.   Edit: Here we go Nettles and Millet, Survey of doctoral student finances, experiences and achievments. Or take this handy http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1381'>infographic from PhD comics based on the Survey. With children you are: a) 64% more likely than the average grad student to drop out b ) 5 months slower to graduate   but married without children, you are: c) 35% more likely to gradauate d) 4 months quicker to graduate   So being married is statistically an advantage, and may be perceived that way, but having young children is the opposite, to greater degree, and mostly negatively perceived .

Thanks! That is great information!

[MammaD]

I've been very upfront about the fact that I'm married with kids. My field is almost all women, and I'm older, so there didn't seem any point in hiding. I actually believe I have more to lose by not being successful in a PhD program than a younger, childless version of myself since I have three little ones depending on me to feed, clothe, and house them. Among other things. One of my recommenders told me she actually emphasized that I'm a mother, because she believes I thrive on a sense of service and I do well when I'm busy. She said she used my current status in a master's program while mothering and holding down a full-time job in another field and building my CV in this new one as an example of why I can handle the rigors of PhD work. I also think different fields have different thresholds for what women are expected to be able to do. Unfortunate, but true.

[selecttext]

i'd think that the last thing you'd want is your phd supervisor feeling duped because he or she would have avoided taking you on as a student. it's hard to imagine a committee of people deciding to reject a person based on their parental status - but i guess it must happen.

Edited January 5, 2013 by david.timerman

[+Whiskey]

Thank you for all of your thoughts, suggestions and statistics. I'll avoid any mention of my children until I have an official offer, even during casual conversations, as gross as that feels. I'm sure that completing a PhD program with kids will be difficult, and we completed our family and got the kids through babyhood before I began grad school with this in mind. 

 

The only other thing I'm worried about related to interviewing and kids is being asked why I only took 12 hours during a couple of semesters if I didn't have a job. I'm afraid my schedule might not look very rigorous during that time. My daughter was born two weeks before finals and I was up several times per night the following semester, so I kept my courseload relatively light. I carried a 4.0 that year and conducted some independent research, but that probably doesn't seem very impressive if the potential advisor is not aware that I was doing anything else at all. IF that question comes up (not sure how likely it is), do I say I just wanted to focus my efforts on those particular classes, mumble something vague about family obligations, or at that point do I have to admit to having a child or risk someone feeling "duped" later on? 

[MammaD]

I think being honest will demonstrate that you take both school and motherhood very seriously and have found a way to give each the time they deserve.

[fuzzylogician]

The only other thing I'm worried about related to interviewing and kids is being asked why I only took 12 hours during a couple of semesters if I didn't have a job. I'm afraid my schedule might not look very rigorous during that time. My daughter was born two weeks before finals and I was up several times per night the following semester, so I kept my courseload relatively light. I carried a 4.0 that year and conducted some independent research, but that probably doesn't seem very impressive if the potential advisor is not aware that I was doing anything else at all. IF that question comes up (not sure how likely it is), do I say I just wanted to focus my efforts on those particular classes, mumble something vague about family obligations, or at that point do I have to admit to having a child or risk someone feeling "duped" later on? 

 

I would encourage you not to lie, if asked point blank. You could simply refer to personal/family obligations that forced you to slow down, and I doubt anyone will ask what those were. But from my experience with interviews, I was never asked about anything in particular from my transcripts. Conversations were always centered around the present and future - what are my interests, why I want to pursue a PhD, why at that particular school.

[TakeruK]

Definitely don't lie if asked directly, but I don't think they will ask directly whether or not you're married, or have kids (or plan to have kids) etc in a formal interview. These questions are illegal in job interviews so I don't see why they would be okay in an admission interview. Of course, although technically admission isn't a "job", since most admissions go hand-in-hand with being hired as an TA or RA, I'd argue that the etiquette of job interviews should apply to admission interviews. 

 

Since the employer doesn't have a "right to know" whether or not you have a family/kids, then I don't think they can feel "duped" if it turns out you do have a family. But things don't always work as they should and if they do ask the question, it's probably better to be honest and gauge their reaction. But I can understand the circumstances where one might want to "deflect" by just mentioning personal circumstances without providing detail. 

[Usmivka]

Lots of great points here. Other than the stats above, I can only speak from anecdote knowing a couple grad students with families, but programs have been fairly supportive of them (although in one case, the adviser seems to be less so). I wouldn't advocate dishonesty, or even deflection, but as TakeruK said, this is more like a job interview and the question shouldn't come up unless you bring it up yourself--that is what I and others are advocating against. You will have plenty of time to get into the nitty gritty of how this would actually work once you have an acceptance in hand. As long as you and your potential adviser have clear expectations before you start your program, no one is going to get hurt feelings that you didn't bring it up until you were accepted and weighing the pros and cons of each program you get into (some of which have to do with your family).

Edited January 7, 2013 by Usmivka

[menadue1978]

I'd get your education and career first....families are best afterwards. 

You'll have more time to dedicate to studies without little kids running around there are SOOO many responsibilites with starting a family....my mum started a family when she was only 20 something, and she said herself, she felt she didn't do as good a job as she would have if she were older (you mellow out and are more knowledgeable) ^.^

[+Whiskey]

Anyway.

 

Thanks again to everyone who responded thoughtfully. I know asking questions about marital or parental status during normal job interviews is improper, but a few of the schools I applied to asked for marital status right on the application, so I wasn't sure what guidelines, if any, are followed for doctoral interviews, or what else I might be expected to disclose during the process. This thread has clarified things a lot, and I feel better prepared to steer around any family-related discussions during interview weekends, and have an idea of how to get all the information I need later on, to make final decisions. 

[Angua]

I think you've gotten some good advice. I just want to add another factor to think about: do you think you'd be happy in a program where "admitting" that you have children would hurt your chances?  I know we're all focused on getting in, and nobody wants to say something that could negatively impact your admission odds.  But if you don't tell them you have kids, you risk not knowing ahead of time if your program/advisor/colleagues are likely to make disparaging assumptions about motherhood.  I've struggled with some similar questions ("Do I tell them XYZ up front, even though it might hurt me?"), and I just keep reminding myself that a program where I can't get in as myself is not a program I want to devote the next 5-7 years of my life to.  Good luck, whatever you decide to do!

[fuzzylogician]

I think you've gotten some good advice. I just want to add another factor to think about: do you think you'd be happy in a program where "admitting" that you have children would hurt your chances?  I know we're all focused on getting in, and nobody wants to say something that could negatively impact your admission odds.  But if you don't tell them you have kids, you risk not knowing ahead of time if your program/advisor/colleagues are likely to make disparaging assumptions about motherhood.  I've struggled with some similar questions ("Do I tell them XYZ up front, even though it might hurt me?"), and I just keep reminding myself that a program where I can't get in as myself is not a program I want to devote the next 5-7 years of my life to.  Good luck, whatever you decide to do!

 

There is truth to your concern, but keep in mind that admissions decisions are often made at a departmental level. The difference between getting admitted or rejected can sometimes be all about having someone willing to go to bat for you. On the flip side of this way of doing things, other adcom members, who are championing other students, might be looking for obvious flaws in your application. Make sure not to give them any. The person arguing against your acceptance may (often) have nothing to do with your work in the department, in case you're accepted. Because of this, I recommend first getting the offer and then finding out how the relevant people in the department - your potential advisors and others who will likely sit on your committee - feel about whatever issue you are worried about. Do it once the odds are in your favor: when they are courting you, not before.

[TakeruK]

But if you don't tell them you have kids, you risk not knowing ahead of time if your program/advisor/colleagues are likely to make disparaging assumptions about motherhood.  I've struggled with some similar questions ("Do I tell them XYZ up front, even though it might hurt me?"), and I just keep reminding myself that a program where I can't get in as myself is not a program I want to devote the next 5-7 years of my life to.  Good luck, whatever you decide to do!

 

This is a good point. But, I still would advocate for keeping XYZ a "secret" until all funding/admission decisions are made. This is because, personally, I wouldn't necessarily NEED to be in a department where 100% of the professors are supportive of XYZ. If it's only a small fraction, I could avoid working with them or having them on my committee. However, during the application process, we have no idea who is influential. If all of them happen to be on the committee that year, or the subgroup assigned to review our application is biased against XYZ, then it could hurt our application. 

 

By waiting until all decisions are made (I'd wait until the visit weekend, when we are the ones making the decision!) then we can use XYZ as a way to filter out programs/schools instead of them using XYZ to filter us. It also allows us to provide more context to XYZ (if necessary) and basically, more control over how XYZ affects us. The visit is also a good time to determine whether there are even people who are against XYZ and whether they would make up the majority (or hold influential positions) in the department.

 

This might not be a valid idea everywhere, but I'm speaking from experience in programs where your supervisor (and to a smaller extent, your thesis committee) is really the only faculty member that has a big impact on your life over the entire 5+ years. Even if the prof down the hall does not like me because of XYZ, I will probably never be in a position where he or she has a chance to do negative things to me based on XYZ (as long as I don't put them on my committee).

[Knox]

I'm a single mom to a 2 year old girl, and I've gotten mixed reviews about this as well. I had kind of assumed that it would be detrimental to mention her, as she will obviously always come first, before a PhD or anything else. Plus, if I have to move across the country alone with a toddler, that can obviously be seen as a risk to such a big commitment. Some faculty members that I spoke with at my alma mater said that they would not personally care that I had a child, but that I should not give admissions commitees any reason to turn me down. Others told me that it would show motivation and tenacity that I still graduated Magna Cum Laude while working full time as a single parent.

 

In the end, I briefly mentioned the fact that I had a daughter in my SOP, but only because it directly related to my interests/goals and pertained to the questions asked. I was extremely nervous to submit it, and I know I took a huge risk by virtually saying that I would be moving to a new city, alone with a 2 year old, and into a rigorous PhD program. So far, I've been invited to interview at one of my reach schools and top choices, so it obviously didn't leave too bad of an impression. I'm feeling a little better about it now, so hopefully other schools will follow suit.