Online PhDs--worth anything at all?

[sje]

Ok.. Just putting this out there here because I want to hear what everyone else has to say.

 

A member of my extended family is pursuing her PhD in psychology at an online-only university. She pays out of pocket and has not done any original research in the 2 plus years that she's been enrolled. Most of what she does is online coursework and paper writing, but every few months she travels to a random location to do 'clinicals' for 4 or 5 days.

 

This, to me, does not resemble what true doctoral study is and she absolutely has no respect for research beyond that she uses published work to write her papers. This is, if anything, a crumby undergrad's view. Worse, she's always bragging to the entire family that she's "getting her PhD," and because she's the first in the family to pursue graduate education of any kind, they all think that what she's doing is the real deal. This creates problems for me when I try to explain to people that I'm applying to PhD programs--real ones--and that if I get in, I will get a stipend because I won't be able to work. My family just doesn't get this. They say "but, _____ works a full time job..." and "it can't be that much; _____ does it at night!" I'm also kind of insulted on a personal level by her bragging, because I'm fully committed to an academic lifestyle...

 

So, what does everyone think about these online PhDs? Are they worth anything? Am I wrong to feel that what she's doing is inferior to traditional doctoral education? And, if anyone's got it, I could use some advice on how to convince my entrenched working-class family that what she does is not akin to what I'll be hopefully doing in September without insulting her?

[CarlieE]

Your cousin/relative and family have been... misled. Online PhDs or online degrees in general aren't accredited or considered academically legitimate. When was the last time you saw an article cite "...a study done by the online university-of-some-mythical-bird..." or go to a conference where a professor was from an online university? As you've mentioned the workload and format of online universities is significantly different and much less demanding. 

 

I empathize with you about getting your family to understand how it works. My SO is the first one going to grad school and he has a hard time even explaining why it's something worth doing. I'm also the first in my family to do a PhD and my parents have NO CLUE how the system works. My dad recently asked me "what's "objective" mean?" (They don't speak english very well.)

 

Sometimes you just have to say, "hey, this is the way I'm doing it." and let what they say roll off your back. The may come around to "getting it" or maybe they won't.

 

Chances are, when you get in somewhere good and get a stipend, your family might question this online-uni-going relative and ask "hey, so where's YOUR stipend? So-and-so gets a monthly check for GOING to school. How come you have to get loans?" 

 

I don't think you have to say very much about getting your family to see the difference. Time will show that you've got the "better" deal. 

[Usmivka]

I think you already know the answer to this one. What you are describing is slightly above your average diploma mill, but not much, and I have to wonder if it is even accredited--if not, you have the only info you need to share. It doesn't sound like she has an advisor or committee, so it is hard to imagine her degree being taken seriously, and I doubt any of those manuscripts she is writing are destined for publication. Actually, more than anything this sounds like a "certificate" program, not something that grants a degree. Your relative is paying out of pocket for a PhD (while paying for an MA happens, paying for your own PhD is more rare). Regardless if there is no research, there is no PhD, as this is the singular defining feature of the degree (although let's give her the benefit of the doubt and say she is going to do all her research in years 3-5).

 

I don't think there is a way for your family to actually understand what you are trying to do and retain any respect for your relative's endeavor. If they don't get it through your explanation, they'll get it while you are at school. I don't think you really need to do anything beyond go to grad school and things will shake out without you coming across as condescending or dismissive of your relative's goals and achievements. If she recognizes a mistake in her understanding, great, everyone wins. If she persists in advertising her approach as a serious endeavor, no one will take her seriously and people may think even less of her, but it won't be your fault.

 

In the meantime, If you prefer a more active approach to debunking your family's misunderstanding, share this handy article, "What is a PhD?", from the Nature family. Say this will explain what you want to do, and that as you are applying to US institutions, you will be following a "US model," the most rigorous and prestigious of the described approaches, and it will take a minimum of 5 years. The differences between any of the PhD tracks in the models described herein and what your relative is doing will be glaringly obvious to anyone who cares to read it (it is a short letter, no jargon and designed with an international audience in mind, so it shouldn't be too bad for ESL folks if that is a consideration). Note particularly paragraph 6 and it's message about pay as you go PhDs, even in actual, accredited programs.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Usmivka

[juilletmercredi]

-She pays out of pocket

-She doesn't do any research…in 2 years

-Her clinicals are only 4-5 days every few months

 

There are some doctoral programs (typically not PhDs) that are more practice-focused than research, but even in those the students do at least a bit of original research.  However, your relative doesn't even sound like she's getting proper clinical/practical training.  I have friends in clinical programs and they do clinical work several times a week.

 

So no, the degree isn't worth anything - she certainly won't get a tenure-track academic position or get hired to an institution like the VA or something to do clinical work.  Her program may not even be APA-accredited; even if it is, she'll probably be limited to private practice at the very best.  However, if this is the first exposure your family has had to doctoral studies, you may never be able to convince them otherwise.  I too have a working-class family who doesn't really understand the whole academic thing.  They simply won't.  You need to learn how to just let this roll off your back and continue on your path with your own determination.

 

If you must, one way that you could try to do it is to clarify that her program is focused on preparing clinical practitioners, whereas yours is focused on producing researchers, therefore it's different.

[sje]

Thanks, guys. The advice and clarifications are really helpful. And, not to sound like a jerk, but I'm relieved to hear that her program is as crappy as I thought it was.

[amandawhite]

While not all PhD programs can be offered online, there are quite a few which can.  For example, someone looking for a medical degree cannot get it online since it requires a lot of hands on training.  On the other hand things like business degrees or even PhD’s in technology can often be done either entirely or at least mostly online.  Contacting institutions like Walden University or University of Phoenix to learn of how many different online PhD programs they have available is the best way to start the process of attaining a PhD.

[bamafan]

I don't mean to be derisive to people who attend for-profit institutions like Phoenix, as going to grad school at all shows initiative and drive, but I mean, they're borderline illegal. While I'm sure the education itself is adequate to good, the way the system operates is really appalling; it's basically a giant scam to funnel financial aid from the government into their pockets. That's the part of the unfortunate reason they're not so highly regarded in reputation. I think it's a great thing they offer accessible education to people who would not otherwise be able to pursue it by circumstance or means, but I find the operation of these universities to be sketchy.

[languages-etc]

In this situation it's really your relative who is losing out -- perhaps even being taken advantage of. If it is one of those for-profit universities, her degree won't be worth much after she graduates and she really doesn't have the knowledge and expertise that a doctor of philosophy in her field should have. I feel sorry for her. 

 

That being said, she WILL have a PhD, and she DID do the work required by her institution, so I'd try to be gracious and not say anything negative about her. Most people who have not been through the PhD grind won't understand the difference between her degree and a research PhD, and you'll sound petulant. You can just clarify that you're going for some very competitive programs where they actually pay you to attend. 

[Mandalpaca]

I agree that the online PhD program you are describing does not sound like an accredited program. However, not all online programs are "bad". I am attending a MSN program online at at university that is also a b&m school, accredited. The

courses are the same as the b&m courses.

[asleepawake]

So, she's already devoted two years of her life to this... but as family, shouldn't you consider filling her in on this stuff before she wastes more time/money?  She may be buying into the lie that she will get a great job with this degree, or not really understand the importance of the differences between an academic degree and one of this sort. If you tell her she might respond with denial, because she's invested a lot into this, but it still is worth telling her. Conversely, she may be aware that this degree is is from an online for-profit, and she may simply want the degree for other reasons or she has realistic expectations of what it can get for her. But... I think you should talk to her in a non-threatening way, because if she's been had, the debt from some of these for profit degrees can do a lot to destroy someone's financial future.

[t1racyjacks]

So, she's already devoted two years of her life to this... but as family, shouldn't you consider filling her in on this stuff before she wastes more time/money?  She may be buying into the lie that she will get a great job with this degree, or not really understand the importance of the differences between an academic degree and one of this sort. If you tell her she might respond with denial, because she's invested a lot into this, but it still is worth telling her. Conversely, she may be aware that this degree is is from an online for-profit, and she may simply want the degree for other reasons or she has realistic expectations of what it can get for her. But... I think you should talk to her in a non-threatening way, because if she's been had, the debt from some of these for profit degrees can do a lot to destroy someone's financial future.

I'm with this. I think it's just a drain of cash. Even with a good PhD, jobs are scarce....

[Darth.Vegan]

I have a similar problem. A friend of mine (not close at all) is working on her PhD from the Chicago school of professional psychology, while not an online Program is a total diploma mill with a similar format as described above. I have wanted to warn this person that their degree might not be worth the time or expense but I don't know how to broach the subject without sounding like a pretentious dick.

[bamafan]

I have a similar problem. A friend of mine (not close at all) is working on her PhD from the Chicago school of professional psychology, while not an online Program is a total diploma mill with a similar format as described above. I have wanted to warn this person that their degree might not be worth the time or expense but I don't know how to broach the subject without sounding like a pretentious dick.

 

I'm not familiar with this school, but Wiki suggests that it's a not-for-profit and may be legit. 

[Quant_Liz_Lemon]

Which branch of Chicago?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/15/chicago-school-of-professional-psychology_n_2140757.html

[SeriousSillyPutty]

It seems like the obvious and friendliest way to distinguish them is to point out that, like juilletmercredi said, you are doing a research PhD, designed to train people for research (generating new information) whereas hers is about applying current research (consuming others' information). You are applying to programs that are "hiring" you to produce a product (new knowledge), and it is a long-term commitment on their end, so naturally the application process and the grad school process itself will be more intense.

If her program is clinical (sort of), would it be fair to compare it to dental school? (Apologies if this is ignorant. I know nothing about the rigors of dental school; I'm just guessing it's more practice-based and less "academic".) She's paying for training that will help her get a job, so she's investing in education (which I'm sure requires hard work) but doesn't have an institution investing in her.

[MissC]

It sounds like the above posters have done a pretty good job of outlining the differences in online vs in-person Phd work.  I agree with most of what has been posted but also feel compelled to point out that learning is shifting in that direction and as newer scholars, we need to be prepared to adjust to the available technology or risk being left in the dust.  This statement doesn't refer to the for-profit diploma mills- which make me sad more than anything because of the empty promises that snag so many who are wanting to make a better life for themselves. Rather, it refers to some of the bigger, accredited schools that have begun to develop their online undergrad and masters offerings in addition to their traditional classroom settings.  Also, I would say that in general, it seems more logical to offer taught degrees (or at least some courses) online, while research degrees clearly require a "physical" presence in order to conduct the research, build relationships, etc.

 

Personally, I wouldn't look to complete a Phd online for 2 reasons- 1: funding opportunities are non-existent and 2: I want to be able to get a job in academia when I complete the degree and those who are currently doing the hiring for those positions are not likely to hire anyone with an online degree.

 

I do think we need to keep our eyes on these types of programs (larger, accredited ones at least).  I'd hate to see technology and access develop in a way that leaves traditional scholars in the dust because we have refused to acknowledge the potential for education and access via online learning. Some folks may not be aware of this but certain institutions offer online degrees (bach and masters) that will appear on transcripts no different than degrees earned on site. In terms of applications for advanced degrees, this means that online learners will "appear" identical to traditional learners. This means that while reviewing applications, adcoms may not be able to tell that certain applicants earned a degree online at all- unless some other factor gives it away. I don't like this at all. There is a level of deception occuring IMO, but it is happening and I think that a lot of people are unaware.

 

I'm not supporting or opposing these types of schools- just wanted to point out that education is changing right now and we need to be prepared for what that might mean.  In response to your specific predicament, I think time will tell the most about your degree versus her online degree.  Jobs and opportunities will lean heavily towards you. Until then, you may have to bite your tongue or just try to explain to them that Phd opportunities are different depending on the career goals of each person. You are simply applying to programs that produce a different kind of scholar. Finally, I agree with a couple of the above posters- more than anything, I feel bad for her, as she appears to be investing a huge amount of time and money into a program that is unlikely to offer much in return.

Edited March 11, 2013 by C-Diggy

[Sophie_B]

I respect everyone's opinion but I have to say that I've done both in class and online courses towards my graduate program and the online courses certainly weren't easy if not harder. Also the schools that offer online programs has to get an approval of the ministry of education to offer such programs and certainly worth to take them. The courses are well evaluated. I remember my supervisor said once he was the member of the committee to evaluate online courses the University of Athabasca offers. Good thing about online PhD programs is they are offered for the professionals who are already doing some work in that field. Well, if you are concerned about your friend or cousin's degree why don't you just ask some questions about the program and what she know about it. If they are very proud of what they are doing (I think they have right to be) then leave them alone and wait to see what happens or if that bothers you, maybe just don't pay attention. If you chose and afford the time spent for in school PhD program, that's awesome, but the personal choice should matter.  Let them do what they are enjoying to do. Online education is also = education. I got my graduate degree from one of the top universities in Canada and all of my online courses were accredited.

[ExponentialDecay]

I honor personal agency, but I don't think that feeling proud of what one is doing is enough justification to take out hundreds of thousands in loans for a degree that's not worth the paper it's printed on. This is how lives get ruined, people.

My question to people who are defending this online PhD thing is, if society at large is still struggling to accept bachelor and masters-level degrees done online as legitimate, how long do you think it will take the academic public, which is notoriously conservative, to accept online PhDs, regardless of whether they are more practice-based or not? I mean, let's be prepared for the future, whatever, but there are people doing these programs right now. Should we use them as sacrificial lambs? And, I mean, there's a difference between doing a 2-year practical masters partially online, and a 5+ year PhD fully online.

[TakeruK]

I think what Sophie_B is describing is a lot different than what the original post was describing. Athabasca University is a real and accredited online-only university in Canada and I think an online degree from that institution is still useful. Sure, there will still be some people that think it's not the same as a "brick and mortar" university and in some ways, they will be right. An online-only graduate degree will lack some of the important aspects of graduate education that involve "residency" in your program, attending seminars and such. This is why many graduate programs have a minimum residency requirement (usually 1 year in Canada). 

However, Sophie_B is also describing a hybrid system that is also very common in Canada, where you take some (but not all) of your courses online. This is common at all levels. I don't think there is any issue with taking distance-ed / online courses and in fact, our transcripts do not indicate whether or not the course was online or in-person. For example, at UBC, it's possible to take a few courses either in a physical classroom or in an online classroom. The medium of instruction is different but the end result is the same.

And, online-only degrees do serve some purpose. As Sophie_B pointed out, they are great for working professionals looking for additional accreditation. I think you would attend an online-only PhD program for a very different reason than a "brick and mortar" PhD program. For example, if you are working in a field already and you just want to upgrade your education and accreditation, I think an online-only programs are the right choice. However, if you want to be an academic and aim for a career in academia and especially for tenure track positions, then an online degree isn't going to work. It's not that the education is not up to snuff but you're missing the networking and collegiality and sharing of ideas/collaborations that you really need to succeed in academia.

Finally, I feel the need to point out a couple of differences between these programs in Canada and in the US.

1. In Canada, tuition is much lower. We probably pay around $6000 (arts/science programs) to $10,000 (business programs) per year in tuition and fees. So, a PhD will cost (without considering living expenses) something like $25,000-$40,000 over 4 years, which is certainly affordable if you do it online while working full-time in a professional career to pay the rest of your bills.

2. In Canada, the number of schools that are just there to rip you off is way smaller. I think the response to the original post was appropriate because so many US schools are for-profit only and they exist to separate hard working students from hundreds of thousands of dollars. But in Canada, there are way fewer such scams and if you choose an online program attached to a brick-and-mortar university, or if you choose the one highly reputable online-only University that I know about (Athabasca) then it is fine.

In summary--I think Sophie_B is right to point out that some of the responses here seem a little snobby when you say "You can't do a PhD if it's not at a brick and mortar school!" or "It's not a real PhD if it's online or part time!". I just want to add that a PhD program designed for an academic/research position is probably the mainstream PhD program but it's not the only one. It's okay that some people want to take online-only PhD programs that will basically provide accreditation but not much else. (As long as they are not being lead to scam programs!)

[ExponentialDecay]

Regarding the original post, I think the numerous red flags - first generation college student, online(!) Psychology(!) PhD(!), no research component, bullshit "practicals" - indicate that there is cause for concern. Fortunately, it's not OP's situation.

Regarding your valuable remarks, I completely agree with you that context is key. I also think that Sophie_B is missing some vital context, and also that a blanket statement such as "if they are proud of what they are doing, give them the go-ahead" is wrong in practically any situation. Hypothetically, person x is justified in feeling proud of what they're doing (everyone's feelings are valid!), but that doesn't make what they're doing right. Saying otherwise is feeding into a rhetoric where getting any old degree is good in and of itself, even if the intention is morally sound. 

I just want to add that the American PhD model is incredibly draining (and devastating for those of us who take ourselves out of the workforce for 5+ years and then strike out on the market, as opposed to indeed doing the PhD part-time, as is the case in many other countries, and working in a day job that doesn't pay at most $30k and doesn't involve daily interaction with entitled undergrads), but the online debate needs a lot more context than we're giving it here. 

[dr. t]

I am 1) confused about the resurrection of a 2 year old thread for no clear reason and 2) unsure what bearing the quality or difficulty of online classwork has on the quality of a PhD. Did some UPhoenix PR person stumble onto this thread or something?