Sniffing out a poor letter of rec?

[Lapin]

Hi everyone, I've been lurking for a while and recently decided to join in.

I've been wondering if anyone here has had their admissions chances screwed by a crappy or careless letter of recommendation before, and if so, how did you manage to find out that it was the element bringing your applications down, and what did you do about it?

I'm afriad this might be the case for me. I've received a string of rejections despite having submitted what I believed were strong application packets, and my credentials are very solid (MA from a well-known program, excellent academic records from BA and MA, strong writing sample, high GREs, relevant work experience). The feedback I got on my applications from former advisors was limited but entirely positive.

There is, however, the matter of "letter writer X," my MA thesis advisor. This individual is well-meaning and enthusiastic about my work but extremely scatterbrained. I have never had a communication with "letter writer X" that was not riddled with typos, such as spelling peoples' names entirely wrong. (Such errors do not appear in X's scholarship, though.) I did in fact have the opportunity to look at a letter "X" written me previously (X, perhaps accidentally, CCed me on the email with the rec attached) and it was very enthusiastic about my research and potential but included several typos, grammatical errors, missing puncutation, etc.

How do you think this would look to an ad comm? Would the errors, X's inability to spell my name right, etc. completely undermine the positive things X has to say? Is there any way for me to find out about X's letter (I waived my rights)? Should I ask X about it directly? I'm sure I'd never get into a decent grad program without X's recommendation -- this person is the only one who can directly comment on my scholarship and interests well at the MA level.

(I suppose this is also a cautionary tale about choosing the advisors you work with very, VERY carefully.....)

Thanks everyone.

[otakupaul]

If your recommender has work published and is an established academic then I don't think typos or grammatical errors will make any difference. Despite how harshly we students are graded and criticised, a lot of academics aren't particularly academic. Some of mine could barely use a computer, couldn't spell and could barely dress themselves. One of mine even asked me to proof read and spell-check his recommendation to me and it had me seriously worried he was dyslexic. I guess thats what TA's are for.

I do however have the same worry as you. I found my relationships with my lecturers became quite strained at certain points (I often forget I need them for recommendations when speaking my mind), im more worried that they might have some negative criticisms of me and my work, I just hope that if they do they don't put it in my recommendation!

Im hoping for some feedback but from what ive heard its not likely and I especially wouldn't imagine that they would rat out one of their own. The recommendations are the part of my application I worry most about really.

just my 2 bits

[Lapin]

This advisor is not a superstar, but sufficiently well published. I'm not sure if the name would ring an immediate bell in the minds of the committee, though.

Anyway, your perspective, I guess, is quite different from mine... Whenever I get an email or other communication with tons of careless mistakes, typos, grammatical errors, I definitely question the judgment of the person who sent it.

[highered09]

As someone who works in admission I can promise you that the writing ability of one of your recommenders would never be held against you during the application process. If they wrote negative things, yes. If they can't spell for crap, no.

[PChem]

I told my LOR providers that I needed letters for 5 schools, even though I never actually intended to apply to the 5th one. I asked all of my letter providers to write paper rec letters, and sign and seal across the back of the envelope. I opened the letter from one professor (the other profs let me read the letters they wrote) for the 5th school. Nothing bad, but not wonderful either. So, I asked another professor to write a LOR. Most schools will let you gather all of your LORs and mail them in one packet--as long as they are signed across the seal.

[ec86]

I told my LOR providers that I needed letters for 5 schools, even though I never actually intended to apply to the 5th one. I asked all of my letter providers to write paper rec letters, and sign and seal across the back of the envelope. I opened the letter from one professor (the other profs let me read the letters they wrote) for the 5th school. Nothing bad, but not wonderful either. So, I asked another professor to write a LOR. Most schools will let you gather all of your LORs and mail them in one packet--as long as they are signed across the seal.

Isn't that unethical?

[frankdux]

Isn't that unethical?

yeah, i'd say so.

[fuzzylogician]

My thesis adviser was behaving a bit flaky throughout the application process. At some point I wasn't sure she would submit het letter on time (if at all) nor if she would be able to write a good letter during the short period she had left herself to do it in. About a week before my first deadline she suddenly tried to back out of writing the letter altogether, then changed her mind again and said she would do it...I decided to have a fourth person write me a letter, just to be on the safe side. I ended up having four recs (submitted on/after the due date, but who's counting ); I didn't see any of my letters but I've had several profs comment on my strong recs, so I guess it turned out ok in the end. I know you can't *not* have your adviser write a letter for you, but if you suspect that this is what damaged your application, maybe the solution could be having an additional letter to balance out the bad one.

[GraduateSchoolNut]

I don't think typos matter as much as what they are saying, especially, as someone said, if he or she is established.

Regarding the person that opened the letters, that is a violation of ethics and trust. I really don't even know what to say to that.

[rising_star]

I know you can't *not* have your adviser write a letter for you, but if you suspect that this is what damaged your application, maybe the solution could be having an additional letter to balance out the bad one.

When I applied to MA programs, I did not ask my undergrad thesis advisor for a letter of recommendation. I got in with funding at 4 of 6 schools. Your mileage may vary, of course, but not having your advisor write one isn't automatically the kiss of death.

[daveyinaz]

Regarding the person (PChem) who opened up the letter of recommendations.........you are my new hero.....ignore all negative feedback.....

[belowthree]

Regarding the person (PChem) who opened up the letter of recommendations.........you are my new hero.....ignore all negative feedback.....

And my opinion of people in fields that feed to med school plummets further...

(Yes, I know of many individuals in these fields that seem like fine people who are dedicated to their education, but I'm starting to be unable to shake the feeling they're the exceptions.)

[commcycle]

I know the feeling. My MA thesis adviser wrote a LOR for my first pass at doctoral programs. I saw it ahead of time (he let me) and I submitted it with my packet.

I was rejected from every program. Later on I took a second look at his LOR and realized how terrible it was. It didn't even mention that he was my thesis chair, or the research we worked on! He was also vague in areas where he could have been enthusiastic, and it was peppered with general statements such as how I can quickly absorb knowledge, that kind of thing. Strangely, in retrospect, my best LOR that year was from the person who knew me the least, but was the most impressed with my abilities.

Your LORs should be balanced, specific, and enthusiastic. Anything less is putting you out on a limb.

OP, you are probably right in your inkling that your MA adviser is the problem. My advice would be not to sniff around. You don't want to get the kind of reputation that would come with that being known by anybody. I'd just move on and start working no a new crop of references. Getting references that the committee knows is also priceless. Unfortunately, name recognition can be everything, especially in top programs. If your reference can talk about a major research project you've undertaken, that's gold as well, because it shows to the committee that you have dedication and autonomy.

[professor2000]

In some cases, my references made another copy so that I could see it. You NEED to know what these people are saying about you, because it could make or break you. I had a similar situation happen to me. One of my references wrote a piss poor letter, that was about 2 or 3 paragraphs of "nothing" basically, lol. I surely did NOT use that letter. Its not that she didn't have nice things to say....she didn't either 1) no know how to say it in an effective way, or 2) was in a rush and just threw it together. And I should not be penalized for her carelessness. You might say, "I could have chosen a better reference"...however, sometimes you don't know how their LOR will look, until its already done...lol.

So with that said....I think its okay to ask for one extra letter. I personally don't consider it unethical...but that's just me. 8)

[flowerchicken]

Re: the person who opened the LOR - its called strategy. You are a hero in my book too. Dont listen to the haters. You gotta take care of you.

Thanks for the idea!

[belowthree]

So with that said....I think its okay to ask for one extra letter. I personally don't consider it unethical...but that's just me. 8)

If you want to ask to see their letters, ask to see their letters. Most people will be happy to let you see them. It is unethical to if you don't ask to see their letters and then go ahead and look at them anyways.

There's a big difference. I don't have a problem with people reading their letters if needed, I have with people doing so in ways that aren't appropriate. If you want to see the letter, ask for it. If the person says no, that should tell you something and you'll need to rely on your judgment at that point.

Re: the person who opened the LOR - its called strategy. You are a hero in my book too. Dont listen to the haters. You gotta take care of you.

Thanks for the idea!

No it's called a race to the bottom where everyone starts engaging in this type of bullshit leading to several things:

1) LoRs become less useful for adcoms

2) Anyone who remains ethical loses until the rules change where everyone can view the letters

3) Professors stop writing letters for students because their students keep opening them

4) Professors don't give students copies of letters and insist on

4a) Mailing the LoRs themselves thereby wasting their own time and decreasing the number of people they are able to write letters for.

4b) Only writing LoRs for schools with online LoR processes which allow them to submit the letters directly without giving students a copy, for students who want to apply to schools that don't have online forms, this now becomes a problem as those schools are deemed too much trouble to write letters for.

In my field some of these outcomes are already becoming commonplace because of people like you who can't be trusted not to open a letter when you were asked not to.

Your childish and selfish behavior has real impact on other students trying to do the right thing. That's why there's haters and that's why it matters.

At least one of my referees wasn't interesting in submitting letters to any school that he couldn't submit to online. He did this because he's several states away from me and didn't want to have to deal with physical paper for anything, not because he was worried about what I might do with letters, but I can tell you that it would be frustrating to have had my other LoR writers demand the same thing. Luckily I had four, so some schools just ended up getting three letters. But could you imagine what would have happened if two people had demanded this because they couldn't trust me not to appropriately deal with their letters? (That said, I gave them envelops to mail so I never actually got copies of my letter except from the writers who chose to share their letter with me.) But I'm sure even you have the brainpower to figure out how this type of gamesmanship makes the world a worse place in the long run.

[engguy]

wow... I came across this thread on a bored and procrastinating sunday afternoon and felt compelled to comment.

First, the idea that one subpar letter -- which you haven't even actually seen -- could make or break your chances strikes me as one of those all-too-familiar rationalizations that keep cropping up for why someone hasn't gotten in. The bottom line is your app. wasn't good enough, but you need to look around and blame anyone but yourself (and there may be a reason someone wrote you a less-than-stellar rec letter!).

Letters are important, sure, but not the most important thing in your package -- and I would venture to guess that any adcom knows that you are likely to have at least one writer who is not as enthusiastic / knowledgeable about you as a scholar among the three. Logic dictates that this will be the case -- in the course of your career as an undergrad or even MA student, you are unlikely to find three mentors who are all highly enthusiastic about you and so on top of it that they put tons of effort into dotting all the i's in their letters of rec.

Second, and more importantly, there's this thing called trust. When I was applying to MA programs after a looong time out of the game, I had only one potential writer remaining from my undergrad days. Aside from that, I was lucky to find three or four others in the field willing to write for me, but ended up deciding whom to choose based on trust. Who did I trust to write me an unabashedly enthusiastic letter? I ended up going with some who were lesser known than others because of this, but it worked out fine. One of them, incidentally, insisted that I not read her letter, for precisely the reasons others have raised above. She'd had too many students who wound up not getting accepted come back and complain to her about her letters. Obviously, this trust goes both ways -- they trust you to not read their letters and not blame them for why you didn't get in, and you need to trust that the person will write you a reasonably strong letter. If there's any doubt about this, don't ask.

Look, the process is painful and degrading enough as it is. Don't make it sleazy as well.

[fuzzylogician]

I was talking about an MA thesis adviser who I am TAing for and who has known me for 5 years. I am pretty sure it would have raised questions had I not had her write me a letter.

I would agree that one bad letter is unlikely to disqualify you altogether, but if it's from a well-known figure in the field it does stand to do you considerable damage. The opposite is also true: I have a friend who was accepted to 1/8 programs she applied to and her now-adviser told her that he decided to take her because she had a strong rec from a prof he knows and trusts ("if he thinks you're that good, then he must know what he's talking about"). There are also different reasons to get less-than-stellar recs, not to do with the quality of your work. Some profs leave the letter writing to the last minute and then don't have enough time to get acquainted with a student's work and write a thoughtful letter; in Europe the writing is *a lot* more understated than in the US, so what is in Europe a glowing compliment could be construed as a so-so opinion of someone in America.

In the end though, the OP has to review his app again, maybe have more profs go over everything, and concentrate on improving the things that are under his control - like the SOP and the writing sample, getting more research experience and grad-level courses, etc.

[HisRoyalHighness]

I got slammed when I wrote this in response to another post asking the same question. But I asked all of my recommenders to provide me with a copy of the letter they wrote on my behalf and told them if they didn't feel comfortable doing so I'd find someone else. All of them agreed with no hesitation.

I spent too much time and effort applying to grad school for it to be screwed up by a vengeful former professor or adviser. I've heard of recommenders who will tell a student to their face how much they like them and respect them and how happy they would be to provide a recommendation letter for them and then turn around and write a letter savaging the student. As a matter of fact I know someone on an admissions committee who specifically mentioned a recommender who called a student "lazy" and said their work was of "poor quality." I don't know why someone would do that but it happens, a lot more than people think it does.

I have a right to know what people are saying about me. Businesses cannot give anonymous recommendations and risk being sued if they provide negative ones. I don't know why academia should be any different.

[fuzzylogician]

I got slammed when I wrote this in response to another post asking the same question. But I asked all of my recommenders to provide me with a copy of the letter they wrote on my behalf and told them if they didn't feel comfortable doing so I'd find someone else. All of them agreed with no hesitation...I have a right to know what people are saying about me. Businesses cannot give anonymous recommendations and risk being sued if they provide negative ones. I don't know why academia should be any different.

That's all well and good, and if your recommenders agree to show you their letters then there's nothing wrong with that. But it's unethical to open sealed envelopes and read the letters after waiving your right to do so. It cripples the application process for of all the reasons that were stated by people above me.

[HisRoyalHighness]

It's the cowardly way of doing what I did. If someone wants to see their recommendation letter they should either ask for a copy or refuse to waive their right to review the letters in their application file. Every school I applied to gave me that option and I thought about taking it - instead I just asked my recommenders.

I agree - you should not open sealed recommendation letters. Asking for an extra copy so you can do so is unethical and dishonest.

[washdc]

I spent too much time and effort applying to grad school for it to be screwed up by a vengeful former professor or adviser. I've heard of recommenders who will tell a student to their face how much they like them and respect them and how happy they would be to provide a recommendation letter for them and then turn around and write a letter savaging the student. As a matter of fact I know someone on an admissions committee who specifically mentioned a recommender who called a student "lazy" and said their work was of "poor quality." I don't know why someone would do that but it happens, a lot more than people think it does.

If a professor has that much time and energy to be vengeful couldn't they just say, sure I'll give you a copy (of a great LOR) and in fact send off a horrible one? The last thing professors at my school have time for, after preparing for various classes, reading papers and/or grading tests, having office hours, advising thesis work, publishing articles, going to conferences and presenting their work, giving lectures, reading up on new info in their field, sitting on the board for various committees etc. etc. is to do something as immature as say, wow you're so great I'd love to write your LOR so that I can secretly ruin your future chances of getting into grad school mwahaha.

Really though?

I think we should just waive our right, and be confident that our work is good enough for a bomb ass LOR. If it's not, then we deserve an average LOR. It's called life - you can have awful work and go around telling professors and employers if they don't provide a copy of their LOR you're not going to have them write it but you won't ever learn that maybe your quality of work SHOULD be better, and you should work harder. Like I said, if they reeeeeeeeally have the time to be that immature and vengeful, they're going to write a horrible LOR either way.

That's just me- I'm not into internet arguing so I'm not going to go back and forth on the subject, but that's my two cents.

[rufzilla]

I've also heard the horror stories of professors back-stabbing students and writing bad/ mediocre letters of recommendation. I was told (and followed through with the advice) that I should a) ask the professors if they can write me a positive LoR, and hint in my request what I wanted them to write about me. Doing this not only reassured me that my LoR writers were going to write (at least) good letters, but it also gave them an outline of what I wanted the adcomm to get out of their letter. For example, I tutored a group of students in a comp lit class and basically told the professor that I wanted him to talk about my teaching/ tutoring abilities since I wanted to be considered for a TA position. Then, if the professors agreed (on writing a positive rec and what I wanted them to talk about) I knew my letters were as good as gold. Actually, my LoRs were the only thing I was not worried about through my whole application process and I never even got to see them.

I can't stress enough, though, how important I think it is that you ask the professor if they can write you a positive LoR and not just say "hey, can you write me a letter of recommendation?" because this gives the professor free liberty to say what they will. Sure, if they can't most professors will say they can't write you a good letter, but let's be real -- there are some dicks out there that will write you a LoR, albeit a bad one. It's what you asked for right? It's not like you were being specific (not meant towards anyone, just generalizing). We are all entering the competitive field of academia and I'm sure some professors are dick-head enough to slyly kick their competition in the balls if they don't feel the student is worthy, etc. At least if you specifically ask about them writing a positive LoR and they don't it's their bad (and their dick head-ish-ness) and not your's.

For what it's worth.

[jferreir]

I can't stress enough, though, how important I think it is that you ask the professor if they can write you a positive LoR and not just say "hey, can you write me a letter of recommendation?" because this gives the professor free liberty to say what they will. Sure, if they can't most professors will say they can't write you a good letter, but let's be real -- there are some dicks out there that will write you a LoR, albeit a bad one. It's what you asked for right? It's not like you were being specific (not meant towards anyone, just generalizing). We are all entering the competitive field of academia and I'm sure some professors are dick-head enough to slyly kick their competition in the balls if they don't feel the student is worthy, etc. At least if you specifically ask about them writing a positive LoR and they don't it's their bad (and their dick head-ish-ness) and not your's.

For what it's worth.

That is some excellent advice. Personally, I did a few things to secure strong LORs...

First, I asked if my professors were willing to write strong LORs well in advance of their due date (absolutely crucial, as noted above). Second, if they agreed, I provided a short list of 'academic highlights' that they could speak toward in their letter. For instance, I listed awards/scholarships, advanced/graduate courses, extracurricular activities, service to the discipline/department, etc. Third, I offered to provide a recent writing sample (if requested) to help jog their memory (RE: writing ability). Fourth, I offered each of them a way out. I said if they do not feel comfortable writing a LOR, I would accept their decision without further explanation.

Most seemed quite impressed, which leads me to believe that if you approach this in a responsible and professional way, you will definitely leave a lasting (positive) impression!

[HisRoyalHighness]

Like I said - I know someone on an admissions committee who has seen it happen. Better safe than sorry.

And I agree totally with the advice that you ask your recommender if they can write a positive, strong recommendation. Still - it doesn't hurt to ask to see it. By waiving your right to do so all you're really doing is perpetuating the non-opaque process of admissions which is really the last bastion of the star chamber. Fight the power.