Offer holders, how do you make your final decision?

[TMP]

The rise of adjuncting feeds on desperate PhDs.  If more people stay away from adjuncthood, then hopefully the whole issue will go away and better hiring practices will be made.

[Laguna Niguel]

Well, I guess that at least means more tenure track positions for the rest of us.

 

Hopefully you are right! 

[CageFree]

Talented people who are willing to take adjunct positions make the market harder for everyone else by cheapening our labor. Just a thought.

[hdunlop]

phds of the world unite!

[jogatoronto]

The petit bourgeoisie likening themselves to the proletariat...only on grad cafe.  If I used twitter there would be a hashtag somewhere in my previous sentence.

[New England Nat]

I highly doubt people making under $20K (which many adjuncts do) a year without benefits are "petit bourgeoisie" by any sane definition.

[Katzenmusik]

The petit bourgeoisie likening themselves to the proletariat...only on grad cafe.  If I used twitter there would be a hashtag somewhere in my previous sentence.

 

You laugh, but PhDs are being proletarianized.  The academic system produces more scholars than the market can sustain, which means labor conditions are deteriorating.  Academics tend to have a high degree of cultural capital -- but you can't pay the rent with that.

 

There are infinite writings about this situation on the internet.  Google "adjunct exploitation" for starters.  Also check out what Marc Bousquet and William Pannapacker have said.

 

Then read about PhDs on food stamps:

http://chronicle.com/article/From-Graduate-School-to/131795/

 

(Before I submitted my PhD apps, I subjected myself to every argument against grad school I could find. It's still the thing I want to do, but I'm going in with open eyes.)

Edited February 20, 2013 by Katzenmusik

[CageFree]

The petit bourgeoisie likening themselves to the proletariat...only on grad cafe.  If I used twitter there would be a hashtag somewhere in my previous sentence.

 

You know nothing about my background (or anybody else's) to be making such an assumption.

Edited February 21, 2013 by CageFree

[nextplay43]

Anyone have any advice on this: Last week I was admitted with full funding to one of my top choices (in the top 3 I would say), and whereas professors from every other school have reached out via email offering to talk on the phone/skype, I haven't heard a thing from any professor at this particular school. I feel like these conversations have made a real difference for me so far in trying to come to a decision. I'm tempted to contact my POI and ask if he has any time to talk, but I don't want to be pushy. I should also note that because of work, I likely can't attend this school's visiting day/weekend. Any thoughts on what to do here? I'm afraid my neuroticism has taken over my ability to use common sense. 

[New England Nat]

You aren't being pushy.  Contact the PoI and anyone else there you might work with.  Tell them you ahve other offers and let them try and sell you on the school.  Don't make assumptions, professors are busy people and sometimes "oh i meant to email him/her" can just fall off their radar.

[TMP]

Sure.  Be honest.  But sometimes such an effort doesn't have much of an effect especially when it's a TOP 3 school with a strong funding package.  Professors at those places sometimes underestimate the importance of contact and overestimate the name brand and strength of the funding package.  Then again, they may be the types to prefer to talk in person.

[New England Nat]

And sometimes places that you don't think need to sell themselves put a high price on it.  I know my program does but I had a conversation with one professor about someone in the accepted cohort and she practically looked mortified because she hadn't gotten around to emailing that person.

[reed155]

Anyone have any advice on this: Last week I was admitted with full funding to one of my top choices (in the top 3 I would say), and whereas professors from every other school have reached out via email offering to talk on the phone/skype, I haven't heard a thing from any professor at this particular school. I feel like these conversations have made a real difference for me so far in trying to come to a decision. I'm tempted to contact my POI and ask if he has any time to talk, but I don't want to be pushy. I should also note that because of work, I likely can't attend this school's visiting day/weekend. Any thoughts on what to do here? I'm afraid my neuroticism has taken over my ability to use common sense. 

This sounds exactly like my situation. I was accepted by two schools: one if them is Ivy League and another one is a VERY good school but not Ivy. Professors from that good not Ivy school are extremely helpful. They answer all my questions, initiate skype conversations, e-mail their recent articles. As for the Ivy school, its unfriendliness worries me. I have a friend who chose to go to a #1 school in her field and she is very unhappy there. She admits that she had noticed arrogance from the very beginning of all the communication with the department. However, she didn't pay much attention to that because she was too taken aback by the status of the school. Now she says she can't thrive in a place where she feels miserable...

I understand that the best way to see what the department is like is to go and visit the campus. However, I might not be able to do that: it's hard to afford traveling from a different continent.

[New England Nat]

This is why i highly suggest you talk to grad students in the program and not just professors.

[czesc]

This sounds exactly like my situation. I was accepted by two schools: one if them is Ivy League and another one is a VERY good school but not Ivy. Professors from that good not Ivy school are extremely helpful. They answer all my questions, initiate skype conversations, e-mail their recent articles. As for the Ivy school, its unfriendliness worries me. I have a friend who chose to go to a #1 school in her field and she is very unhappy there. She admits that she had noticed arrogance from the very beginning of all the communication with the department. However, she didn't pay much attention to that because she was too taken aback by the status of the school. Now she says she can't thrive in a place where she feels miserable....

 

Make sure you don't give too much weight to a school's "Ivy" status. In nearly every graduate field, including history, there are Ivy League schools that rank well below state schools in reputation, and it might not be to your detriment to choose said "very good school," particularly if the professors seem more responsive.

 

But also don't attribute any lack of response or outreach to "unfriendliness". One of my good friends is an SJD (law PhD) at an Ivy League school; her advisors, at both the law school and history department, are very famous, international jet-setting academics who sometimes disappear to other continents for weeks. But when they are able to meet with her, the opportunities they're able to give her by picking up a phone wouldn't be equaled by a school where the profs were constantly available. Just food for thought. 

[reed155]

New England Nat, as a current grad student, do you think it is ok to e-mail the students at the program even though neither DGS nor POI put me i touch with them?

 

Czesc: Agreed. The brighter the professor is the more she/he is busy. And, yes, Ivy status of the school does not guarantee the excellence of each of the program.

[New England Nat]

Yes, most departments should have lists of grad students on their website.  Pick someone in your field and contact them.  My department gives the current grad students a list of email addresses and encourages us to write people. 

[LeatherElbows]

Regarding the Ivy vs. non-Ivy issue, I'd say that ultimately the advisor should be the deciding factor. Obviously funding, resources, and program reputation (in terms of getting a job) are important, but you'll be working very closely with your advisor for around 6 years. If it's not a solid match, there's a good chance you'll be unhappy. I'm a big advocate of feeling welcome upon starting a PhD program.

 

I heartily agreed with Nat about contacting a grad student. They are usually refreshingly honest. Just be aware the information you get from a student early in their PhD and someone just about to finish are likely to be very different. And in any department, some students are happier than others, so try to take their advice objectively.

[reed155]

LeatherElbows, thanks for the input. As for adviser, I think my research interests match very well with potential advisers from both of the places. However, while both of them have extra administrative responsibilities, the one from a non-Ivy actually manages to find the time to communicate with me. The one from an Ivy school doesn't.

[rising_star]

New England Nat, as a current grad student, do you think it is ok to e-mail the students at the program even though neither DGS nor POI put me i touch with them?

 

Absolutely. BUT, do not send the same form email to a bunch of different grad students all at once. This happens all the time and, since we talk to each other, we all know. I typically don't answer these emails unless it's clear that the person is emailing me for a specific reason (very similar research, wants to work with my advisor, etc.) and with specific questions. So yes, seek us out on your departmental websites but read the information we have there before contacting us.

 

I heartily agreed with Nat about contacting a grad student. They are usually refreshingly honest. Just be aware the information you get from a student early in their PhD and someone just about to finish are likely to be very different. And in any department, some students are happier than others, so try to take their advice objectively.

This is very, very true. I am nearly done with my PhD, so my perspective on the department will be very different than that of a first year student. I know far more about the funding, working outside the department, etc. than most first years. So keep that in mind and make contact with students that are nearly done and that have recently begun so you can get a more comprehensive perspective on the department. It's also true that there are people that will try to smooth things over and act like everything is hunky-dory even when it's not. Again, this is why it behooves you to talk to multiple people and some that are on their way out, as those almost done have less to lose if something negative they said gets back to the department.

[History Time]

What is the best way of saying "I'm not sure I want to accept your offer because I think better ones may be coming." I want to express my gratitude and excitement of being accepted, but there is no way I can commit to something this early.

[New England Nat]

You say "I still have application's pending and feel like I need to see how they play out before I accept or decline."  Everyone knows you applied to more than one school and even top schools know that you applied to other top schools.  They're not supposed to force you to accept before April 1st so that all the schools have a chance to get through the application season.

[Sio68]

I have a choice of three very good schools, each of which have a different pattern of positives and negatives. One, for example has hands down the best advisor (name recognition, quality of work, teaching and networking opportunities), the other is a more prestigious school (Ivy) in a fantastic location with faculty who are very enthusiastic over my research, and the other has lots of great faculty working in my area with fantastic connections. I've begun to realise that I'd do fine in any of them and at some point I have to compromise on the negatives!

 

However, there's one thing that I'm unsure about- employment. Obviously the job market pretty much sucks but I'm still keen to keep an eye on the future and I do wonder about the relative merits of each in this department. I'm a firm believer that so much of your future rests on how much you put in (for example.. just because you go to an Ivy, doesn't mean you're going to get amazing employment.) However, I've been trying to look at where these schools have managed to place their previous students. One has its list on the website, but I can't find it from the other two.

 

Do you think it's ok to ask where students end up? And if so, do you even think this is a useful indication of anything? Or do you believe that if you thrive, network and produce good work then the top 10-20 schools in your area just end up a level playing field?

[SLF0001]

A round-about option would be to look at the AHA's dissertation directory: http://www.historians.org/pubs/dissertations/index.cfm

You can google the names of those who've completed dissertations in recent years and see where they wound up. 

[fossilchick]

Do you think it's ok to ask where students end up? And if so, do you even think this is a useful indication of anything? Or do you believe that if you thrive, network and produce good work then the top 10-20 schools in your area just end up a level playing field?

 

I definitely think it's OK to ask. However, you should be prepared to get a variety of different answers based on who you talk to.  The DGS may or may not have a long memory when it comes to placement.  The department may highlight a few of their graduates in particularly good positions.  Certain advisers may have stellar placement rates and others have no one in TT jobs, leading to a middling average on placement for the department as a whole (but obviously, the department average doesn't reflect student experience).  Some former students may be working outside academia because that is their career plan and others may be working outside academia because they can't secure an academic position; metrics wouldn't show the nuance in that distinction. 

 

If you can't get a handle on overall placement, you can get around it by asking pointed questions that should give you some indication.  Ask the DGS or POI how many students have finished in the last 5 years, and what they are doing.  Does the department offer professional development opportunities?  Do students go on the market when they are ABD?  How do students support themselves while they are on the job market?  Does the department ever hire instructors or lecturers from the ranks of its graduate students?

 

If you're not already in touch with some graduate students, ask to be put in touch.  If possible, talk to students at different stages of the program.  A student who is ABD or near defending should have some intel on very current placement of finished students.  Then you just have to triangulate the answers you get.  In general, Sio68, I agree with you that an individual with good networks, a strong dissertation, articles, teaching evals, etc. can find success even if their department doesn't have a 100% placement rate.  That said, it doesn't mean you shouldn't investigate, or be blind to any red flags.

Edited February 24, 2013 by fossilchick