Offer holders, how do you make your final decision?

[annieca]

Graduate school admission is so different from postgrad! When I got my letter from IU-B, it was basically "So, here's the dates you need to know for the orientations and all that jazz" not "Please let us know if you're actually coming."

 

Is this common?

[HistoryPhD]

So I have something of a dilemma (in a good way I guess) regarding my applications.  I am completing a 2-yr MA course here in NC this spring and would like to go to the UK to finish my PhD.  I believe the research intensive training and teaching experience from my MA will offset the lack thereof in a UK PhD course (at least that is my opinion at present).

 

I have received offers from Cambridge (MPhil to PhD), Oxford (M.St. to PhD), Edinburgh (PhD), Leeds (PhD) and Exeter (PhD) in the UK and just so that I wouldn't be stuck in the lurch if something happened, I applied to the University of Miami as well.

 

Cambridge and Oxford are very likely to give me zero money.  Basically because of the competition and I am realistic enough to know I was not one of their top candidates upon admission.

 

I may get some funding from Edinburgh and Leeds, depending on how that plays out in April.  Exeter doesn't seem to have as many funding options for international students as these others so I may be out of luck there as well.

 

Miami has offered me tuition + $20k/yr in stipend for five years.  I have also been nominated for a University Fellowship, which if received will bump my stipend to $25k/yr and excuse me from teaching for 2 yrs in the 5 yr program.  Basically a very nice package, even considering the cost of living in Miami.

 

So, at what point would it be stupid to pass this up?  Miami isn't exactly known internationally for its history program (although it is a top 50 school) and would not carry the gravitas that a PhD from Oxbridge or Edinburgh may but the cost at Oxbridge unaided will amount to about $150k US for the three years, roughly a swing of $400k between the two.  Edinburgh wouldn't cost as much overall but would still equate to a substantial difference.

 

Provided that I get no funding from any of the UK schools it seems like a no-brainer that I simply go with Miami, correct?  It is unlikely that I will ever compensate for the disparity in the cost of education with a job in academia.  Even if I gained tenure quickly and worked for 30+ years the difference that a "prestigious" PhD would make compared to simply a "good" one wouldn't equal out.

 

But, if I did get some level of funding from Edinburgh or Leeds, who seem to have the most options available, what would be the expected threshold to accept and potentially go into debt for a portion of the course in your opinion?  I am mainly just looking for a different perspective because I am having some difficulty weighing the pros and cons presently.

 

Thanks!

Edited February 13, 2013 by HistoryPhD

[Katzenmusik]

HistoryPhD: 

 

This is my opinion.

 

$150k - $400K in loans is way too much, and if I were you I would try to avoid taking on any significant tuition debt from a PhD program, but it also seems like you aren't all that excited about Miami.

 

Having been accepted to Oxbridge, do you think you would you be a contender for top-flight programs in the US?  (Just not sure how to weigh unfunded offers for international students in the UK.)

 

Perhaps you could try again next year with top US programs and figure you'll aim to do a Fulbright, spend summers in the UK, or figure out some other study-abroad program for a good chunk of it.

 

Edited to ask: Would Miami possibly let you defer your admission?

Edited February 13, 2013 by Katzenmusik

[czesc]

Under no circumstances ever accrue $400k in debt. I wouldn't advise this for someone going into a lucrative field like law or finance, let alone history.

 

Is your goal to work in the US? If so, Miami might be a more known quantity for hiring committees than UK schools. I don't think Leeds would really beat it reputation-wise. Maybe Edinburgh, but it may also depend on your field.

Edited February 13, 2013 by czesc

[HistoryPhD]

Thanks for the replies..  And yeah, going over $100k in debt isn't even a real option.  I would never consider it.

 

That said, I do not think I would be very competitive in the top US programs because of space.  UK programs, even the top ones, can give many more offers than similar US schools because they don't generally have limits on incoming class size.  If an advisor is willing to take you on then you can realistically have a shot at admission since they don't obligate themselves to pay like most US programs do.  My MA qualifications are outstanding (3.9/4, 164V GRE, 3 publications) but I barely got into the MA program at all because of my undergrad GPA - 2.2/4 (I had a 12yr gap in my ugrad career - immaturity got me kicked out with a 1.7 after my Junior year and I finished strong with a 4/4 in my last year in order to squeak out graduating) and I have been told by several people at the top programs that the politics involved with letting a low uGPA in would likely be a deterrent.   I guess it would be hard to keep a top 10 ranking in US News if you let in 5 people and one of them screws up your overall GPA average...lol.

 

Regardless, my main thought is that I might get some funding from Edinburgh or Leeds, the latter allowing me to apply for a UK/EU national only program under an exception because my research intends to use AQM.  Edinburgh has a number of TA-ships that it distributes.

 

Considering the respective costs of living, if I was able to get fees paid for at either school that would leave me with maintenance concerns, which would equate to roughly $20k per year.  Still a large sum, but not insurmountable.

 

I am honestly excited about Miami's offer, but as a Medievalist, it just doesn't compare realistically to being across the pond.

[stillalivetui]

Graduate school admission is so different from postgrad! When I got my letter from IU-B, it was basically "So, here's the dates you need to know for the orientations and all that jazz" not "Please let us know if you're actually coming."

 

Is this common?

 

Probably different between departments because my IU-B acceptance was nothing like that.

[simone von c]

History PhD

 

In my view, one should not accept an unfunded offer, anywhere. Either take the Miami offer, or beef up your CV and reapply to other US programs next year.

[New England Nat]

There is no reason to take an unfunded offer for a history PhD.  An unfunded offer is essentially a rejection and the UK schools bank on north american students to pay their bills. 

[Katzenmusik]

HistoryGrad -- yes, it seems to me that you should either go with Miami or do another round of applications.  Not only would you probably have to pay a lot for the UK schools, but if you intend to work in the US later, you might find that they are not as well positioned to connect you with jobs.

 

I have an acquaintance who did her PhD in the UK and found that when she returned to the US, she had to rebuild an entire professional network from scratch.  Her program didn't have any reputation here (not good or bad, just none), and her advisors weren't able to help at all with the job search because no one in the US knew them.  She's been hopping around different short-term positions for the past while.  

 

Of course, none of us are guaranteed jobs no matter where we go, but it seems to me that leaving the US is an extra gamble.

 

If you end up with a tuition waiver and TAship at Edinburgh, it would definitely be worth considering, but once in the program, you would need to make a greater effort to connect to the US through conferences, publications, and so on.  Also, it would be good to figure out how your advisor's past students have fared on the job market and if any of them have gone on to work in the US.

 

Good luck!

[sandyvanb]

HistoryPhD I'm at UM, pm me if you have any questions.

[Sio68]

There is no reason to take an unfunded offer for a history PhD.  An unfunded offer is essentially a rejection and the UK schools bank on north american students to pay their bills. 

 

An unfunded offer in the UK is not a rejection.

 

The brutal truth is that because of the way in which our system works, there just isn't the kind of money that there is in US institutions. It usually has no reflection at all on your quality. Many PhD students in the UK will be told that their department has zero money for any PhD student (mine included), but will push them towards obtaining funding from the AHRC. There might only be one available per year per department so competition can be fierce, and I'm not even sure US students qualify. US students may have better luck in a handful of wealthier institutions like Oxford and Cambridge. Edinburgh may also have funds available, but I wouldn't count on it.

 

Also, there are plenty of transatlantic connections and networking opportunities in certain sub-fields. With mine, I'm lucky that people know each other well on both sides of the pond and I doubt moving from one to the other would be a problem for me. I can't however speak to your field. If you're a medievalist, my guess would be that you will not have problems. American Medievalists surely do so much of their research in the UK and Europe that they will have deep connections there?

 

None of this means that I think you should take an unfunded offer - I don't. I very much dislike the way that grad students can be left with practically nothing in the UK. But I do want to stress that it is NOT a rejection (whereas in the US, it is). There's also some truth to the fact that international students are valued for their financial contribution to the UK institutions.

 

My advice would be to see what you're offered, but not to put yourself into major debt. I can't comment on Miami- I know nothing about them!

[New England Nat]

In the last few years the "cash cow" quality to North American candidates (and it counts for Canadians too) has started to devalue UK doctorates on the job market.  So perhaps it's not exactly a rejection in the same way but it carries it's own set of problems for someone who wants to come back to the US to teach.

[HistoryPhD]

In the last few years the "cash cow" quality to North American candidates (and it counts for Canadians too) has started to devalue UK doctorates on the job market.  So perhaps it's not exactly a rejection in the same way but it carries it's own set of problems for someone who wants to come back to the US to teach.

I understand your point and appreciate the input.  I do find it somewhat distressing that the costs in relation to gain are so skewed in the UK.  Thus, the reason for my post here.  Of course, if I were one of the lucky few to gain funding then it only makes sense to take up a position at a higher ranked institution where I would have more immediate access to the source material.

 

I also want to apologize if I came across as smug in regards to Miami.  It is a great institution and overall seems like a wonderful place.  In no way do I think it would be a bad choice.  I don't believe my job prospects with a PhD from Miami would be any more or less scary than anyone else's.  I just had my heart set on living in the UK and am torn.

[TMP]

HistoryPhD, what KIND of job do you want with your PhD?  If you just want to teach, period, then Miami isn't a bad place to go.  But if you are aiming high like research universities, you do need to aim high.  There is no shame to turning down offers and re-apply.  Seriously.  The admissions are like winning a lottery and absolutely crapshoot.  For me, it's like playing the Russian roulette. just gotta keep spinning until you win.

[HistoryPhD]

HistoryPhD, what KIND of job do you want with your PhD?  If you just want to teach, period, then Miami isn't a bad place to go.  But if you are aiming high like research universities, you do need to aim high.  There is no shame to turning down offers and re-apply.  Seriously.  The admissions are like winning a lottery and absolutely crapshoot.  For me, it's like playing the Russian roulette. just gotta keep spinning until you win.

Well, I'm one of those crazy people pursuing a PhD in History because I enjoy it, not because I dream of a tenure-track position where I can sit at the same desk for 30 years.  I already had one career like that and have thankfully moved beyond such frivolity.

 

That is one of the primary reasons I even considered taking up a PhD in the UK.  I do not necessarily even care to work at a US school.  It isn't as if I am not aware of many of the points raised concerning the difference in standing overall but I am completing a 2yr MA now in which I have already received a great deal of the "professional" training and I primarily just want something different.

 

This is another reason why I chose Miami.  Aside from the fact that my advisor there comes highly recommended I think I will enjoy the climate.  An absolutely horrendous reason to consider a school, I know.  But it is what it is.

 

I am not inclined to wait another year, attend a few more conferences, add a couple more lines to my CV and seek out placement at a higher ranked US school.  Quite frankly, if that is what I wanted then I would have applied to them to begin with.  I did my undergrad at Chapel Hill so I do have connections in the field.

 

I will be very happy at Miami if that is what I decide to do, I just wondered what peoples thoughts were on going into debt for schools like Edinburgh, which for Medieval Studies are top notch, even if outside the US system.  Thanks.

[TMP]

That said, HistoryPhD, just go to Miami.  It really is not worth going into debt for the PhD.  I have a colleague who did and she's still conflicted about it (she was an older student at the time so wasn't quite intending on going into academia).  She had a wonderful, wonderful experience though.  But think about it, what would you do with that $70K+ that you would spend on paying off the loans?

 

I still ponder on what I would've done with the money I've been using to pay off my loans from my MA...  Vacations... shopping... 

[czesc]

HistoryPHD - just out of curiosity, what exactly DO you intend to do with your life after your doctorate? Is this just a retirement gift to yourself? If you do plan to get another career, I'd think carefully about whether you actually want a grad degree in history; it can actually be a hindrance to getting some positions outside academia.

[HistoryPhD]

HistoryPHD - just out of curiosity, what exactly DO you intend to do with your life after your doctorate? Is this just a retirement gift to yourself? If you do plan to get another career, I'd think carefully about whether you actually want a grad degree in history; it can actually be a hindrance to getting some positions outside academia.

I wouldn't mind being an adjunct or lecturer.  Not really interested in a tenure-track position.

[stillalivetui]

I wouldn't mind being an adjunct or lecturer.  Not really interested in a tenure-track position.

 

For real? 

[TMP]

Adjuncts and Lecturers make less than graduate  students.  Unlike everyone else, including graduate students, they do not get benefits.  Have you heard of the "Adjunct Project"?  Google it.

 

I seriously had a semester as a "Lecturer" in one of my funding packages.  I thought it'd be a nice way to have my own class.  Then the DGS said to me, "You have to pay your own dissertation credits.  You don't get tuition waiver or health benefits as a Lecturer."  My heart sank.

[Katzenmusik]

HistoryPhD, have you hung out around the Chronicle of Higher Ed fora at all?  Adjuncts post over there, and they all seem completely miserable.  They're fighting tooth and nail to escape long-term adjunct-hood.  http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/board,52.0.html

 

You know yourself and your goals and desires best, and I'm sure this comes across as unwanted advice.  But adjuncts tend to be underpaid and exploited, with no job security and no benefits.  It might be okay for a couple of years, but then what happens if you get sick or your car breaks down, and in the meantime you're trying to pay off debt from a PhD program?  It doesn't bode well at all.

[stillalivetui]

I'm really curious to hear his logic behind this. To me, this is like a baseball player not wanting a long-term contract and all the perks that come with it, namely, job security.

[HistoryPhD]

As I've stated, I've already had a career. I enjoy history and my reasons are my own. I am not ignorant of the realities. Thanks for the input but I believe my part in this discussion has run its course.

[simone von c]

I'm right there with you, History PhD. Had a career, raised a family, now in the 2nd year of an awesome, generously funded doctoral program in history. For various reasons, I am not targeting a tenure track position either. Yes, young grasshoppers. There are all kinds of people in the world.

[czesc]

Well, I guess that at least means more tenure track positions for the rest of us.