How snobbish are the Ivys???

[planesandtrains]

I think the class differences are much more pronounced in ENGLAND where Oxford is located. I mean they still have a ROYAL FAMILY for christ's sake. American has no aristocracy. If we did, it would include Kanye and Kim Kardashian and it would be a total joke. I personally believe that a lot of "class" in this country is about education, so if you prevent yourself from getting an Ivy-league education because you're afraid of feeling left out by class difference, then you're really screwing yourself over and reinforcing class difference. Self-segregation is a terrible, terrible thing.

 

I am not from the "upper class" by any stretch, my great-grandparents were running from pogroms when they came to this country and my grandparents lived in poverty on the lower-east side. My parents became professionals through good old-fashioned education and I am currently in that middle-class gap which doesn't benefit from financial aid. So I'm on a loan right now. I went to an Ivy-league undergrad and an Ivy-equivalent Master's program. I'm not a snob. I am a bit of a picky mofo, and I don't put up with weak-mindedness. But that has nothing to do with my educational "pedigree," that's just who I am. I'm an intellectual bitch. And I appreciate other people being hard on me because I think it makes me smarter.

 

 

DAE find the brazen lack of awareness of class privilege displayed in this post hilarious? Yeah, it totally doesn't matter that the US has some of the most extreme income inequality and one of the lowest rates of social mobility in the developed world (a fact which is displayed starkly at our elite institutions, where 74% of students come from families in the richest quarter of the population and 3% from the bottom quarter) - because bootstraps! BTW, if you don't qualify for financial aid at a private institution, you're decidedly well up in that privileged quarter.

 

I'm not suggesting this is a problem unique to Ivies, and being rich does not equal being a snob. You know what does correlate with being a snob, though? Refusal to acknowledge one's own class privilege.

[ProspectStu8735]

Did undergrad at an Ivy as a Pell grant recipient.

 

Just to echo what others have already said, there are some terrible, rich brats, but the majority of my classmates were too intelligent to debase themselves to elitism among peers.  The jerks were rare and usually had more wrong with them than a lot of privilege and money could account for alone.  More inter-peer tension probably arose from the fact that everyone was intelligent, passionate and driven.  The result was that people were incredibly skilled rhetoricians, so debates got heated and no one ever backed down from an intellectual challenge in seminar.

 

Sometimes people project more onto so-called elite schools than is deserved.  Sure, the schools themselves are very rich and many rich kids go to them (about half of any given undergrad class is "rich" in the sense that they don't need financial aid), which can be alienating for a middle or lower class student who has just arrived to campus.  But, ultimately, the schools are in America and in America its not polite to openly talk about class (everyone's too aspirational; the "American Dream" means an individual in poverty probably sees the condition as a merely temporary condition, so will likely take offense at anyone pointing out particular class characteristics, be they of high or low).  Even though you can count on the fact that your friends will be spending long breaks and even the occasional weekend in South Hampton or Palm Beach, you won't have it rubbed in your face.  If you ever do, its because you've been invited along, which isn't a bad thing.  Also, any class based discomfort pays exponential dividends years down the road.  Since graduation its been a real convenience to be friends with the kids of those who rule the world, especially when searching for a job in this market.  Or in the case of academia, there's a certain sense of ease in knowing that a few members of any given selection committee will look at my application with a special twinkle in their eye because they either graduated from the same school or see that their most respected colleague wrote one of my rec letters.  The long term perks far outweigh any initial culture shock.  At the end of it you will be one of the elite you so fear, but find that nothing at all has changed in your person except for your ability to plow through a passage of Derrida.  You shouldn't let stereotypes hinder your first-hand experience of ANY opportunity as significant as attending one of America's top educational institutions, for while the glamour may be overblown, the intellectual rigor is not.

Edited February 12, 2013 by ProspectStu8735

[DontHate]

^ I'm not saying that the American Dream is a real or feasible thing for most people. I'm aware that I'm privileged in a million different ways. But I think primary among my privileges is not an Upper-Class lifestyle (which I don't have). The kind of privilege that most people associate with the Ivy-league is gleaned from movies about the Skull & Bones society, and while that thing does exist, it's not at all central to graduate academic life.

 

I think being educated is a huge privilege. People in the very bottom of the poverty scale have much more serious problems than choosing a grad school, sadly. I don't think they're the ones who are asking questions about the Ivy-league on this forum. More likely, it's people from the midwest, or people from lower-tier undergrad programs: middle class people who just haven't been around Ivies enough to know what they're all about.

 

The fact is, if you can work hard enough to get into an amazing school, then you are smart enough to be anybody's peer, no matter what your background may be. That's what I'm trying to say. I don't look down on poor people. I look down on weak minds. I respect intelligence, no matter where it may have originated from. 

[Two Espressos]

I just find it a bit frustrating that everyone wants to accuse Ivy league schools and the people who attend them of being snobs/elitists/privileged.

 

Welcome to The Grad Cafe.

 

Anyways, I hail from a university that is essentially a glorified community college, but I don't think I'd have much trouble adjusting to a more elite institution.  *shrugs*

[bigrelief]

I really wouldn't worry about Ivy snobbishness at the grad level.  I'm currently a first year in Princeton's PhD program, and while I can't speak for the undergrads, the grad students are mostly smart, cool, and grounded.  I don't think anybody in my cohort attended an Ivy for undergrad, and some attended schools that would definitely be considered lower-ranked.  It's obvious that the admissions committee actually read every application.  This seems to be true of other departments as well.

 

Go where you can do your work most effectively.  Ivy's have some pretty damn good faculty--don't avoid them because you're afraid they'll magically turn you into a snob.

[practical cat]

Welcome to The Grad Cafe.

 

Anyways, I hail from a university that is essentially a glorified community college, but I don't think I'd have much trouble adjusting to a more elite institution.  *shrugs*

Edited February 12, 2013 by girl who wears glasses

[ErnestPWorrell]

to, like, all of this: 

 

[DontHate]

Ok, this is going a little far now. "I ended up in a situation that was actually life-threatening because of the biases of my institution" -- so now we're painting a picture of gangs of Upper-class thugs patrolling elite campuses threatening lives? I'm not trying to dismiss whatever experience this is alluding to, but it certainly isn't indicative of the vast majority of campus dynamics at the top programs. This sounds like a strange scenario that should have been dealt with by the police, not used as fodder for indiscriminate classist resentment.

 

Edit: Girl with glasses's post that had the quote I was referring to above was deleted. So, for future reference, I'm responding to her post #31.

Edited February 12, 2013 by DontHate

[bluecheese]

DAE find the brazen lack of awareness of class privilege displayed in this post hilarious? Yeah, it totally doesn't matter that the US has some of the most extreme income inequality and one of the lowest rates of social mobility in the developed world (a fact which is displayed starkly at our elite institutions, where 74% of students come from families in the richest quarter of the population and 3% from the bottom quarter) - because bootstraps! BTW, if you don't qualify for financial aid at a private institution, you're decidedly well up in that privileged quarter.

 

I'm not suggesting this is a problem unique to Ivies, and being rich does not equal being a snob. You know what does correlate with being a snob, though? Refusal to acknowledge one's own class privilege.

 

This.

 

Also, get culture shocked and then get angry at rich people -- don't affix yourself to them like a tick.

Edited February 12, 2013 by bluecheese

[DontHate]

Speaking of "brazen lack of awareness of class privilege," y'all seem to have some pretty sweet internet access and free time enough to read and participate on forums irrelevant to your jobs (whatever they may be. I assume you work in salt mines, or other arduous manual labors without much associated prestige).

 

BE AWARE OF THE PRIVILEGE YOU ARE DISPLAYING. 

[practical cat]

I deleted my post because I anticipated an outrageous response from donthate. Sorry I wasn't fast enough.

[rems]

This is always true, school is difficult and there are going to be problems. I'm sorry if I sound dismissive. I just find it a bit frustrating that everyone wants to accuse Ivy league schools and the people who attend them of being snobs/elitists/privileged. Some people are, sure. A lot of people just attend Ivies for the excellent education they provide. Believing that Ivies are bastions of snobbery makes them into that.

 

Graduate programs are very different from undergrad, also. They are much more diverse (in terms of nationality, as well as undergrad background). They are much more focused and serious. If you find a great program and it happens to be Ivy-league I think it's ignorant to believe everyone in it will be "snobby."

 

I agree that it's just as ignorant to assume ivy leagues are "snobby" as much as it's ignorant to believe those from the South are "stupid." And I definitely see what you're saying. Let me rephrase what I meant originally: I don't think that just because you come from an ivy league school or from a middle or upper class family, you are snobby. What I meant was, each social class has its own culture, so if you're from the lower classes, and suddenly you're thrown in with people from the upper-middle and upper classes, it can be isolating even when those people are super nice to you. I would even equate it with being an international student -- that's how different those societies are. So, I'm not trying to suggest that one should avoid these schools for these reasons, but that this is simply something that one might encounter when in graduate school and it's most certainly worth a discussion -- the discussion prob won't lead to any sort of conclusion, but it's worth discussing.  

 

And I think expressing a fear of not fitting in in the ivies is definitely legitimate and I don't think it has anything to do with that student's ability to handle academic rigor -- it can be isolating outside the classroom when socially interacting with students, profs, the campus, etc. etc. I feel that most on this thread so far as jumped onto the assumption that we're attacking ivies, when I feel as though the OP was merely asking what we thought about them, if his/her concerns were legitimate, and how others have handled similar situations. 

 

[ErnestPWorrell]

Speaking of "brazen lack of awareness of class privilege," y'all seem to have some pretty sweet internet access and free time enough to read and participate on forums irrelevant to your jobs (whatever they may be. I assume you work in salt mines, or other arduous manual labors without much associated prestige).

 

BE AWARE OF THE PRIVILEGE YOU ARE DISPLAYING. 

 

I'm reading this from inside a coal mine. 

[DontHate]

This.

 

Also, get culture shocked and then get angry at rich people -- don't affix yourself to them like a tick.

 

Being angry at rich people is kind of silly and not particularly analytical. "Rich people" as a unit are an incredibly diverse group. One might be better-served by getting angry about certain poorly-designed or inherently corrupt systems. But generic rage directed upwards on the socio-economic scale is just as pointless and unproductive as hating all black people or hating all immigrants. 

 

What I'm saying is, think harder. Don't just hate what you [are trying to pretend you] don't understand. If we are all successful in finding tenure-track positions in academia, we will BE "rich people" someday. So think about that for a moment.

Edited February 12, 2013 by DontHate

[rems]

I'm fairly positive that no one on this thread so far has even said that ivies are full of snobs and that rich people are awful. I'm pretty sure that only people so far who have even mentioned anything to the contrary is me just pointing out that class differences in the ivies might be an issue for some students, and plainsandtrains stating that class differences do exist in our culture. I'm a little confused why everyone is being so defensive..?  

[practical cat]

I'm fairly positive that no one on this thread so far has even said that ivies are full of snobs and that rich people are awful. I'm pretty sure that only people so far who have even mentioned anything to the contrary is me just pointing out that class differences in the ivies might be an issue for some students, and plainsandtrains stating that class differences do exist in our culture. I'm a little confused why everyone is being so defensive..?  

Your thoughtful, careful responses have been particularly appreciated, rems. (I ran out of up votes in the acceptance freak out thread... Again.)

[DontHate]

Rems, I was replying to the specific post I quoted in my response. Not to what you said, which I agree with and think is perfectly reasonable.

[Troppman]

Or, we could take seriously the mathematical purport of the dilemma at hand wherein the only laudable answer is to be found midway between a few and twice a couple... 

[bluecheese]

Being angry at rich people is kind of silly and not particularly analytical. "Rich people" as a unit are an incredibly diverse group. One might be better-served by getting angry about certain poorly-designed or inherently corrupt systems. But generic rage directed upwards on the socio-economic scale is just as pointless and unproductive as hating all black people or hating all immigrants. 

 

What I'm saying is, think harder. Don't just hate what you [are trying to pretend you] don't understand. If we are all successful in finding tenure-track positions in academia, we will BE "rich people" someday. So think about that for a moment.

 

Who says hatred can't be analytical? Feminist killjoys, unhappy queers, angry black women, cantankerous wage laborers, and melancholic migrants are my favorite kinds of people. Maybe you should "think harder."

Edited February 12, 2013 by bluecheese

[planesandtrains]

Speaking of "brazen lack of awareness of class privilege," y'all seem to have some pretty sweet internet access and free time enough to read and participate on forums irrelevant to your jobs (whatever they may be. I assume you work in salt mines, or other arduous manual labors without much associated prestige).

 

BE AWARE OF THE PRIVILEGE YOU ARE DISPLAYING. 

 

 

So basically, all this says is, "I have no idea what privilege is." It's not a bad thing to have, since you can't control it, but it is a bad thing to deny as a force active in your own life and in the lives of others.

 

The original post on this thread was naive, sure, but that doesn't excuse the arrogance of your reply to it, which implies that class (and privilege blindness!) is not an incredibly salient aspect of life at any elite institution, that there is no incredibly oppressive class system in America because we don't have a royal family (!), that because your grandparents were not wealthy, that somehow transfers to you as an upper-middle-class kid and also demonstrates that anyone who wants to can ascend the socioeconomic ladder, and that non-rich people who have anxieties about dealing with the sort of disproportionate privilege that exists on elite campuses should just shut up about it because it doesn't matter and it's not a big deal.

 

It's like those men who tell women that sexism isn't such a big deal because they don't experience or notice it and that women should just quit whining about it. Just because I am also a man and have male privilege doesn't mean I can't call that bullshit. That sort of arrogant privilege-blindness is exactly what the OP was asking about, and it was what bugged me most about my own elite undergrad institution (where I certainly needed a lot of financial aid to get through!).

[Troppman]

So basically, all this says is, "I have no idea what privilege is." It's not a bad thing to have, since you can't control it, but it is a bad thing to deny as a force active in your own life and in the lives of others.

 

The original post on this thread was naive, sure, but that doesn't excuse the arrogance of your reply to it, which implies that class (and privilege blindness!) is not an incredibly salient aspect of life at any elite institution, that there is no incredibly oppressive class system in America because we don't have a royal family (!), that because your grandparents were not wealthy, that somehow transfers to you as an upper-middle-class kid and also demonstrates that anyone who wants to can ascend the socioeconomic ladder, and that non-rich people who have anxieties about dealing with the sort of disproportionate privilege that exists on elite campuses should just shut up about it because it doesn't matter and it's not a big deal.

 

It's like those men who tell women that sexism isn't such a big deal because they don't experience or notice it and that women should just quit whining about it. Just because I am also a man and have male privilege doesn't mean I can't call that bullshit. That sort of arrogant privilege-blindness is exactly what the OP was asking about, and it was what bugged me most about my own elite undergrad institution (where I certainly needed a lot of financial aid to get through!).

 

Are there "men" who exist but exist sans "male privilege"? If so, please say more. If not, please say more. This question has almost nothing to do with the conversation at hand, just to affirm that suspicion were it to arise.

[planesandtrains]

Are there "men" who exist but exist sans "male privilege"? If so, please say more. If not, please say more. This question has almost nothing to do with the conversation at hand, just to affirm that suspicion were it to arise.

 

No, there aren't. My point was to counter the DontHate's bizarre idea that if you have class privilege, you can't acknowledge class privilege and call out others when they deny its existence.

[practical cat]

Are there "men" who exist but exist sans "male privilege"? If so, please say more. If not, please say more. This question has almost nothing to do with the conversation at hand, just to affirm that suspicion were it to arise.

Trans-men for example. People who are not male but identify as men.

[planesandtrains]

Trans-men for example. People who are not male but identify as men.

 

Okay but trans men are men. And many of them will be the first to tell you that they do, in fact, have male privilege - just not cis privilege.

[Troppman]

No, there aren't. My point was to counter the DontHate's bizarre idea that if you have class privilege, you can't acknowledge class privilege and call out others when they deny its existence.

No doubt, I was feeling your point. I just question the political purchase of totalizing categories such as "male," or "male privilege." And, I find it to be ethically imperative to allow room for such questioning--which is why I tried to create some. Keep it moving y'aal, nothing to see here. (Edit: Legit, I wasn't attacking anybody here. I am actually, mindfully and admittedly, violently derailing the conversation for hedonistic purposes.) 

Edited February 12, 2013 by StephanieDelacour