How snobbish are the Ivys???

[bluecheese]

Those are not "backup plans" for PhD students, they are alternatives.  Could you have done those things?  Maybe.  But you didn't (and you likely think yourself superior for it).  An MBA looks at your professional resume, of which you will have none after you get your PhD.  A "professional school" is open to anyone with the money.  You won't have the money.  I like how you assume high school teaching is a fall back (analyze that privilege!).  It's a different career path.  Many school districts flat out will not hire people with PhDs, not (only) because they are not particularly qualified, but because teacher's unions frown upon the practice.  With largely good reason.

 

I'm sure you have an adjunct friend who makes 35k a year for 60 hour work weeks, no benefits, and no promise of continued employment.  You can call that a privileged life if you would like, but even then that is not you.  You will be making the NYU stipend before you can even dream of employment of any kind, and that stipend is not enough money to even live in the city in which your spectacularly wealthy institution is located.  You will be working at least 60 hours a week, and the stipend is in all likelihood not even guaranteed for a long enough term to finish your dissertation, upon completion of which you will be guaranteed exactly nothing.  If you are lucky you have seventeen years between the day you arrive at a PhD program and the day you become a tenured professor.  And this is a salary you had to claw someone's face off in order to receive.  Ok, it's slightly more than the janitor makes.  Congratulations.  And the sad part is I even envy you, because at this point I am closer to your father than to you.

 

Do you know who isn't critical of the privilege they have? Corporate executives, investment bankers, corporate lawyers, lobbyists, senators, brokers.  Yeah, you say, but they're all assholes.  OK.  They rule the world.  What are you going to do about it?  Direct your meager social capital at maintaining your own slight privilege through the illusion of analysis while they grind your face into the mud, or take that affected academic distance and point the gaze upwards?

 

I get that there are differences between your father and the poor graduate student with no tenure position possible on the other side.  And, to go further, between Tyrelle in the projects and either of those two people.  But to emphasize those differences over the differences that rule and dictate them from above is too convenient and lazy.  If there is anything your education nets you on a social scale, it is this ability to see the forest instead of the trees.

 

PhD students can teach high school, it is harder to teach a unionized public high schools... but there are plenty of opportunities through nonprofits, charter schools, and teaching programs (NYC Teaching Fellows, etc.) Teaching High School is an option if the whole tenure track thing doesn't work out. It is a "fall back" in the same way that getting an MBA, going to Law School, becoming a truck driver, etc. are fall backs... if the thing you're pursuing doesn't work out, it's the thing that you fall back on (I was not giving the PhD any value aside from the value placed in it in terms of personal career preference).

 

Professors and PhD students are often assholes too, especially when they say/do little to challenge power. Further, often people who get PhDs (when it doesn't work out) go get MBAs, go to law school, etc. You're delusional to think that they don't. Also, lots of this supposed "critique" of the forest does little to actually help people -- professors are so caught up in their desire to be critical of the "system as a whole" that they never bother to journey a neighborhood over in their quickly gentrifying cities. I think that is a problem.

[Marie-Luise]

I'm fairly positive that no one on this thread so far has even said that ivies are full of snobs and that rich people are awful. I'm pretty sure that only people so far who have even mentioned anything to the contrary is me just pointing out that class differences in the ivies might be an issue for some students, and plainsandtrains stating that class differences do exist in our culture. I'm a little confused why everyone is being so defensive..?  

 

Thank you!

[Phdoobiedoobiedoo]

If you are engaged in a debate about whether or not you are poor, you're not. People who are legit poor don't talk about it; and if they were going to you certainly wouldn't find them on a graduate school forum. 

[Marie-Luise]

I'm sorry but this is a silly question. You go to a grad school because it's a place for you to do the work you want to do, not because you saw it in a movie and it looked cool. People at the ivies are just people, and at the graduate level they are serious scholars who worked hard to get where they are. You'll find snobs everywhere. Being a snob is not exclusive to fancy name schools.

 

I don't think I ever said that I am applying because I saw a movie. I think I very specifically stated that I applied because I wanted to work with a professor. I was playing up cliches and was curious to see whether people would defend them or dismiss them.

 

Besides, being a snob is a choice imho and not a vocation connected to a brand name. But it's a social phenomenon which fascinates a lot of Europeans. And when Hollywood blows up these cliches and the franchise is succesful, it must mean that there is at least a grain of truth in it.

 

Personally, I don't have time for any kind of snob: social, economical or intellectual. People like this bore me to death.

 

I started this thread because I was genuinely curious about other people's opinions, having very little information to volunteer on my own. I was going on the only thing I knew: cliches and hear-say. I have no issue with being corrected on a misconception; I am more than happy to see someone change my mind; it's often a very rewarding intellectual experience. And I shun the intellectual closet.

 

In the end, the tone makes the music.

[NowMoreSerious]

LOTS of MBA programs that aren't that hard to get into and many of them have extreamly high job placement records (90%+). And the MBA was just an example, any number of professional schools, etc. are there as backup plans for PhD students (teaching in high schools even). People in PhD programs are in privileged positions.

Shit, I have a friend who is working as an adjunct who makes 35k a year (he's working his ass off teaching 4 courses a semester, but still). My father worked as a wage laborer (janitor) for most of his life and never made more than 35k, and he only made close to that when he somehow managed to score a public works job working (working 80+ hours a week). And aside from the two years he worked there, he never made more than 20k. My education puts me in a highly privileged place. The stipend NYU offered me is almost as much as the MOST my father ever made in his entire life. Seriously, if you don't think you're privileged you're delusional. If you're not highly critical of the privilege that you do have, you're an asshole.

I think we need to get out of this, "You are either privileged or your not" type of discourse. For example, yes, we have some cultural capital, (can we use it though, and how?), but in some ways, our job security and job options put us in somewhat of a more precarious position, than, lets say, somebody who works a government sector job, or even other jobs. Unless we get tenure track, and even if we do, we are in this constant state of performing various types of affective labor, networking, job searching, interviewing, and at times wondering where our next job might come from when our contracts are up. This is not to even mention the large amount of debt many of us have from our undergrad or low/underfunded MA's.

What's clear to me is that we are perhaps a new type of worker. Sure, go back 50 years and the class distinctions between a factory worker and a professor are stark. But right now things are a bit more blurry.

At worst, we are buying into some new form of American Dreamism by sitting here talking about our "privilege" because at least we aren't working in the salt mines and we've read tons of books others haven't. But perhaps somebody working in the salt mines, might, in some ways, be in a less precarious position. Maybe in less debt, etc.

Now I am not trying to say somebody working at McDonalds 60 hours a week for 13g's with no prospects isn't in a worse position than I am. But this entire idea that we should be glad that at least we aren't that reeks of a type of ideological class trap.

This whole thing was not meant to be against what you said, by the way.

[thestage]

If you are engaged in a debate about whether or not you are poor, you're not. People who are legit poor don't talk about it; and if they were going to you certainly wouldn't find them on a graduate school forum. 

 

My whole point is that this is manifestly not true, and that this mindset is used to control you.  It is even an assertion of power, as it is used to distance you from "real poor people," who are almost entirely defined by race, education level, and the wealth of their parents.  It reinforces a shrinking distance, because without that distance you have to face uncomfortable realities.  "Recognizing your privilege over them" is just educated talk for establishing yourself as not them, which is largely an exercise in vanity.  And, lo and behold, those who hold the chips are more than happy to appeal to your (or anyone's) vanity.  Turn on the TV and time how long it takes for someone to tell you how awesome you are.

 

And for the record, I think bluecheese and I are arguing a lot of the same points in regards to the expression of education and academic knowledge.

[DontHate]

My whole point is that this is manifestly not true, and that this mindset is used to control you.  It is even an assertion of power, as it is used to distance you from "real poor people," who are almost entirely defined by race, education level, and the wealth of their parents.  It reinforces a shrinking distance, because without that distance you have to face uncomfortable realities.  "Recognizing your privilege over them" is just educated talk for establishing yourself as not them, which is largely an exercise in vanity.  And, lo and behold, those who hold the chips are more than happy to appeal to your (or anyone's) vanity.  Turn on the TV and time how long it takes for someone to tell you how awesome you are.

 

And for the record, I think bluecheese and I are arguing a lot of the same points in regards to the expression of education and academic knowledge.

 

I'm pretty sure this whole "we ain't the REAL poor" mentality is what drove the vicious racism of poor whites towards blacks in the Southern US for hundreds of years.

[thestage]

more or less.

 

I wrote a paper sort of about that once (on Absalom, Absalom!).  it was pretty bad.

[bluecheese]

And for the record, I think bluecheese and I are arguing a lot of the same points in regards to the expression of education and academic knowledge.

 

I agree. I do think that it is important to recognize privilege (as a deformity) in order to try to act in such a way that one doesn't have privilege (when it counts, on a political and community levels). There is a degree in which not acknowledging that privilege can lead to people just thinking that they're great individuals because they study great literature (complicated books by white dudes). I think it is important to crush that idea.

[wreckofthehope]

I think the class differences are much more pronounced in ENGLAND where Oxford is located. I mean they still have a ROYAL FAMILY for christ's sake. 

 

In my experience this is definitely not true and is a very simplistic way of thinking about class.

 

I did my undergrad at Oxford and, yes, children from well off families are hugely disproportionately represented there. I'm doing my PhD at a mid ranked private school in the US (definitely not an Ivy, where I can only presume it is similar, if not worse) and children from well off families are EVEN MORE disproportionately represented here! I don't know how you're defining class Don'tHate, but just because it's more codified and explicit in the UK than the US, that doesn't mean that class differences in the US are not just as prevalent, systemic and pronounced.

Edited February 13, 2013 by wreckofthehope

[wreckofthehope]

To end the male privilege thing, what bluecheese said. I just meant that declaring trans men not really male and thus exempt from male privilege is problematic, as is the idea that male privilege is based on biology - I mean, I know trans men (that means FtM) with beards, big muscles, and low voices! It ain't that simple. (I know that's not what you meant, girl with glasses, and the language is slippery, but I'm just clarifying what I'm responding to.) My original analogy was just meant to say "people with privilege can and should critique privilege," not dictate which groups do and do not have "privilege" and in what contexts or imply that it's simple.

 

DontHate, no one here is pointing fingers at "the privileged." Just the privilege-denying. And the fact that we in the US aren't raised to believe class is not fixed is exactly the point, and why it's more of a problem in the US than most other developed countries - it allows us to deny its existence and makes it invisible, which gives it even more power. Nor is it just a self-designation one can capriciously change. It exerts real influence on people's lives, and is not nearly as fluid as we are all brought up to believe. You keep talking about other people being unreflective and pointing fingers, but from where I'm standing, you're doing the most finger-pointing and the least self-examination.

 

And the stage I mean there's a reason we say socioeconomic class and not just economic class. It's not just determined by the number on your paycheck. Again, it ain't that simple!

 

Okay I gotta be done with this conversation. Back to lurking.

 

Just this, yes.

[conflictedcopy]

It ain't that simple! But that's no excuse. Until $ is no longer a factor in education, we're failing each other. 

[jazzyd]

If you are engaged in a debate about whether or not you are poor, you're not. People who are legit poor don't talk about it; and if they were going to you certainly wouldn't find them on a graduate school forum. 

 

Uh.... what?

[galateaencore]

The fact that you define yourself as non-upper-class because you are not historically rich (or dare I say, not historically American) shows that the American class system is just as entrenched and lineage-based (yes, aristocratic) as the British one.

That said, you know what's elitist? Amherst, Williams, Wellesley. That shit's upper-class and butthurt about not being ivies. This is my way of suggesting that none of this matters outside of freshman frat parties.

I think the class differences are much more pronounced in ENGLAND where Oxford is located. I mean they still have a ROYAL FAMILY for christ's sake. American has no aristocracy. If we did, it would include Kanye and Kim Kardashian and it would be a total joke. I personally believe that a lot of "class" in this country is about education, so if you prevent yourself from getting an Ivy-league education because you're afraid of feeling left out by class difference, then you're really screwing yourself over and reinforcing class difference. Self-segregation is a terrible, terrible thing.

 

I am not from the "upper class" by any stretch, my great-grandparents were running from pogroms when they came to this country and my grandparents lived in poverty on the lower-east side. My parents became professionals through good old-fashioned education and I am currently in that middle-class gap which doesn't benefit from financial aid. So I'm on a loan right now. I went to an Ivy-league undergrad and an Ivy-equivalent Master's program. I'm not a snob. I am a bit of a picky mofo, and I don't put up with weak-mindedness. But that has nothing to do with my educational "pedigree," that's just who I am. I'm an intellectual bitch. And I appreciate other people being hard on me because I think it makes me smarter.

[DontHate]

Ok, I amend my position: The Ivies are totally full of snobs. Don't come here. It's awful.

[bfat]

That said, you know what's elitist? Amherst, Williams, Wellesley. That shit's upper-class and butthurt about not being ivies. This is my way of suggesting that none of this matters outside of freshman frat parties.

 

 

Upvoted for using the term "butthurt."

 

And just because:

[champagne]

As a black/white/yellow/purple female/male/untouchable/entity, I find all of this polemic highly offensive.

 

I'm going home!

 

[Marie-Luise]

Also, this is totally not what the thread was originally about.

[DontHate]

Also, this is totally not what the thread was originally about.

 

Welcome to the internet.

[Marie-Luise]

So, I still haven't heard anything from my programme, but I have been in contact with grad students from my own and other programmes and they have

 

been so nice and helpful that it adds to my overall very positive experience of Harvard. 

[Porridge]

Are you applying to only one place Marie-Luise?

[Marie-Luise]

Yes. It's my dream programme.

[galateaencore]

Yes. It's my dream programme.

just out of casual interest, whom do you want to work with there?

[Marie-Luise]

Jan Ziolkowski for sure, and maybe David Damrosch and Gregory Nagy.

[hidalgo]

I'm pretty sure this whole "we ain't the REAL poor" mentality is what drove the vicious racism of poor whites towards blacks in the Southern US for hundreds of years.

 

 

?  ? ? ?? ??? ?????

 

 

 

????????????????