Worth it to attend a PhD program at a low ranking school?

[dungheap]

Ok so, here we go...get rejected from top tier schools and probably all mid-range targets, get into all safetys, what to do?

 

The overwhelming feelings of dread well up inside of you as you realize you'll never get into these top-tier schools, you fret, act like rank doesn't really mean much, it's only the program content that you're after, right? You convince yourself the locales of the safety schools aren't so bad, and you can probably get by with your sub-standard PhD.

 

What are your goals in life anyways? Academia? Professorship? Industry? Save the world with your own non-profit? Do you want to make money? Does the fact that my school was ranked #84 really matter to anyone outside this esoteric plane of existence?

 

This is sort of my situation as of now, I've worked at one of the best companies in the world, have scattered research all over the place, zero publications or journals, just a work history like a champ. So I'm applying because I'd like to actually learn more than I could teach myself in a garage. I'm almost 30. I'm interested in becoming specialized, I have no real interest in staying in academia. I want to be in the field, directly having impact on people's lives. I have connections to make my dreams come true, I just need to develop myself.

 

So I know the selection process isn't over yet, but I know this is coming pretty much, I will be relegated to a scholarly life of shame at this inadequate university. I thought going to grad school meant going to the top, not for me I guess...

 

Thoughts? I'm considering taking one of these offers. I have the wherewithal and passion to complete the degree, I probably won't pursue a post-doc though. 

[zapster]

Given your motivation - have you considered a research based masters degree instead ?

[dungheap]

Sure of course, and most of the programs I applied to had a masters option to slip into if you didn't make the PhD cut.

 

I'm curious what happens to the people that get PhDs from lower ranking schools? If they want to stay in academia they're basically stuck at their school forever, otherwise where do they all go? Industry?

 

Rarely do you ever see or hear about someone from a state school that's being recognized for their work - I mean it does happen sure. Also, a great deal of the people in these lower ranking programs are international so maybe they just peace out.

 

I feel like this particular brand of nepotism is exactly why there are so many unemployed scientists in the US. Keep a circle of people from top-tier (mostly) universities employed, writing papers, and so forth because they must be the best and most motivated, surely.

[St Andrews Lynx]

I'm curious what happens to the people that get PhDs from lower ranking schools? If they want to stay in academia they're basically stuck at their school forever, otherwise where do they all go? Industry?

 

Rarely do you ever see or hear about someone from a state school that's being recognized for their work - I mean it does happen sure. Also, a great deal of the people in these lower ranking programs are international so maybe they just peace out.

Re. paragraph 1 - most research groups websites have lists of their former students showing where they end up. You can check out where people from your safety schools ended up. Or else if you have names then you probably can search their career trajectories on LinkedIn. If you get your PhD from a lower-ranking school then there are Community Colleges, Small Liberal Arts Colleges and all the universities below yours in the rankings. If you've studied at a place where you support yourself through more TAs than RAs, you'll be in a better position to get a teaching-intensive SLAC job than a student who went to Harvard and spent 6 years doing research.

 

Re. paragraph 2 - I guess it depends what you mean by "recognised"...and where you're looking. I know of PIs at public state universities who reel in a lot of federal & industrial grant money (the grant review panels must therefore consider their work valid). Looking at the latest batch of American Chemical Society Award Winners I can see quite a spread of universities from which the winners come from, including the state schools and places I wouldn't have considered as chemistry strongholds. 

 

Given that you have several years of industrial experience already (& a network within the companies), I'm not sure how much additional benefit a PhD from an elite institution would give you over a PhD from a non-elite school when it came to finding jobs...

[TeaGirl]

I think it depends what your goals are really.

If you want to work in the industry post graduation, you already have experience in a great company and presumably a PhD will only add to that. If you want a research position, then you need to see where exactly you want to go and look at the profiles of people they hire.

 

Sure, maybe MIT or Stanford don't normally hire the average PhD holder from University of X ranked 90. So if your goal is to teach at a top 20 school, then it's not worth it.

If your goal is really to teach then a good research output during your PhD and maybe a post-doc at good university would help you land a job in the many many universities ranked below yours. The most important thing I think in going to a lower ranked school is to find the hotshot professor at that school and work with him/her i.e. find the advisor with the grants, the research output with students' names as first authors, and lists of students in his/her lab that have gone on to successful careers and convince them to take you. There's always at least one or two in every department. A good amount of publications is important to your career as an academic or a researcher (if that is where you're headed).

 

Don't go to a place that you'll regret or hate.

If you feel it's so important that you get into a very strong program but your GPA or background isn't quite there, and you're willing to work for it, then these are some things that will maybe help if you decide to reapply next year:

- You need to get some research experience and some kind of publication out to improve your profile and convince the adcoms that you've got it. I hope it works out for you, but if it doesn't, maybe you can spend some time in a professor's lab somewhere and help with research in return for the experience, a publication, and a letter of recommendation (even better if you can make it paid but don't count on it).

- If it's a low GPA you're trying to overcome, see if you can take some graduate level courses in ME as a non-matriculating student somewhere and ace them.

- If you have a good GPA, then it would seem that perhaps some weak LORs are holding you back? Goes back to the first point. Work with a professor somewhere and get a great LOR.

- You can apply for an MS at a mid level university, do your best and get some research done, then apply for a PhD in some better schools.

- Make sure your SOP is focused in a given direction and not too general or vague. Find the strengths of each program you're applying to and customize your SOP to say you want to work in X field specifically on bla bla bla with professors U V and W for ex.

 

If you do most of the above, I'm sure that would improve your chances considerably.

[Deadmeat]

Rarely do you ever see or hear about someone from a state school that's being recognized for their work - I mean it does happen sure. Also, a great deal of the people in these lower ranking programs are international so maybe they just peace out.

 

You never heard about anyone from UMichigan, Ohio State, Penn State, UC Berkley, UCLA, UMinnessota, or UWashington being recognized for there work?!? I'm sure I missed some schools in there, but some of best programs and the best work in the country comes from state schools. Some of these schools are in the top 10 of research funding (Michigan, Penn State, Minessota come to mind). 

 

To the original poster: 30 isn't THAT old, I'm 29 and just finishing up my master's degree. If you want to be a top school and don't have the background. One suggestion would be get a Master's at a "lower ranked" school then use that a springboard into a top program. Keeping in mind you should produce papers, conference work, and have a stellar graduate GPA, but I'm sure you can do it! I went to an almost nonexistent graduate program after having a pretty bad under grad GPA (by Grad cafe standardrs) of 2.88. Though I have done very well in my Master's program and I have been offered admission with funding to 2 programs in the top 15 of my field.

 

Just an idea to think about!

Edited February 16, 2013 by Deadmeat

[spacezeppelin]

You never heard about anyone from UMichigan, Ohio State, Penn State, UC Berkley, UCLA, UMinnessota, or UWashington being recognized for there work?!? I'm sure I missed some schools in there, but some of best programs and the best work in the country comes from state schools. Some of these schools are in the top 10 of research funding (Michigan, Penn State, Minessota come to mind).    To the original poster: 30 isn't THAT old, I'm 29 and just finishing up my master's degree. If you want to be a top school and don't have the background. One suggestion would be get a Master's at a "lower ranked" school then use that a springboard into a top program. Keeping in mind you should produce papers, conference work, and have a stellar graduate GPA, but I'm sure you can do it! I went to an almost nonexistent graduate program after having a pretty bad under grad GPA (by Grad cafe standardrs) of 2.88. Though I have done very well in my Master's program and I have been offered admission with funding to 2 programs in the top 15 of my field.   Just an idea to think about!

I think we can safely assume that the poster meant lower ranking state schools...not Berkeley and UCLA. Maybe it would have been more accurate to just say lower ranking and leave the public school thing out of it. The point still stands though. Besides, at least in california ive found the term "state school" means a CSU not a UC.

[juilletmercredi]

If you've studied at a place where you support yourself through more TAs than RAs, you'll be in a better position to get a teaching-intensive SLAC job than a student who went to Harvard and spent 6 years doing research.

At most SLACs, the faculty would rather have a Harvard PhD who demonstrated an interest in teaching and perhaps had a bit less experience than someone from an unrecognized or low-ranked program, even if they did teach a lot.  It of course depends on the SLAC and what you mean by low ranked (I'm going with "low ranked" and not "lowER ranked"), but Swarthmore or Rhodes or Sweet Briar is going to want that Harvard PhD unless they show evident disdain for undergrads and/or can't imagine doing research with less than $2 million in start up funds.

 

It really depends on your goals.  My goal was to teach at a higher-ranked teaching-focused LAC or to do research work at the CDC or a top research institute, so my destination needed to be a top-ranked program in my field.  If you're trying to work at competitive firms or NGOs in your industry that typically hire from top programs, then that needs to be a consideration as well.

 

Honestly, given your interests I'm not really sure why you are pursuing a PhD at all.  You can learn more by pursuing the master's, and a PhD doesn't really help you work on the ground with folks.

[ZeChocMoose]

I agree with juilletmercredi.  If you have no interest in academia, I would just attend a master's program and then take it from there especially since it seems like you are interested in going back to industry.  

 

Is a PhD necessary to advance in your organization?  If it is and you have no desire to go tenure track, then I don't think the program's ranking makes that much of a difference as long as the lower ranked PhD program has sufficient ties to industry and you are not paying out of pocket for it.