MS @ Stanford vs. PhD @ Cornell

[Jordan+AirForce1]

hello,

I'm in a bit of a dilemma here...

I got my BS in mechanical engineering a couple of years ago, and i've been working in the industry so far. I've wanted to go back to school and get my masters, so I applied to schools this cycle. I was kind of skeptical about going for PhD, because I have heard (from many different people) that getting a Ph.D will confine you in your career. Overqualify you. Unless I plan to go into the academia, masters should be all I need to work in the industry, I've thought.

So I've applied to masters program to many schools, and I recently got into Stanford for MS, but no funding at all. I also got into Ph.D at Cornell, with full funding. (apparently getting just MS isn't an option anymore in Cornell) Last weekend, I visited Cornell, and found the town to be small but charming. I liked the faculty, and overall, I liked the school.

But the problem is, I can't go for MS at Cornell. Getting MS and getting a job in the industry has been my goal, so I don't know if committing myself to five years of heavy research would be a good choice for me.

On the other hand, I have not visited Stanford or met with the faculty, but obviously it's a very good school for mechanical engineering. The only problem here for me (and most masters students) is the lack of funding. I know I'll accrue a lot of debt if I went to Stanford.

So I just want to see some perspectives and hear what you have to say... Anyone in the same situation or was, in the past, and willing to give me some advice?

[Reinventing]

Wow--this is a tough situation.

Personally, I take the funding issue seriously. I know some people would say, "It's Stanford--go for it!" but debt is pretty expensive these days, and that's in the best-case scenario when everything works out--you graduate, you get a job, etc.

I had an instructor in college who got into Stanford for English (PhD), and opted to go to a state school instead, because they paid her way, and Stanford offered nothing. (She was excellent, BTW! Silly Stanford!) So it does happen. She was older and had a family and "no debt" was really important to her (especially given the field).

Going for a PhD when you didn't intend to seems a bit unusual to me. . . But maybe it's something you should explore, to make sure you wouldn't be passing up something you could potentially enjoy doing (short-term or career-wise). I was under the impression that in some of the more technical areas, a PhD is an asset. Maybe do a quick search of jobs and see if any that require it would be interesting to you.

Just a random thought: I know a lot of engineers get MBAs to advance (they've told me you can move through the ranks with a master's in business; and most were kind of burnt out on engineering-specific work at their companies, and looking to get more into the business side of their company); is that an option?

[Jordan+AirForce1]

Going for a PhD when you didn't intend to seems a bit unusual to me. . . But maybe it's something you should explore, to make sure you wouldn't be passing up something you could potentially enjoy doing (short-term or career-wise). I was under the impression that in some of the more technical areas, a PhD is an asset. Maybe do a quick search of jobs and see if any that require it would be interesting to you.

Thank you for your response! Yea, I know what you mean, so going for Ph.D is not completely out of the picture for me.. I'm trying to gather as much information as possible, and trying to ask around. But with the decision deadline coming next month, I'm at a crossroad where I think I may potentially make a decision that will determine what I do for the rest of my life. Pretty burdensome feeling, haha.

Just a random thought: I know a lot of engineers get MBAs to advance (they've told me you can move through the ranks with a master's in business; and most were kind of burnt out on engineering-specific work at their companies, and looking to get more into the business side of their company); is that an option?

You are a psychic! In fact, I have been exploring that option, and from what I gathered, the optimal path would be MS -> MBA. Getting Ph.D and then exploring MBA would not be conventional. After Ph.D, one would most likely go to either academia or work in the industry as a heavily specialized researcher.. with very little exposure to the management aspect of the company. I just figured MS would be all I'd need if I were to go for MBA.

[liszt85]

Thank you for your response! Yea, I know what you mean, so going for Ph.D is not completely out of the picture for me..

I perceive that what you really want to do is just do a MS and then get a MBA or directly get a job. If you have strong reservations as you seem to have about carrying out research for the next 5-6 years of your life, it probably means that you shouldn't do it. If you think you can repay the loans without going hungry for it, you probably should go ahead and do the MS and I'm guessing you should land a good enough job after a MS from Stanford to enable you to pay off that loan. That's my input for you good luck.

[Reinventing]

Could you go for the MBA right now? I've seen lots of engineers do it (granted, mostly EEs), and I believe that BS->MBA is actually much more common than BS->MS->MBA. Especially if you're okay moving into the business side of the company, going direct to MBA makes sense. If for some reason you need the more specific technical knowledge (let's say you're managing a very technical process, and making judgment calls about which epoxy, etc) or you like a company that has tons of MSs and you'd need one to "join the club", then maybe an MS would make sense; but with the more general areas of the business (or managing a process that already has MS engineers you can consult in your decision making), if you have the BS that might be enough, when combined with your MBA.

[Jordan+AirForce1]

i see your point. However, it has been my understanding that, as an engineering major, if I wanted to go for MBA and enter management, companies will look for someone who can handle technical issues, since the candidate will be working closely with engineers. Because of this, I've heard that getting MS before MBA was the way to go.

I'm not disagreeing with you You are speaking from experience, from seeing people around you, and it is definitely something to think about. Thanks!

Thanks to liszt for your input, as well

[lightyears]

May I ask what you received for funding from Cornell?

The thing that is turning me off from Stanford is that the MS degree there is considered a professional degree, like a MEng at most other schools. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that masters students at Stanford are given a HUGE preference when applying to continue for a PhD though. And since those are always funded, one year's tuition to get into a PhD program isn't that bad in the long run. I know you're not planning on staying for a PhD, but just in case you really like the program, it's something to consider..

Are you still waiting to hear back from the rest of the schools in your signature? You might end up getting funded for a masters...

[Jordan+AirForce1]

May I ask what you received for funding from Cornell?

The thing that is turning me off from Stanford is that the MS degree there is considered a professional degree, like a MEng at most other schools. I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that masters students at Stanford are given a HUGE preference when applying to continue for a PhD though. And since those are always funded, one year's tuition to get into a PhD program isn't that bad in the long run. I know you're not planning on staying for a PhD, but just in case you really like the program, it's something to consider..

Are you still waiting to hear back from the rest of the schools in your signature? You might end up getting funded for a masters...

Sure, I'll quote from my official letter.

"Funding includes tuition, health insurance, and an annual stipend, including summers, of $28,050."

And about continuing to Ph.D, yeah, even though I plan to work in the industry at this moment, I realize that I can experience a change of heart while getting my MS, and decide to go for PhD. Time will tell, I guess...

As for the rest of the schools, yeah, I still have a few more schools I'm waiting to hear back from. Hopefully I'll get a funded MS offer somewhere, and I will have more choice Or it will make my decision even more difficult..

[Reinventing]

Hmm, maybe it's specific to your area of engineering. . . I've worked with hundreds of BS Engineers seeking their MBAs over the last 10 years, and no one told me they were held back in their career because they didn't have an MS. Also, the companies that hired them were happy to have BS Engrs who understood the basics of engineering, but who also had high-level business skills, too (as the latter was their main focus moving forward). Just saying this is what I've seen, and from observing a larger number of BS -> MBAs than most people would run across. Don't want you to spend time/money if you don't have to. Again, maybe the area you are targeting is specific and requires this; but it is not what I have observed "at large" with your regular ol' BS->MBA. Okay, now I'm off my soapbox.

[dino88]

I think you would be making a bad decision to get an MS at Stanford versus a PhD at Cornell. Can't you just drop out and end up with an MS at Cornell if you don't finish the program? Plus it is free. PhDs are more selective. And with all that money that they are paying you at Cornell, you would save a lot each year. Ithaca is cheap compared to Palo Alto. Also, is an MS or MBA really going to differentiate you in the workforce? I suppose if you got a joint MS/MBA at MIT or other. You could always do an MBA part-time. I used to be an engineer...I knew a lot of uppers without graduate degrees. My vote is the PhD - you'll open more doors. There are lots of MSs and MBAs on the job market.

[Aceflyer]

If you're this hesitant about doing a Ph.D., don't go to a Ph.D. program.

[IRdreams]

I think if you are hesitant about going into a PhD for personal reasons, then that is a reason to reject it. However, if the professional concern is your only one, I think you might be over estimating the "overskilled" pigeonholing effect in the sciences. My parents are both PhD scientists working for Hewlett Packard. Both have held management positions and advance technical positions. If anything, a PhD in this environment made them more competitive because everyone in an engineering firm has some base level of technical skills, but the PhDs always were leaps and bounds ahead in this area. In all of the management positions my parents have applied for or held, technical skills were highly valued. Though this emphasis drops off towards the upper-upper level management subsection. An MBA would likely be a good choice as well and if this is your route, then the BS->MS->MBA is probably a good chioce. However, the PhD may actually open up similar doors and will not have the added costs associated with this track.

[Jordan+AirForce1]

Thank you for all your responses.

However, if the professional concern is your only one, I think you might be over estimating the "overskilled" pigeonholing effect in the sciences.

Yeah, I think you might be right on this. It's just that I've been hearing from a lot of people that going for doctorate degree will make me a researcher for good.. And, in some worse cases, companies will rather hire MS engineers, since many positions do not require the PhD education. Why spend more money to hire a PhD, when a MS can do the job? I even heard that being a PhD greatly narrows the employment possibilities in working at a company... Getting a MS will enhance my qualifications, make me flexible to work in many positions, while a PhD will simply make me overqualified for many jobs.

So it has been my understanding that unless I want to do research, be specifically specialized in one field, I should not go for PhD in engineering. So I guess I am paranodoxically afraid of PhD programs :shock:

[Jordan+AirForce1]

Perhaps the most important concern for me is the financial matter. As you know, financial package is very important, and if I eventually went to the PhD option, the major reason will be the financial support I get.

Another thing I've been carefully considering is the financial situation after getting the degree. Here is the comparison I came up with:

1. MS option

Average salary after graduation = $75000 (from their website)

Expected Debt = Anywhere from $70000 to $100000

Time Required for the Degree = 1 year or 1.5 year

2. PhD option

Average salary after graduation = no idea..

Expected Debt = Hopefully zero

Time Required for the Degree = average 5 years.

So as you can see, comparing in short terms, if I went for MS, if I can pay back that debt with the salary in four years or so, it wouldn't be an issue as far as the finance is concerned.

What do you think?

[Reinventing]

I don't know, it's tough. I don't think I'd be as good at paying off all that debt in 4 years, though. It would take me longer.

Talking to other folks in programs similar to mine helped me figure a few things out--are there people you can talk with who've been down these roads? Maybe post on the Chronicle of Higher Ed (I'd be careful about offering too much detail, though)?

[rising_star]

I would explore the possibility of being able to leave Cornell with a MS after 2-3 years if you decide the PhD isn't for you.

I don't know much about your field but, my mom has a PhD and has never had an academic job. Her PhD gives her the ability to supervise teams and has, at times, helped her command a slightly higher salary even when taking a job that isn't directly related to her previous work experience.

[dino88]

I would also challenge you to name one job that you can get with an MS, but not with a PhD. In the end, you are just a salesman to a potential employer.

[Jordan+AirForce1]

thank you for the good advices..

any other opinions ??