Talking it out with you guys; deciding between my 2 top choices

[MacZeeZee]

So, today I got a call that I will be accepted off the waitlist at NYU Steinhardt. I've also been accepted to Fordham's PhD program. Yippee!  

 

So the "problem", if you can even call it that, is that they were essentially tied for my "top" choice this whole application process. There are significant differences in the programs, and serious pros and cons for each. But as of right now, I'm having trouble coming up with a front runner. So, if any of you have the time or inclination to form any opinions on the matter, I would be forever grateful!

 

Here is my current "Pros and Cons" list for Fordham's PhD in Applied Developmental Psychology program:

 

Pros:

 

1. Exactly perfect research match
2. Has Masters-only option
3. Well-established program
4. Has practicum - I want to go into practice, not research, eventually
5. Awesome advisor, I get along with her swimmingly, and she's a young mom (see below)
6. Prestigious fellowship offered; no teaching duties for the 1st year and more money for the next 4 years
7. Will be a “big fish” in this smaller pond, I think

Cons:

 

1. 2 hours away (4 hours total commute time), everyday for at least 2 years
2. TA intensive after 1^st year fellowship
3. VERY quant-heavy (I'm not very stats-savvy)
4. Traditional dissertation option only

 

And here is my list for a PhD in Psychology and Social Intervention at NYU's Steinhardt School of Human Development:

 

Pros:

 

1. 25 minutes away
2. More prestigious faculty and a really cool, flexible program
3. Has practicum as well
4. Offered me a 4-year fellowship (no teaching responsibilities unless I want extra money)
5. Semi-awesome advisor(s)
6. Better dissertation options (3 publishable papers in lieu of one huge dissertation)
7. Less quant-heavy, more options for qualitative or mixed-methods
8. Great neighborhood, and did I mention 25 minutes away?!

Cons:

 

1. No Master’s option
2. Not technically Developmental Psychology, which is the field I'd like to go into
3. Less money per year

 

Okay!  So my biggest concerns are that my husband and I are planning to start a family WHILE I'm in grad school. I know....we're insane. But we've been trying to get pregnant for almost 3 years, and we are sooo sick of waiting. I don't think that I will have any problem multi-tasking and getting my shit done; I've always been a person who needs to be doing a hundred things at once. We are financially very stable. He is in investment banking, and kicking ass, and we currently have a 2 bedroom apartment in a brownstone in an amazing, child-friendly neighborhood in Brooklyn. So everything is our life is ready for a munchkin (or two).

 

I do worry about timing for grad school though...I don't want to lose out on my Fellowships if I do have to take a year LOA (which I would want to do).  I guess I just need to flat-out ASK these schools what will happen if my husband and I do decide to start a family during my time there. But I'm nervous!  Will they withdraw my acceptance?  Will they think I'm insane, or irresponsible? 

 

Having the option to "get out" after 2 years with a Masters at Fordham is a huge plus for me. But being 25 minutes away (especially if I have a little one) is a huge plus for NYU. The other elements seem to be a wash. 

 

Help me think this through people!  Thank you in advance :-)

[selecttext]

You obviously cannot commute 4 hours per day so either you move or you forget about option A. I can't even believe that you are considering having a kid and attending graduate school 2 hours away - does not compute.

Edited March 13, 2013 by selecttext

[Queen of Kale]

Agreed.  Option A doesn't seem viable if you want to have a small child.  Because, you will have to come home suddenly many times for small emergencies with a baby, an 2 hours will seem like an eternity.  

[selecttext]

nevermind the fact that you will be visiting with your child and not parenting.

Edited March 13, 2013 by selecttext

[TakeruK]

While I would agree that I personally would not want a 2-hour commute each way if I was going to be a new parent, I don't think it's fair to judge the OP so harshly on this fact. It sounds like they have thought it through, which is why the long commute is #1 on the con list. I think it's unfair to assume that the OP will be  a bad parent. There are many ways to make it work -- the husband might work closer and/or work at home. The OP doesn't necessarily have to work / come to school every day after the first 2 years. They could only come in for meetings with professors or TAing -- if they stay for a few hours and do readings during the commute, then they can still get almost 6-8 hours of work done in a day. Again, I probably will not choose this if I was in the OP's shoes, and it's one thing to point out the increased complication of raising a small child with a long commute -- I especially agree with Queen of Kale's point about 2 hours being a really long way away if there's an emergency (hopefully the spouse is closer to home!). However, it's another thing to imply that the OP is going to be a poor parent because they aren't going to be home with the children. It's not the 1950s anymore, spouses can take turns being at home, or maybe they have family members nearby etc.

 

To the OP: can you check with your school and fellowships for the Leave of Absence rules? The fellowships I've encountered usually allow you to suspend a fellowship (you won't get the money but you can still resume it without penalty later) for medical reasons (including childbirth and raising a child). Sometimes fellowships will even continue to pay you during your year off (but then the fellowship will run out a year early). We are planning to start a family at some point during my PhD too, so this was a big factor in making a decision! 

 

Personally, I would choose the second option because it seems more flexible and you will have a lot more freedom. The lower pay doesn't sound like it would be as big of a problem. It does sound like the first choice might be a better fit for your career goals, and maybe you can get what you want with a Masters. I don't know enough about your field to give more advice than that though.

 

Also, I know a grad student who is recently a mother and she has a 2 hour commute to school. She did wait until courses were finished before having a baby though. She took a year leave of absence (standard in Canada) and now only commutes to work whenever she has to meet with her advisor. The rest of the time, she works from home and/or Skypes with her collaborators! It did help that she was on fellowship and did not have to TA though.

 

Good luck! 

Edited March 13, 2013 by TakeruK

[na3eem]

how is Fordham 2 hours away from u and NYU is only 25 mins? Im in Pougheekspie and they r both 65 miles from me

[buzhidao]

how is Fordham 2 hours away from u and NYU is only 25 mins? Im in Pougheekspie and they r both 65 miles from me

subway

[Lin111]

I've been commuting about 2 hrs 15min (one-way) so about 4 and a half hours to the graduate school I currently attend. The kicker is, I only have to do this ONCE a week (as I am finishing up my master's). It is incredibly draining to do this (obviously once a week is fine, but 5 days a week? I would die). I would go as far to say that the 4-hours commuting would outweigh almost EVERYTHING that you mentioned as being 'better' at Fordham. You need to be realistic, you cannot commute 4 hours a day and be productive/energized to do research ESPECIALLY when you're thinking about starting a family. It is out of the question, in my mind anyway. 

[bamafan]

The commute for A is not an option even if you are single with no children and no obligations at all whatsover. It's simply beyond reason.

[MacZeeZee]

I really appreciate all the opinions guys. And yeah....4 hours is brutal. Because it's on the train, I would be doing work during the commute, and would therefore not have necessarily that much more time away from my kiddos (I wouldn't have to take time to do most of my reading at home, I could do probably all of it on the train). 

 

Just so we're clear, though, I would be taking a LOA to care for my child during their infancy. And, since it's coming down to probably doing IVF, I can probably time it pretty well to....Get pregnant in September / October (of this year or next), be pregnant during the coursework year, have baby around May / June, and then have that summer, the whole next year, then the next summer, just taking care of the bub. Baby would be (approximately) 14 months old before I would have to go back to school. I would feel less horrible about having childcare at 14 months old than, like, 2 months old. 

 

And my spouse works very close to home, and works for his brother; therefore he has AMPLE opportunity to be home with our child when I can't be (emergencies included). He already has the option of working from home whenever he needs to (his office mates with children often only come into the office on Fridays). I imagine we'd realistically only need to have about 15 hours of paid childcare a week in this scenario, although maybe more or less depending on my coursework timing. 

 

So yeah. Fordham is doable....but not ideal. I guess I'm just nervous about not having an out at NYU for a Masters option. But conversely, maybe having an out isn't such a great idea. I'm less likely to finish if I have an out....

 

You've all helped tremendously. Keep the opinions coming! (even the mean ones   )

[selecttext]

You can't have everything and I suggest you ask yourself if a baby's life would be better or worse to have its mother 4 hours away at the start of each day - and quite frankly, being with child, will you really want to be away so far and so often? This is not a well thought out plan. Is it really going to make a huge difference in your life if you wait 2 more years to have a baby? Probably not, so since option A is what you actually want, why not keep waiting?

[Inyo]

I currently teach in a pretty awesome teaching job (as far as the high school world goes), and one of my coworkers as a ~ 2 hour each way commute this year. It has absolutely exhausted him this year. He is phenomenal at his job, and I'm sure the school offered him piles of money to stay (private schools can do that!), but he's leaving after just one year. 

 

The (rather large) straw that broke the camel's back was his wife getting pregnant with their first child. She needs to live close to her (better paying) job, so moving isn't an option. He made it clear that the 2 hour commute + small child was absolutely unfathomable, even though he had been coping with the 2 hour commute for a while.

 

Now, all of that said, not to be harsh, but IVF doesn't have great success rates, making it quite hard to time a pregnancy. You may find that you can't get pregnant at all. Or you may end up with twins or another type of complication (which is more common with IVF) that prevents you from attending school after 4 or 5 months. 

 

This cuts both ways: I'd hesitate to give up the option of a school that might be a better fit for a child that might never come to be. I'd also be wary of having to commute so far while going through those medical procedures, because it will add additional stress to an already very stressful process. 

 

Fertility treatments can wreck havoc on your emotional state (both for psychological reasons and physiological ones--hormones CAN do crazy things to you). Infertility is hard, and there are no easy answers. I'd sit down and talk to your spouse about how you could handle all of these stresses. Maybe talk to a couple's therapist who works with couples going through infertility treatments (your doc should be able to recommend someone). I think the issue here is more complicated than just the commute, the pros and cons of each school, and the possibility of a baby. You have to decide what is best for your family, which is always a hard question. 

[JungWild&Free]

I've heard of people leaving PhD programs after the masters.  I think it's probably really frowned upon but it's not like you have to stay if your circumstances change and you can't commute.  In terms of getting pregnant and assuring you can have an LOA, technically it is illegal for the school to penalize you for getting pregnant and they can't deny you maternity leave.  Perhaps you want more time than is standard, but I would suspect that some people will be at least somewhat understanding about that. 

 

If you just want a masters though, taking 14 months off during a 2 year program just seems kind of illogical. Why not get the masters and then start a family?  I think 2 hours both ways sounds like a nightmare, but it sounds like you're willing to do it and if you're willing to do it, Fordham sounds like a better match for your interests to me.  I would suggest thinking of the baby as separate from the decision since it is probably not imperative that you have a baby in the next 2 years, but you will have pressing school committments to complete.

[wanderingalbatross]

I know most of these responses are about the baby issue, and the assumption that a parent wouldn't be around, but I'd be more concerned about your success in school with a 2-hour commute each way. A family member of mine has a commute like this for work and has been doing it for 2 years, but she is always tired, only gets to see her husband for a few hours in the evening before everyone crashes in bed because they're so exhausted, and she's gained significant weight from the combo of (1) sitting in a car for 4 hours a day, and (2) not being able to use that time for exercise. It's a miserable situation. I think anyone would be miserable.

[tarrman]

Taking a LOA in your 2nd year isn't a very good idea. This is the time when you're really getting into research, preparing for quals, finishing up courses, etc. There's another thread around here that covers why you shouldn't take a LOA in the 2nd year.

 

Why not put off the Ph.D. for a couple years while you have your baby? You are picking the worst time to try and raise a family, and I don't think you have anything to gain starting your Ph.D. next year if you're just gonna take a year off at the end of this coming year. I suggest you revaluate what you want in life because you are choosing an extremely difficult path.

 

I think you are underestimating just how difficult this will all be. Many people put in close to 60 hours a week in their Ph.D. Something's gotta give if you really want to have all the things you've listed.

[mali_g]

The two cents of someone familiar with the Fordham area, currently living in Brooklyn:

 

If you don't limit yourself to the subway and are disciplined about train times, you can do the trip via subway/MetroNorth (which drops you right at the Fordham gate) in about 1-1.25 hrs. It's a bit pricier, but if you're not traveling at rush hour MNR is MUCH cleaner, more reliable, and a better environment for getting work done while commuting. I know nothing about your field and obviously the question of parenting complicates the decision further, but I do know grad students who have a similar commute and manage.

[ak48]

The commute for A would be completely untenable for me.

[MacZeeZee]

JungWild&Free - Most programs you can just leave with a Masters degree even though it is frowned upon. But for some reason, NYU does not offer this option at all. You could be ABD, 4 years into a program, and you would walk away with nothing (other than great experience and loads more knowledge...which arguably is the point, right?)

 

Inyo - Thank you for the response. I think you're absolutely correct. As someone who has gone through fertility treatments, you're right: going through infertility is incredibly difficult. My husband and I are in couples / infertility specific therapy, we both belong to support groups, and we're dealing with those issues as best we can. It's hard to decide what's best, that's for sure. 

 

I've always wanted to go to graduate school. We had to move around a bit for my husbands job, and now we've landed. We decided that what was best was to have a child first, then send me to school. Well...3 years later and we still haven't gotten pregnant. I can't keep waiting for my life to start. 

 

Of course, Baby > Graduate school, at all times. Under every circumstance.  If it turns out that I can't finish a degree because my kids will be better off....so be it. But I also believe that all other things being equal, I'd rather be in school in my time I'm away from my children than working some dead-end job. I want that PhD!

 

I was hoping to get some more responses from people with direct experience in raising kids (especially young kids) during a PhD program. Any of you out there?

[spacezeppelin]

I dont really know anything about the programs or having kids, but the second option still sounds better in my opinion. Not being able to get out in two years might be motivation to finish, which is probably what you want. If your husband makes a good amount of money you don’t really need more anyway. Being closer will make your life SOOOO much easier. To me, it seems like a pretty easy choice. AND the school is "better."

 

Four hours in a car? I think I would PASS.

[mrmolecularbiology]

So, today I got a call that I will be accepted off the waitlist at NYU Steinhardt. I've also been accepted to Fordham's PhD program. Yippee!  

 

So the "problem", if you can even call it that, is that they were essentially tied for my "top" choice this whole application process. There are significant differences in the programs, and serious pros and cons for each. But as of right now, I'm having trouble coming up with a front runner. So, if any of you have the time or inclination to form any opinions on the matter, I would be forever grateful!

 

Here is my current "Pros and Cons" list for Fordham's PhD in Applied Developmental Psychology program:

 

Pros:

 

1. Exactly perfect research match
2. Has Masters-only option
3. Well-established program
4. Has practicum - I want to go into practice, not research, eventually
5. Awesome advisor, I get along with her swimmingly, and she's a young mom (see below)
6. Prestigious fellowship offered; no teaching duties for the 1st year and more money for the next 4 years
7. Will be a “big fish” in this smaller pond, I think

Cons:

 

1. 2 hours away (4 hours total commute time), everyday for at least 2 years
2. TA intensive after 1^st year fellowship
3. VERY quant-heavy (I'm not very stats-savvy)
4. Traditional dissertation option only

 

And here is my list for a PhD in Psychology and Social Intervention at NYU's Steinhardt School of Human Development:

 

Pros:

 

1. 25 minutes away
2. More prestigious faculty and a really cool, flexible program
3. Has practicum as well
4. Offered me a 4-year fellowship (no teaching responsibilities unless I want extra money)
5. Semi-awesome advisor(s)
6. Better dissertation options (3 publishable papers in lieu of one huge dissertation)
7. Less quant-heavy, more options for qualitative or mixed-methods
8. Great neighborhood, and did I mention 25 minutes away?!

Cons:

 

1. No Master’s option
2. Not technically Developmental Psychology, which is the field I'd like to go into
3. Less money per year

 

Okay!  So my biggest concerns are that my husband and I are planning to start a family WHILE I'm in grad school. I know....we're insane. But we've been trying to get pregnant for almost 3 years, and we are sooo sick of waiting. I don't think that I will have any problem multi-tasking and getting my shit done; I've always been a person who needs to be doing a hundred things at once. We are financially very stable. He is in investment banking, and kicking ass, and we currently have a 2 bedroom apartment in a brownstone in an amazing, child-friendly neighborhood in Brooklyn. So everything is our life is ready for a munchkin (or two).

 

I do worry about timing for grad school though...I don't want to lose out on my Fellowships if I do have to take a year LOA (which I would want to do).  I guess I just need to flat-out ASK these schools what will happen if my husband and I do decide to start a family during my time there. But I'm nervous!  Will they withdraw my acceptance?  Will they think I'm insane, or irresponsible? 

 

Having the option to "get out" after 2 years with a Masters at Fordham is a huge plus for me. But being 25 minutes away (especially if I have a little one) is a huge plus for NYU. The other elements seem to be a wash. 

 

Help me think this through people!  Thank you in advance :-)

I do not see any graduate program being ok with a LOA. If it is only a single semester maybe anymore and you are a drain on their resources. Why would they want someone who is going to have a break in their productivity over someone who is completely committed to grad school? 

[TakeruK]

I do not see any graduate program being ok with a LOA. If it is only a single semester maybe anymore and you are a drain on their resources. Why would they want someone who is going to have a break in their productivity over someone who is completely committed to grad school? 

 

I don't understand why you think graduate schools are against students taking leaves of absences. I know plenty of students who have done so, and also some faculty members too and sure it might be a little extra work to get back in the swing of things, but it's better to allow a productive person to take the time they need off, do whatever they have to do, and return motivated and ready to work. 

 

Most people on LOA do not get paid, so it's not a huge drain on school resources. My old grad school allowed PhD students to take a year's worth of LOA for each child and the maternity/parental leave benefit was allowed to be used twice per degree.

[mrmolecularbiology]

I don't understand why you think graduate schools are against students taking leaves of absences. I know plenty of students who have done so, and also some faculty members too and sure it might be a little extra work to get back in the swing of things, but it's better to allow a productive person to take the time they need off, do whatever they have to do, and return motivated and ready to work. 

 

Most people on LOA do not get paid, so it's not a huge drain on school resources. My old grad school allowed PhD students to take a year's worth of LOA for each child and the maternity/parental leave benefit was allowed to be used twice per degree.

I guess it depends on the field and the security of the lab. For instance the lab I work in now funding is so tight that a drop in productivity could be a death sentence for funding. I do not see my boss willingly giving someone a LOA.

 

If you are going to take a LOA, work with a professor who is already tenured. New faculty really depend on their students to be productive. The more papers a lab has published the easier obtaining grants becomes.

Edited March 14, 2013 by mrmolecularbiology

[MacZeeZee]

Thanks for the responses. 

 

I think I've decided to go with NYU. I've spoken to my POIs at both NYU and Fordham, and it turns out BOTH had their first child while in graduate school (talk about a lucky coincidence!). Both had them between their 3rd and 4th years; one took a year off, and so she finished a year later than her cohort, and the other managed to finish on time with the help of local family members to do some childcare.

 

I was really nervous about bringing this up with them. When I approached them about it, they both seemed very supportive. They told me in no uncertain terms that your life doesn't (and shouldn't) stop while getting a PhD, and that they as a department are generally pretty family-friendly. They gave me information about when it is appropriate to take a LOA vs. working on a flexible schedule vs. working "part-time" (but without financial support from the university.....essentially just a LOA with you doing some of the work for the next year during your leave).

 

I feel really good about this decision. My husband and I will decide WHEN the timing will be right, and hopefully it will all work out.

 

But I think I'm going with NYU!  Yippeee!