Harvard GSAS The Study of Religion

[sacklunch]

I imagine the number comes from MDiv numbers, if it's accurate at all. It is well known that almost every institution accepts far more MDiv students than MTS/MAR; though there are exceptions, like BC (because clergy are male).

[AurantiacaStella]

Can I ask where you're getting your 50% acceptance rate? From everything I've heard and read, it seems to be much more selective--while not as selective as the PhD (of course,) the numbers I've seen have been at least half that. One year's acceptance rate--from HDS material--was 7%. The only time I've seen the 50% rate was on here.

It is not widely publicized but it is around 50% for both the MTS and MDiv at HDS. That's not to say there are not many quality students; the MTS is an especially large program. Page 10 of this report on the study of religion at Harvard (commissioned by the Harvard President) includes the citation you want: http://www.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/content/Statement_on_Religion_Report_09192012.pdf

[Lux Lex Pax]

I think the 50% acceptance rate is pretty common across the board at the top master's degree programs in theology/divinity/religion. I recall seeing some numbers a few years ago that stated that PTS and Duke were the most selective programs to get into (approximately between 25-35% acceptance rates). The fact is that these programs aren't very competitive, as compared to law, medicine, business, etc., and the situation only gets worse once you go beyond the Harvards, Yales, Princetons, and Dukes. I've heard professors for years bemoan the precipitous drop in the quality of students that now study in seminaries and divinity schools. So, maybe students in other programs or units of the university rightly complain about the quality of divinity students, which the Harvard report seems to hint at when it mentions reducing the size of the MTS program to improve student quality.

[sacklunch]

Edited March 23, 2013 by jdmhotness

[PeanutButterJellyTime]

Very true. It is a bit strange that these top worldwide institutions accept so many people into their graduate programs. When people from outside the field say OMGEZ JOHN GOT INTO HARVARD/YALE! I tend to want to remind them of their relatively high acceptance rate, which as you said, compared to other graduate degrees is infinitely higher. I can sort of see why they would accept a lot more MDivs, but they should (IMO) restrict the MTS/MAR degrees to highly qualified folks (which Duke is and has been doing).

 

What's to say that they don't already restrict it to "highly qualified folks?" This whole thread reeks of academic superiority. Who defines this term? HDS, even with its high acceptance rate, is still a very well regarded program, and still operates under the auspices of the name "Harvard." The students that are getting in are not idiots, as this thread makes it out to seem.

If anyone else read the report quoted above, it clearly stated that part of the reason HDS can admit so many MTS candidates is due to funding. It is a well known fact that Harvard and HDS on the whole have much greater endowements than most all other universities, and can afford to take on so many students. I can't imagine that more "selective" programs (and, it has to be noted, smaller--in all respects--faculty, resources, cohort size, funding, etc) would ever actually want to operate under such limited resources as they have been. And, as a point of clarification--a 50% acceptance rate is NOT "infinitely higher."

[AurantiacaStella]

What's to say that they don't already restrict it to "highly qualified folks?" This whole thread reeks of academic superiority. Who defines this term? HDS, even with its high acceptance rate, is still a very well regarded program, and still operates under the auspices of the name "Harvard." The students that are getting in are not idiots, as this thread makes it out to seem.

I certainly didn't mean to say that HDS students are idiots. In some of the postings above I was trying to convey the *perception* of div school students within Harvard at large. Whether fair or not, there is hostility to div school students at Harvard and elsewhere.

[AurantiacaStella]

I do want to add though that I am not sure it is fair to the students that HDS (and other schools) admit so many to the MTS program. The vast majority of MTS students want to pursue PhDs and it is statistically impossible for all of them to do so. So, apart from as a stepping stone to a PhD degree, what use does the MTS have? Everyone thinking about getting an MTS should consider this question and decide whether an MTS would have value for them if they choose a non-academic career path.

[sacklunch]

What's to say that they don't already restrict it to "highly qualified folks?" This whole thread reeks of academic superiority. Who defines this term? HDS, even with its high acceptance rate, is still a very well regarded program, and still operates under the auspices of the name "Harvard." The students that are getting in are not idiots, as this thread makes it out to seem.

If anyone else read the report quoted above, it clearly stated that part of the reason HDS can admit so many MTS candidates is due to funding. It is a well known fact that Harvard and HDS on the whole have much greater endowements than most all other universities, and can afford to take on so many students. I can't imagine that more "selective" programs (and, it has to be noted, smaller--in all respects--faculty, resources, cohort size, funding, etc) would ever actually want to operate under such limited resources as they have been. And, as a point of clarification--a 50% acceptance rate is NOT "infinitely higher."

 

I, too, did not intend to speak against the program or its students. I know quite a few people who went there and they are all smart people. Point taken.  

 

best

[Lux Lex Pax]

What's to say that they don't already restrict it to "highly qualified folks?" This whole thread reeks of academic superiority. Who defines this term? HDS, even with its high acceptance rate, is still a very well regarded program, and still operates under the auspices of the name "Harvard." The students that are getting in are not idiots, as this thread makes it out to seem.

If anyone else read the report quoted above, it clearly stated that part of the reason HDS can admit so many MTS candidates is due to funding. It is a well known fact that Harvard and HDS on the whole have much greater endowements than most all other universities, and can afford to take on so many students. I can't imagine that more "selective" programs (and, it has to be noted, smaller--in all respects--faculty, resources, cohort size, funding, etc) would ever actually want to operate under such limited resources as they have been. And, as a point of clarification--a 50% acceptance rate is NOT "infinitely higher."

1) The field as a whole is less competitive than law, medical, or business schools.

2) The quality of students now studying at seminaries and divinity schools has dropped.

Once upon a time, when the liberal-Protestant establishment still reigned supreme, religion (and theology) mattered in American society. The public square had room for reasoned religious voices that tried to articulate how a long intellectual tradition affected public issues. It was exciting, for some, to be connected to this movement. But, for various reasons (immigration, pluralism, loss of tradition, self-undermining, etc.), it has been in decline. Where once the call to ministry was a noble vocation on par with that of being a lawyer or doctor, it has lost the standing it once had. Ministry is no longer as attractive as law, medicine, or business, and, therefore, attracts lower quality students than it once did. As a seminary president recently put the matter, seminaries and divinity schools now face a brain drain from divinity to law, medicine, and business.

I don't see how this reeks of superiority. These are just the facts. I've heard professors complain time and again about the quality of students and their lack of preparation in even the most basic of subjects. Students enter, professors say, with little knowledge of the tradition and poor writing skills. Things that were taken for granted a generation ago are no longer the case.

Are Harvard divinity students idiots? No, I never implied it. There is, however, a qualitative difference between students at Harvard Law or Medical and Harvard Divinity. Part of the issue, I believe following Hauerwas, is that people think that it's more important to have someone knowledgeable drafting your contracts or diagnosing your illnesses than caring for your soul. There's just a gravitas in the study of law and medicine that isn't present in the study for ministry. Very few in divinity programs, besides conservative evangelical ones -- and they have their own issues, approach what they study as if it really mattered to the people in the pews.

I think, in part, that this may also be the source of antipathy to religion and the study of religion at Harvard. Some at Harvard are hostile toward religion qua religion to begin with, but then you have less qualified and prepared students taking classes in other units of the university, completely oblivious to their "academic deficits," to put it mildly.

And point of clarification, just because the school operates under the auspices of name Harvard doesn't mean it's highly regarded in the field. Many in the field think that HDS has been in decline for a while. Look at the great faculty members they've lost within the last few years: Sarah Coakley, Mark Jordan, Leigh Schmidt, R. Marie Griffith, etc. These incredible scholars were basically pushed out because of the hostile environment at HDS and Harvard more generally. Moreover, with the passing of Thiemann, there isn't much there in terms of traditional Christian theology. Maybe the new dean can change course, but let's not kid ourselves about the facts on the ground. It was also well known that HDS was going through financial difficulties before the financial crisis that rocked the economy.

I'm not trying to pick on Harvard. These are general issues affecting the entire field, but since this thread was about Harvard specifically, my comments were about Harvard.

[11Q13]

It is true that HDS is looked down upon by GSAS. When you cross-register for a class in GSAS as an HDS student, you feel like you have to prove that you aren't an idiot, because for some reason that is what GSAS assumes.

This mindset can be attributed to the fact that the MTS admits almost 50% of applicants, while the grad programs (all phd-level I believe) in GSAS are incredibly more selective. I don't think this is as true for HDS ThDs, but within Harvard as a whole, CSR PhDs would definitely be more well-regarded by other humanities grad students.

 

I never experienced this when I cross registered in other departments, if anything it was the opposite, some were blown away at the number of languages some of us work in.

[PeanutButterJellyTime]

I never experienced this when I cross registered in other departments, if anything it was the opposite, some were blown away at the number of languages some of us work in.

 

Thank you for saying that. Good luck with your interviews. :-)

[yhujikol]

Dos anyone know if the merging of the PhD and ThD will actually happen?

[AurantiacaStella]

I never experienced this when I cross registered in other departments, if anything it was the opposite, some were blown away at the number of languages some of us work in.

My guess is this perception probably depends on the department. And I would add that once you disproved their initial negative perception, everything was just fine.

[AurantiacaStella]

Dos anyone know if the merging of the PhD and ThD will actually happen?

It sounds likely, but the committee is still meeting and nothing firm has been decided.

[newenglandshawn]

It sounds likely, but the committee is still meeting and nothing firm has been decided.

So what would that mean on a practical level? Would the PhD program be expanded, or would the ThD program (funding, number accepted, etc.) merely disappear?

[AurantiacaStella]

So what would that mean on a practical level? Would the PhD program be expanded, or would the ThD program (funding, number accepted, etc.) merely disappear?

 

I have no clue since the committee hasn't given a report of possible ways of merging the two, but I don't think funding lines would just disappear. I would think they would aim for a larger PhD cohort.

[yhujikol]

Do you know if current ThD students will have to finish the ThD before they get rid of it or if they will be merged into the PhD program? And does this sound like it would happen in the next 5 years, 20 years? any ideas?

[AurantiacaStella]

I doubt that anyone would be merged into the other program after starting the ThD. I'm sure they would tell anyone who is enrolling about it whenever this all happens. And with the way these things go, it could take quite a while to happen.