Choosing a POI

[playingivory]

Debated whether to start this as a new thread or not, but I figure there could be ways to branch this discussion out further, so here goes:

 

So, it goes without saying that at any program you apply to, you need a viable POI with whom you could work. There are several schools that I've found someone I'm interested in studying with who are Assistant Professors (one in particular that I'm VERY interested in - at Princeton, so maybe New England Nat could weigh in a bit further here...). I'm concerned that if I were to be accepted, I'd get partially through my studies and my adviser wouldn't get tenured (or some other scenario) and leave. This was also a concern with older professors, but the ones I contacted were pretty up front that they were planning retirement and referred me to other POIs at their school or elsewhere...and their transparency was appreciated.

 

Also- my undergrad thesis adviser is a recent graduate from Oxford. She mentioned that in the UK, you find a POI and if you get them to agree to work with you, you essentially get into that school, granted you meet their requirements. (At least, that's apparently how it worked for her?) This boggles my mind a bit.

 

Anyone encountered these situations? How did you handle it? Thoughts?

[remenis]

 

There are several schools that I've found someone I'm interested in studying with who are Assistant Professors (one in particular that I'm VERY interested in - at Princeton, so maybe New England Nat could weigh in a bit further here...). I'm concerned that if I were to be accepted, I'd get partially through my studies and my adviser wouldn't get tenured (or some other scenario) and leave. This was also a concern with older professors, but the ones I contacted were pretty up front that they were planning retirement and referred me to other POIs at their school or elsewhere...and their transparency was appreciated.

 

You shouldn't apply to a school where the person you really want to work with is an Assistant Professor. The fact is, you won't get into this situation where you're there for a few years and then your untenured advisor leaves because you are almost certainly not going to be accepted to such a program - untenured professors generally don't take on their own PhD students. They are often committee members or secondary resources for grad students, but grad schools generally don't accept students who want to work primarily with a person who is untenured and in most programs you are not even allowed to list an untenured professor as your primary advisor. When I was applying, I had been working as a research assistant for a professor at a great school whose work I really liked - I talked to her about the application process and she said outright, "You can't apply here, because I'm not tenured." At least at this school, applications to work with untenured profs are not even considered, and my understanding is that this is generally the same in most programs and that it is especially at the ivies, where assistant prof's only rarely earn tenure. Sorry to be so doom and gloom about this

The second situation you brought up, going to grad school then having your advisor retire, is much more common. It's not that big of an issue if your advisor retires when you are close to being done with your dissertation - they generally stick around, and will still review dissertation chapters and write letters of recommendation. (My advisor, for example, told me that he is planning to retire in about five years, but if it takes me another six years to finish my dissertation, no problem). It's only an issue if they retire or are planning to retire while you would still need to take coursework with them. But, if you contacted these professors and they told you outright that they are planning to retire and then referred you to other people - this is their polite way of saying they are not interested in taking on new students and that you shouldn't apply to work with them. Professors (if they respond) are generally pretty up front, so if you contact an older professor and they do not tell you they are planning to retire, then you can assume it's safe to apply and that if they accept you, they will be committed to helping you complete the degree.

I don't really know how the system works in the UK - but I can tell you that what you described is not true in all american schools. It tends to vary pretty widely depending on the way the school structures their grad admissions and the particular clout of the professor. At one school I applied to, two of the professors, my POI and another, contacted me to let me know they had chosen to accept me in the field and really wanted me to come there, but unfortunately, the graduate committee got to make the final say and in the end I was waitlisted - in that case the POI certainly did not get to make the decision. In reverse, my current advisor contacted me in January the year I had applied to tell me that he loved my application and wanted me to go there. He also told me not to worry about the committee, (which hadn't even met yet), becuase in 20 years of working there the commitee had never not just accepted the students his field had put forward for admission - meaning, that much like you described he essentially chooses the students he wants, and they get in as long as they fit the basic requirements.

I hope this helps - PM me if you want more specific information.

[CrazyCatLady80]

I don't think Assistant Professors take graduate students. They work on their committees, but not as their main advisors. One thing that I am in in the process of weighing is working with a newly minted Associate Professor. Two of the advisors from my top three schools just recently got tenure. The advantage is that they are looking for students, but the disadvantage is that you have clue what they will be like once you are on the job market. Also, advising is an art form. It takes years to perfect it. 

[Phdoobiedoobiedoo]

I wouldn't assume that an older professor isn't planning on retiring just because they tell you they aren't planning on it. I specifically asked my POI, who was an older professor, if they had plans to retire because I wanted to work with someone actively teaching and someone who would be there for the entirety of my time at XXX University. This person assured me that they would in fact be there and weren't retiring and that I was smart to check first. I sent my app, won a University Fellowship, and went to this school. TWO WEEKS after classes started she retired. Said she'd still teach and didn't, said she'd still be available and wasn't. I couldn't afford to reapply that first semester to other schools, so was kind of stuck. So I had no classes in my area within the field and was just kind of reading and teaching myself, exactly what I didn't want. I could have stayed home and done that with a library card. The following year at a meeting with her (about my upcoming candidacy exams and diss topic) in mid-November she told me that she was joining the Peace Corps and was leaving the country for an Eastern European backwater for 27 months. It would have been very helpful to have had this information a bit earlier, like when the Peace Corps apps were due in Aug/Sept. Again, the middle of November was too late to apply elsewhere (couldn't come up with the money for the apps/retaking expired GRE that late in the year). I realize this is an unusual situation, but I would advise avoiding older professors like the plague, as in if the thought that they might be retirement age occurs to you, move on, or at least make sure there are others who teach the same period/topic in case the older POI bows out. There were other professors at my school who taught the same geographic field, but in a completely different century and weren't interested in/qualified to work on my area. My field is one that usually only has one specialist at any given school. So in order to get the degree I want I have to leave and go to another school and essentially start all over again. I don't think there is anything wrong with working with a new Assoc Prof. There are several in my dept who are fantastic teachers. actively publishing quality stuff on a regular basis, and have described as "so and so is going to be huge in the field". Also, I find that a younger professor is often more on top of the most recent scholarship. Again, my situation is pretty much a one-off, but you are right to do your homework, and that includes inquiring about a POI's plans for the future. Good luck!

[sweetcheese]

Hi there playingivory,

 

First, I'm a Michigan undergrad who just went through the application process... I'm a medievalist, but I'm sure we've had a class together at some point! So hello again maybe!

 

Second, I went through the process for musicology, but did apply to one history-related program. I spent the past two years making contacts in the field at conferences, meeting professors that I might want to work with, etc... I would say that this process helped me, but far more on a personal level than anything. There were institutions that I felt more comfortable applying to knowing my POI, but when it came down to university decisions, I don't think that played into where I was accepted or rejected.

 

When I interviewed at schools or spoke with faculty (I applied to a UK school, and obviously couldn't visit on my own dime), it was clear that I was accepted based on my merits, and not solely on POI's interest in working with me. I'm certainly not saying that it was a waste of time meeting people and spending money on going to conferences, but in the end, it never gave me a "one-up" in the application process. What it did give me, however, was a personal sense of who I wanted to work with and the types of programs those types of people were teaching in.

 

To address the status of the professor, I applied to programs where the POI was going to be in the final stages of their career, and programs where they were in the first. I got rejected from the two programs where my POI was very young. Perhaps that's by chance(those programs weren't taking someone with my interests, my application wasn't strong enough, etc...), but I do think it has to do a bit with what the previous posters mentioned: it's a bit rare for assistant professors to take on PhD students.

 

Hope that helps a bit, and feel free to PM me...Go blue!

[Simple Twist of Fate]

To balance what's been said, I will offer a different kind of example: an asst. prof. at my current institution has three doctoral advisees. She's something of a rising star in her field (has been described as a "rockstar," etc.) and I don't think there's any doubt she'll get tenure. Another student I know applied to work with an untenured faculty member - instead of rejecting her, they worked with her to change her advisor to another, well-suited, tenured faculty member. 

 

In some situations, it does make sense to apply to work with an asst. prof. One way to tell - emailing them. Another way - if the dept. website has a list of graduate students and their advisors, check to see if that prof. (or other asst. profs) are listed as advisors. Overall, though, I would characterize these situations as rare. If there's a POI you're really interested in who is untenured, get as much information as possible, and make sure there are other people you could potentially mention on your application. 

[CrazyCatLady80]

To balance what's been said, I will offer a different kind of example: an asst. prof. at my current institution has three doctoral advisees. She's something of a rising star in her field (has been described as a "rockstar," etc.) and I don't think there's any doubt she'll get tenure. Another student I know applied to work with an untenured faculty member - instead of rejecting her, they worked with her to change her advisor to another, well-suited, tenured faculty member. 

 

In some situations, it does make sense to apply to work with an asst. prof. One way to tell - emailing them. Another way - if the dept. website has a list of graduate students and their advisors, check to see if that prof. (or other asst. profs) are listed as advisors. Overall, though, I would characterize these situations as rare. If there's a POI you're really interested in who is untenured, get as much information as possible, and make sure there are other people you could potentially mention on your application. 

 

Interesting - I have never heard of Assistant Professors working with grad students. Something I will keep in mind. Thanks for the tip. 

[TMP]

You will have to investigate on the policies of assistant professors and graduate students.  This kind of question can be discussed with the grad coordinator or the DGS.  In my program, assistant professors are allowed to supervise graduate students but must have a tenured faculty member co-sign (like a teenager getting a credit card and need a parent's co-signature).

 

Assistant professors are usually just fabulous and dynamic people.  But keep in mind, they do have a tenure clock to keep an eye on.

 

As for retired faculty, check on their publications . You don't want to work with someone who hasn't published in the last 5 years- he/she won't give you updated literature and methodology.  No matter how famous.

[getitlow]

Interesting - I have never heard of Assistant Professors working with grad students. Something I will keep in mind. Thanks for the tip. 

 

In my case, all of the schools I have applied to, plus some I eventually decided not to apply, refused to let me work with assistant professors as primary advisors. I happened to email to some assistant professors ( I was not reading the website carefully) and they all directed me to full professors, stating that "although I cannot serve as your main advisor, I can sit on your committee".

[Wicked_Problem]

QUOTE: "You shouldn't apply to a school where the person you really want to work with is an Assistant Professor. The fact is, you won't get into this situation where you're there for a few years and then your untenured advisor leaves because you are almost certainly not going to be accepted to such a program - untenured professors generally don't take on their own PhD students. They are often committee members or secondary resources for grad students, but grad schools generally don't accept students who want to work primarily with a person who is untenured and in most programs you are not even allowed to list an untenured professor as your primary advisor. When I was applying, I had been working as a research assistant for a professor at a great school whose work I really liked - I talked to her about the application process and she said outright, "You can't apply here, because I'm not tenured." At least at this school, applications to work with untenured profs are not even considered, and my understanding is that this is generally the same in most programs..."

That explains UCI for me.

Edited March 28, 2013 by Wicked_Problem

[playingivory]

Thank you all VERY much for your thoughtful responses! I suppose I'll email the person at Princeton I'm interested in and see if she is able to take on grad students or if she could refer me to someone else and sit on my committee (though as far as I can tell from the website, there's not really many others in the department that are that closely linked to my interests). The POI that I met with at Columbia mentioned that Princeton is tending to tenure their assistants...whether that has any bearing on the situation or not.

 

I'm less concerned about choosing an older POI because I'm hoping that they would continue to be up front with me about retirement (that's really awful, Phdoobie...). Most of folks I'm looking to work with aren't anywhere near retirement- the only one slightly older, but still probably not near retiring, was my guy at Columbia, who was the most dear, lovely person I've ever met, and after he took 2 or 3 hours for our scheduled 1/2 hr meeting and offered to help me edit my SoP, I feel fairly confident that he's not going anywhere. Good advice from TMP though on checking recent publications, I hadn't thought of that.

 

sweetcheese: fellow Wolverine, woohoo! How interesting that you're going into musicology, I actually considered doing that (that and performance studies or dramaturgy... I am an arts person for sure - I teach music and acting - and had been very torn on what to do, but ultimately, I've decided history is my best choice)! I will likely be sending you (and remenis - thanks for all that info!) a PM at some point in the future!
 

Also to clarify my comment about the UK system, I mean that as being exclusive to the UK system. I don't expect at all to get into a school just because someone wants to work with me. The contacts I've made thus far as more out of my being neurotic about wanting to know as much as I can about potential advisers and programs as I can. I simply meant that, at least for her at Oxford, the UK seems to be a bit different and I wondered if anyone else had had that experience over there.

 

Thanks very much again!

[Emdave]

Interesting - I have never heard of Assistant Professors working with grad students. Something I will keep in mind. Thanks for the tip. 

 

While I agree, to a point, that you shouldn't apply to work with Assistant Profs because they're young and untenured, etc, I don't agree that you should *never* do so. In my own (anecdotal, sure) experiences, I know many people who have applied to work with APs, gotten into those schools, and succeeded in those programs with their AP advisers. My boyfriend is on year 3 of his PhD and his adviser is up for tenure next year. The POI I'm hoping to work with at Hopkins has only been there since 2010, but he seems hopeful about my candidacy. I know half a dozen others who got into programs by applying to APs for advisers.

 

Now, I agree that you shouldn't list them as sole advisers, but what worked for me was saying "oh hey, I'd prefer to work with XXXXXX [the AP] and XXXXXX [another AP], but I know my research would also benefit from XXXX's [tenured prof] experience with graduate students in my field as well. One should also beware of applying to a school that only has a single prof in a field of interest. You never know when life will step in, whether it's an older prof or a younger one. If something happens, you'll end up with poor Phdoobiedoobiedoo's situation.

 

I hate to add to the doom and gloom, but a professor whom I almost asked to be my adviser just died last weekend. She was in her early thirties, a rockstar, and most certainly was going to get tenure. You really never know when someone will fall ill, have an accident, or will be pulled away for millions more unforeseen reasons. That's why I would recommend applying to a program that has 3-4 profs who teach, if not your exact sub-sub-sub field, something close to it, e.g. having three profs who all do something in intellectual history or various topics within the 17th century. At least then you can craft independent study classes to fit your sub-sub field without having to consider other institutions.

 

Having at least a small cabal of profs interested in the same sub-field/specific time/theme might also indicate more support for your subject and could open the possibility of special conferences or events. etc (not to mention personal networking) in your field.

[CrazyCatLady80]

Thank you all VERY much for your thoughtful responses! I suppose I'll email the person at Princeton I'm interested in and see if she is able to take on grad students or if she could refer me to someone else and sit on my committee (though as far as I can tell from the website, there's not really many others in the department that are that closely linked to my interests). The POI that I met with at Columbia mentioned that Princeton is tending to tenure their assistants...whether that has any bearing on the situation or not.

 

This brings up another question - when is a good time to contact at POI? I keep hearing mixed things about this topic. One the boards here everyone recommends early October. However, various people I talked to say that I should do it right now. Any thoughts? 

[Emdave]

This brings up another question - when is a good time to contact at POI? I keep hearing mixed things about this topic. One the boards here everyone recommends early October. However, various people I talked to say that I should do it right now. Any thoughts? 

 

I would recommend starting even earlier than October. I wouldn't try the summer (or earlier-- like now), because it's still a little too soon in my opinion. I know a bunch of profs who have mentioned being annoyed by people pestering them about Nov-Dec business in June.

 

However, I would very highly recommend emailing profs even as early as August. That way, you can start testing the waters well before you need to start working on your applications. Ideally, you would already know exactly which schools you'll want to apply to (and which are viable options, re: what we've discussed above) by the time applications become available in September. That way, you'll be confident in your possibilities at the schools you choose AND (very important!) you'll have established relationships with profs by the time they start reading your applications in Dec/Jan.

[GuitarSlayer]

When I was contacting my POIs, I started in June/July.  They've had a bit of time to unwind from the semester but they aren't on the beach yet.  I applied to Oxford and got in, and they chose my POI for me -- I had no choice form or anything to work with.  In contrast, I applied to York after contacting a person there and we seemed to synch up, and he was the one to give me the happy tidings.

 

I had a similar situation where I was considering asking someone if I could study under her, but I realized she was waaay too young/untenured for it.  So what I did was that I went to HER POI and supervisor from her PhD -- if he/she was supportive of this person's work, there is a good chance that he/she will like you too if you are in a similar vein.  Worked out pretty well!!

[playingivory]

This brings up another question - when is a good time to contact at POI? I keep hearing mixed things about this topic. One the boards here everyone recommends early October. However, various people I talked to say that I should do it right now. Any thoughts? 

 

Well, I was apparently way early (my first visit was January), and everyone was quite receptive to me. I didn't take a "timeline" into consideration mostly because 1) I didn't know there was an appropriate time and 2) I wanted to meet with people in person, and with my insane schedule (school full time, work a regular job, teach music and acting, coach theatre kids to get into college and usually am directing a play), I went when the chance presented itself. So my answer for you is- contact people when you feel you're ready to begin a dialogue. If you don't hear anything back, try them again at the end of summer or just into the fall term.

 

As another thought, I did have several POIs ask me why I was starting so early, and I told them I tend to be an over-planner, so I wanted to have all my "ducks in a row," if you will. The response every single time to that was: you're lucky you're so ahead of the game, most people scramble at the last minute. How true that is, I don't know, and I certainly don't attribute that statement with waiting to contact POIs until October, but I figure it was worth noting.

[New England Nat]

In my department you can't have an assistnat professor as a primary adviser, in particular because tenure here is a very dicey thing.  It's alight to ask where they are on the tenure clock, and to say you want to work with them as long as you also want to work with someone who has tenure.  But for the record, of the five people who are either on my generals committee or my dissertation committee only one of them is an assistant prof.

 

As for retirements, professors planning on retiring wont take new students for a few years before that retirement.  This is part of the reason you should email professors because you will get a few "I'm not taking new students" replies.

[CrazyCatLady80]

Thanks for the suggestions - I think I am going to finish the paper that will be my writing sample before I contact them. I pretty much know what is going to be in SOP, but it will be stronger when I get that draft finished.

[CageFree]

You shouldn't apply to a school where the person you really want to work with is an Assistant Professor. 

 

I think one needs to qualify this statement. While you may want to know if there are others to work with in case your POI leaves (and hopefully mention this in your application), it's also useful to find out exactly where that person is on the ladder. My adviser, for example, has two other students, both of whom are a year ahead of me, and JUST got tenured. They were just waiting for this person's book to be done, and now that it is, it's official. That's why my adviser has been able to take students in the last two cohorts. However, there are now four people in my field working in the department.. and that's a key factor in deciding to work with someone who isn't tenured yet. 

 

Also, just because someone is well-established doesn't mean they might not leave. A good friend of mine just found out her adviser, who is well established and fully tenured, got an offer elsewhere and is leaving pretty much after she finishes her qualifying exams. That program even admitted students to work with that prof for next fall. One of my letter writers left my old UG program for Europe half-way through the year (I believe it was last year), and was also tenured and had been there since the mid 1990's. I doubt this person took any of their students along to Europe.