''Second-Tier'' Program Prospects

[TylerD7]

Hi,

 

What are your thoughts on eventual job prospects for a Ph.D. student in a so-called ''second-tier'' program? Obviously one can't expect to be hired at Harvard with a Ph.D. from Tulane, but what are the odds of, for instance, getting hired at American U with a degree from the University of Houston? In other words, could one expect to have a chance to be hired at a comparable, respectable ''second-tier'' university, or is he / she condemned to a job in a tiny and obscure university or college? And how do you think the quality of the job market (which is so bad now it almost *has* to improve) over the next few years is likely to have an impact?

 

Any input / feedback would be appreciated.

 

Thanks!

 

 

[ThisGuyRiteHere]

One notch down is what I told. If you went to UHouston, you can expect to teach at south texas college (small colleges), teaching unis or go into the public/private sector. If you are ok with that, than go.

I know this because I grilled Houston after I got accepted on their placement. Alot in public policy (some dc, most texas), small colleges, etc.

[polisci12345]

Remember that every school produces more graduates than it has job openings and this is going to cascade down. The top 25 cannot possibly absorb all the top 25 graduates so the graduates take the best job they can get. This makes things much tighter for a graduate of a top 75 type school like Houston or American who are hoping to work in a similar place.

[PoliSwede]

If you have a great record in graduate school (a couple/few published papers etc.) then a best case scenario might be to make a lateral move to a school of similar prestige. More common is that you usually, as TheMarketMan said, that you get a job one notch down. Now, keep in mind that it doesn't mean that your career ends or that you're stuck at a lower tiered school forever. A former advisor (now friend) of mine graduated from one of the smaller PhD programs in Illinois and now holds an endowed chair at a low R1.

 

I would advice against going into academia with the mindset that the job market has to improve. There are no guarantees that it will!

[BrunoPuntzJones]

I agree with the general comments that are already posted on this, but I'd add that it's going to vary a great deal based on subfield/adviser.  It's worth digging through the aggregate placement numbers and looking at how students working in your specific area have done recently. 

Edited May 30, 2013 by BrunoPuntzJones

[PoliSwede]

I agree with the general comments that are already posted on this, but I'd add that it's going to vary a great deal based on subfield/adviser.  

This is very true. When you're looking at programs/schools and people that you're interested in working with, try to figure out where their students end up after they get their PhD. There are some "star" professors at lower tiered schools that are really good at placing the students that they mentor.

[TylerD7]

Thanks all for the feedback.

 

Let me throw in an additional curve: do you think it would be worth it to transfer from a top-75 school (e.g. Houston) to a top-40 school (e.g. Johns Hopkins) after having completed 2 years of coursework (and potentially having attained ABD status)? For the sake of the argument, let's say the person would then have to take half the coursework at Johns Hopkins (the other half being credited), take the comps, defend the prospectus again. 

 

Thoughts?

[eponine997]

Let me throw in an additional curve: do you think it would be worth it to transfer from a top-75 school (e.g. Houston) to a top-40 school (e.g. Johns Hopkins) after having completed 2 years of coursework (and potentially having attained ABD status)? For the sake of the argument, let's say the person would then have to take half the coursework at Johns Hopkins (the other half being credited), take the comps, defend the prospectus again. 

 

Thoughts?

Yes.  Assuming your life/family/financial situation allows you to do so.  To be warned, depending on where you transfer, you may have to complete ALL the coursework/comps/etc again (hence my comment about what your life situation allows, might be a great idea if you are 24, but perhaps not so great at 34 - and part of that will come down to personal preference).  That said, it would be impressive to defend your proposal by the end of your second year, and personally, I don't think I would if transferring was a strong possibility.  

There are good schools that don't necessarily place well (relative to their own ranking. this has to do with a number of factors, faculty support being one of them) and there are middle-ranked schools that have managed to place at peer institutions.  See http://www.princeton.edu/~bschmidt/Papers/Schmidt-Chingos%20Rankings%20Paper.pdf

for more details on placement-based rankings.

Considering outcome is very smart approach.  Keep in mind that schools, even middle-tier schools, in urban areas are highly sought after (usually due to lifestyle/spousal considerations).  For example, Indiana is well-ranked, but if I have a working spouse, I might prefer a job (note: I said job, not grad program) at UofIllinois-Chicago (much lower ranked) due to its location.  Look at the schools where you'd like to apply, how have their candidates placed (post-2008).  Look at schools where you think you could be happy working, where did the current faculty get their PhDs (were many of them teaching somewhere else prior?).  

[catchermiscount]

Unless you're "planning" on an advisor leaving or something like that, "planning" on transferring isn't the best idea.  It's a truly un-fun process even if you have a good explanation as to why you want (really, need) to transfer. 

 

It's also inefficient.  The reason that you transfer from school X to school Y is to be more like somebody that went to school Y than school X.  Which is to say:  you'll probably want to take as many classes as you can to get the value-add of school Y.  You're starting a fresh start of relationships---not only with faculty, but also with grad students, who teach you as much as faculty do.  If a given department has a "brand," then it takes time to be the sort of person that represents the brand.

 

I absolutely would transfer again, and I'd pick the place I transferred to.  I also would take the whole courseload again (which I did).  But that doesn't mean it's been all smiles, and if the situation at my former home hadn't been so dire, I might not be so pleased with my decision.

[TylerD7]

Eponine977 - thanks for the feedback, which makes complete sense. The decision may indeed have to come to personal/relationship matters.

 

Coachrjc - how is the process ''un-fun''? In your personal experience, did it cause much friction with faculty at the school you were transferring from? The faculty at the school I am at is great - placement really is my only concern (although it's a pretty significant one). And what made the situation at your first school dire? Was it placement as well?

[TylerD7]

If you have a great record in graduate school (a couple/few published papers etc.) then a best case scenario might be to make a lateral move to a school of similar prestige. More common is that you usually, as TheMarketMan said, that you get a job one notch down. Now, keep in mind that it doesn't mean that your career ends or that you're stuck at a lower tiered school forever. A former advisor (now friend) of mine graduated from one of the smaller PhD programs in Illinois and now holds an endowed chair at a low R1.

 

I would advice against going into academia with the mindset that the job market has to improve. There are no guarantees that it will!

Would you then say that the odds are realistically good for someone to start his/her career teaching at a small liberal-arts college and transfer to a research university a few years in?

[catchermiscount]

Eponine977 - thanks for the feedback, which makes complete sense. The decision may indeed have to come to personal/relationship matters.

 

Coachrjc - how is the process ''un-fun''? In your personal experience, did it cause much friction with faculty at the school you were transferring from? The faculty at the school I am at is great - placement really is my only concern (although it's a pretty significant one). And what made the situation at your first school dire? Was it placement as well?

 

It was (temporarily) dire because the only IR/conflict person on the faculty left for elsewhere.  So, nobody to work with at all, unless I wanted to become an Americanist.  As you might imagine, people were very understanding of my decision to leave...at least the faculty.  I lost a few friends, and had to rebuild some other relationships.  Then comes applying.  You say to yourself "self, if I try to apply to transfer and don't get in anywhere, then I am going to be coming back here with my tail between by legs."  And that's not fun.  So, you don't just apply to places "above" where you were.  You apply to peer institutions or better-fitting schools that might be ranked a bit lower.

 

And then after all that, you get to be a first year again.  And the whole "break them down so you can build them up" thing built into a first year---the thing that you're only supposed to go through once so that you come through humble but confident---is way worse the second time.

 

So, yeah.  I love where I am, and it's a much better professional fit for me, but I deeply regretting hurting friends and burning a few bridges with faculty, and the process itself was much more stressful than it was the first time around even though I was much better prepared for it.  And my experience was one of the smoother ones---I've heard my share of horror stories of people asking for letters of recommendation to transfer only to hear "why do you want to transfer when you can work with me?" in some (angry) incarnation.

[Zahar Berkut]

It was (temporarily) dire because the only IR/conflict person on the faculty left for elsewhere.  So, nobody to work with at all, unless I wanted to become an Americanist.  As you might imagine, people were very understanding of my decision to leave...at least the faculty.  I lost a few friends, and had to rebuild some other relationships.  Then comes applying.  You say to yourself "self, if I try to apply to transfer and don't get in anywhere, then I am going to be coming back here with my tail between by legs."  And that's not fun.  So, you don't just apply to places "above" where you were.  You apply to peer institutions or better-fitting schools that might be ranked a bit lower.

 

And then after all that, you get to be a first year again.  And the whole "break them down so you can build them up" thing built into a first year---the thing that you're only supposed to go through once so that you come through humble but confident---is way worse the second time.

 

So, yeah.  I love where I am, and it's a much better professional fit for me, but I deeply regretting hurting friends and burning a few bridges with faculty, and the process itself was much more stressful than it was the first time around even though I was much better prepared for it.  And my experience was one of the smoother ones---I've heard my share of horror stories of people asking for letters of recommendation to transfer only to hear "why do you want to transfer when you can work with me?" in some (angry) incarnation.

 

I'm really surprised that not everyone was supportive of your decision. Losing the only faculty doing your area of work sounds like as valid a reason as you could ask for. Also, thank you for sharing your experience.

[TylerD7]

I agree with Zahar Berkut. Your reason for transferring almost seems like a no-brainer - it's hard to comprehend faculty not understanding this. Then again, that's what kind of worries me - if your faculty had a hard time accepting you transferring for that reason, I can't imagine they'd react very positively to someone transferring because he/she's afraid of placement... 

 

Was your coursework not easier at your ''new'' school? I imagine a lot of the material you covered you had already seen, no?

[catchermiscount]

It was (much) harder.  I pretty much thought I was hot feces---I had gotten all As in my methods classes at my first place and got 3 A-plusses at ICPSR in one semester and I pretty much thought taking another year of methods would be superfluous.  The DGS at my new places was like "oh, well, how's about you just give it a try and we'll see about it later."  Second class of the methods class, the prof walks in and is like "so what do you jokers know about sigma algebras?"  I didn't ask about skipping classes any more after that.

 

Note also that it wasn't just narrow-mindedness on my old department's place.  They weren't being narrow-minded at all.  When I emailed professors at other places prior to applying, many faculty said "look, you have a good reason here, but I don't want to be 'poaching' graduate students."

 

Again, none of this is to say that you ought not transfer if it's what's best.  I just think it's something only to be considered if necessary, though I am loyal to a fault.

[TylerD7]

Thanks for sharing your story. 

 

Do you think that your in case changing departments has improved / will improve your odds once on the job market? You say you made a lateral move... so I would assume the transfer would have a limited impact in that regard, no?

 

What's kind of freaking me out is seeing that even small schools without a PhD program like the University of Richmond or Villanova have faculty from the likes of Berkeley and Harvard...

[polisci12345]

Professors at top 75 schools have, by and large, received quality training and have a reasonable amount of pride in their work and ability to teach. Without talking to any faculty in such programs, I can guarantee that they do not consider themselves to be a stepping stone to top 50 programs and aren't admitting people with the plan that they will train them up for a year and then ship them up the line to higher ranked programs. There is a very real possibility that you are going to leave a trail of raw feelings in your wake if you transfer because you are worried about placement.  In my top 10, the only people I know who transfered in are people who came as part of a package with professors we hired from other departments. We aren't going out trying to fill our incoming classes with people who started somewhere else and wanted to trade up. On the one hand, most people don't try to transfer after a year or two. On the other hand, most people who have finished a year in a top 50 or 75 program have a lot more of a clue about what they are doing than someone with no experience in a PhD program. I have no clue what the probability of acceptance is conditional on being a transfer relative to being not a transfer at most schools but this is something you should probably look into.

 

As coach has said, this is a really personal decision and you are the only person who can say whats right for you, but I'm with him in the warning that its not an easy, risk-free process so you should go in with your eyes open.

[PoliSwede]

Would you then say that the odds are realistically good for someone to start his/her career teaching at a small liberal-arts college and transfer to a research university a few years in?

With small LACs you need to keep in mind that the teaching load can be overwhelming. Teaching a 4-4 load, especially if they are courses that you've never taught before, will suck away a lot of your time from doing research. And when you're applying to research universities you will need to display a good research record. 

 

Now, it's not impossible that you would be able to get a job at a smaller/less prestigious research university and then work your way up. Say that you graduate from a program ranked 50ish and you manage to get a placement at a regional university with a 2-2 (or less!) load. You'll have plenty of time to get your own research done and then get a job at a larger university.

 

I can't say that the odds are "good", but they are definitely not non-existent as long as you're willing to put in the hard work that is necessary.

 

 

Regarding transfer:

 

It is not uncommon. I know a guy who got into a PhD program that is ranked somewhere between 35-50. After staying in the program for a year his advisor flat out told him that if he wanted to have a shot at a fairly decent job when he's done with the PhD he will have to transfer. Apparently their placement record wasn't very strong and his advisor thought that he could do better. He moved to a program ranked 20ish with a better placement record and he doesn't regret making the move one bit.

[catchermiscount]

Thanks for sharing your story. 

 

Do you think that your in case changing departments has improved / will improve your odds once on the job market? You say you made a lateral move... so I would assume the transfer would have a limited impact in that regard, no?

 

What's kind of freaking me out is seeing that even small schools without a PhD program like the University of Richmond or Villanova have faculty from the likes of Berkeley and Harvard...

 

I should clarify.  My transfer was generally an upgrade, though there are areas of expertise where my first department is stronger than my second department.  I transferred to a very small department known for a strong placement record, though the past few years have been rough (on everybody).  At face value, my job prospects have probably improved (though with my own intellectual limitations, the difference between one and the other is probably nil).  But most importantly, I do feel like I'm a much better political scientist than I would have been if I stayed.

 

So too would my job prospects improved (under the same disclaimer) had I made a lateral move to a place with a better substantive fit.  Think of it this way.  I was transferring from a top 30-ish department with little presence at the time in IR/conflict, and I was interested in methods and (formal) theory.  Had I made the something-close-to-lateral move to a top 30ish department with strengths in that kind of work (say, Rice), my job prospects would have improved if only because I would have gotten more training in what I wanted to study.

 

It is easy to oversimplify things and say "all Berkeley people must be somewhat homogenous and all Harvard people must be somewhat homogenous and...."  And obviously the school you go to matters on the job market, because overworked search committees need to use SOMETHING to simplify their complicated task.  But you're still YOU.  You want to be the best version of you.  Transferring to Caltech or Rochester or some other program that did (surprisingly) well on that placement ranking isn't going to help your shot at a job very much if you're not interested in formal theory.  One reason that those schools place well is that they train folks well in formal theory---so, if you're not going to be taking advantage of the value-add, why bother?  There are times that you go to a job talk and ask yourself after:  "how the hell did that person get into such a prestigious, competitive graduate program?"  And it's because, for all the prestige of the university that adorns their PhD, they're still just themselves---a different, post-training version of themselves, but themselves nonetheless.

 

All this should be taken for what it's worth.  I've never landed a job (though I haven't tried just yet). 

Edited May 31, 2013 by coachrjc

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Let me throw in an additional curve: do you think it would be worth it to transfer from a top-75 school (e.g. Houston) to a top-40 school (e.g. Johns Hopkins) after having completed 2 years of coursework (and potentially having attained ABD status)? For the sake of the argument, let's say the person would then have to take half the coursework at Johns Hopkins (the other half being credited), take the comps, defend the prospectus again. 

 

Coach's story on this provides a pretty good assessment.  Transferring decisions should depend on who you're working with/what you're studying.  Hopkins, for example, is a program that has a strong reputation in a very specific area.  If your work isn't in that wheelhouse, you don't gain anything from transferring.