Need help with Div Schools

[diaduit90]

Hi guys! I'm currently in the process of discerning grad schools and I'd like to check out Div schools/Seminaries. The problem is my undergraduate experience was riddled with personal problems ranging from a suicide in the family (in my own house none the less) to taking care of my mom as she went through chemo. This left me graduating with a 2.85 (major/core GPA should be a little higher) in Religious Studies from California State University Northridge. I have a great letter of rec from the department chair of my program, and the Intervarsity Christian Fellowship Area Director of the Greater Los Angeles Area (not to mention the regional director potentially). Are there any suggestions as to schools I can apply to that might accept me or any tips on applying with a low GPA? My goal is to pursue a degree pertaining to Christianity and if possible specifically New Testament (although I'm flexible as I've also considered a Masters in Theology). Thanks so much for the help/insight.

[sacklunch]

You should be able to include some of your background (for masters) in your SOP. This should help your chances, I think. I would apply to more MDiv programs, if possible, since they generally have lighter admission requirements. 

[Yetanotherdegree]

I second what JDM said about applying for an MDiv. Do you have specific theological or denominational interests/requirements that might help us to direct you to programs that would fit?

[diaduit90]

The church I attend currently is Non-Denominational so I'm pretty flexible as far as denominational ties. I'm rather interested in the New Perspective on Paul but mostly I love New Testament studies in general. I'm willing to apply out of state (currently in California) if necessary. I suppose the only type of school I'd like to avoid is a school with a very monolithic faculty (for example Masters Seminary is some what known in my area for being conservative Reformed and nothing else). I appriacate the breadth of opinions and ideas at Fuller for example, although I'm not sure I could get in with my grades. Perhaps because of this a Div school would fit more my style, although I know very little about them.

[Yetanotherdegree]

You may already know this, but just in case you don't: a divinity school is part of a larger university, while a seminary is not. So, for example, Duke Divinity School, Yale DIv School, Harvard Div School etc, are all schools of the respective universities. Seminaries can have relationships with larger institutions (Princeton, for example) but are much more independent/separate. Because of this, I think divinity schools can sometimes be a bit harder to get into, although they often have access to better resources and more faculty.

It sounds like a div school with a range of faculty, schools of thought etc would be a better fit for you, but perhaps more of a challenge re admission. However I don't think it would be impossible, especially if you are open with them about your challenges during your undergrad.

What are your long-range goals? If they include doctoral studies, you may wish to consider a very well-known, mainstream divinity school instead of a small seminary, as a degree from that sort of place is more likely to set you up for doctoral work. Maybe somewhere like Vanderbilt Divinty School?

[diaduit90]

I do plan on continuing to doctoral work. Would a school like Vanderbilt even consider me? And if so, is there anything I can do to increase my likelyhood of being accepted? (For example would the optional interview be good for me in this situation?)

[sacklunch]

I do plan on continuing to doctoral work. Would a school like Vanderbilt even consider me? And if so, is there anything I can do to increase my likelyhood of being accepted? (For example would the optional interview be good for me in this situation?)

 

Spend a lot of time with your SOP and I bet you would get into some of the larger Div schools (MDiv - Emory, Yale, Duke, Vandy). Hell, I remember a couple years ago there was a guy on here who had a 2.5 or something and got into Harvard's MDiv due to a similar situation you were/are in. Honestly the acceptance rate for most of these schools is pretty high for MDiv's (contrary to many other masters), even at Harvard (isn't it like 50% acceptance for MDiv?). Make the case you will be a good fit for the program, perhaps even visit the school, and lay that all out in your SOP and I would wager that you will have pretty good luck. 

[xypathos]

Harvard use to put their acceptance rate on their website, pre-financial crisis it was 50-60%. After 2008, I recall it dropping down to the 40's.

 

Duke, GPA wise, I believe their cutoff for a minimum is 2.75. Most others suggest a B average, I believe. Obviously if you're applying for an MDiv, SOP and LORs are going to be huge and you'll have opportunity to explain GPA and general life happenings.

 

For divinity schools - Emory, Duke, Yale, and Vanderbilt are solid schools. Princeton Theo. is obviously a seminary but I'd include it with the divinity school list. It's very highly regarded across denominations and the theological spectrum. Princeton still publishes their acceptance rate on their website, and it's 55%.

 

Harvard ultimately depends on if you'll feel comfortable in that environment. If you're theologically and/or socially conservative, I doubt you'll feel comfortable there. My Bishop was a Resident Fellow there two years ago and said most moderates wouldn't feel comfortable in the environment at HDS, nor would he suggest an applicant attend for their MDiv training. Ultimately, that while they excel at lay ministry and academics - ordained ministry they're still struggling with. The Bishop in question is a high church Episcopalian and did his PhD at Notre Dame, if worth anything.

Edited August 5, 2013 by xypathos

[AbrasaxEos]

One question that I would ask here is whether your undergraduate record is uniformly up and down, or whether you have a kind of upward swing to it (i.e. did you have a rough freshman-sophomore year, with a bit of a pickup as you progressed)?  If this is the case, your transcript might help you out with a bit of explanation - I had a friend who really screwed off his first two years and as a result, had a low overall gpa.  However, he picked things up in his junior and senior years and had a really good record to show for it.  He was able to get into Yale and Princeton with what I think was a pretty similar gpa.  If you have an up and down record where there isn't a demonstrable improvement, this is not to say that you don't have a chance, but it may take some more explaining as others have noted.

[dr. t]

Harvard ultimately depends on if you'll feel comfortable in that environment. If you're theologically and/or socially conservative, I doubt you'll feel comfortable there. My Bishop was a Resident Fellow there two years ago and said most moderates wouldn't feel comfortable in the environment at HDS, nor would he suggest an applicant attend for their MDiv training. Ultimately, that while they excel at lay ministry and academics - ordained ministry they're still struggling with. The Bishop in question is a high church Episcopalian and did his PhD at Notre Dame, if worth anything.

 

Theologically conservative, I don't know. I think you'd get a lot of good arguments. Socially conservative, yeah, not the place for you. I don't think you'd get a huge amount of pushback, you just would alienate a large percentage of your peers.

Edited August 5, 2013 by telkanuru

[diaduit90]

Thanks everyone for the feedback! Are there any resources for SOP's I can look at? Or any other suggestions as far as persuading the admissions for these schools? As for my GPA unfortunately I'm not sure there's a trend like what abrasaxEos is suggesting. Actually I feel like I was just constantly slammed, for example I had a really rocky  Soph. year and I decided to really commit Junior year, but two weeks into the first semester the suicide happened. I spoke with my adviser and asked if I could take time off (authorized withdrawal) , but because of budget cuts to our program he said I wouldn't be able to get back in when I was ready to return. So I just soldiered through.

[MsBOOM]

HDS loves a good sob and phoenix in the ashes story - go for it! Explain things in SOP about what happened, how it changed you spiritually and how it's motivating you to do studies in religion because of it (you get the jist). Your previous adviser should be a good person to talk to about how to write a SOP.

 

 

I'm a huge banner waver for HDS, but that's because I go here. Unless, of course, you are conservative socially (as others have noted) - you might be better off in a conservative seminary/div school if you are. Our acceptance rate for MDivs is in the 40's - the MTS is a little lower than that, I believe (definitely went down for the 2013 year).

[Yetanotherdegree]

I know this may sound like an impossible task, but if you are thinking about a PhD, then you might want to consider which school and academics you would like to work with in the future. Once you have some ideas about where you would like to be in 4-5 years, it may be easier to see where you might want to go for an MDiv or similar.

[Yetanotherdegree]

Thanks everyone for the feedback! Are there any resources for SOP's I can look at? Or any other suggestions as far as persuading the admissions for these schools? As for my GPA unfortunately I'm not sure there's a trend like what abrasaxEos is suggesting. Actually I feel like I was just constantly slammed, for example I had a really rocky  Soph. year and I decided to really commit Junior year, but two weeks into the first semester the suicide happened. I spoke with my adviser and asked if I could take time off (authorized withdrawal) , but because of budget cuts to our program he said I wouldn't be able to get back in when I was ready to return. So I just soldiered through.

If you have a consistent pattern of challenges and lower grades, you may find that you need to take a year or two off after undergrad and before applying to to masters programs. This would allow you to demonstrate growth, maturity, and focus, and may be more appealing to admissions committees than saying that you had ongoing challenges that never allowed you to fully actualize your potential, even if those challenges were especially difficult/compelling. I'm not saying this is the case with you at all, but that pattern can be interpreted by admissions committees and others as a sign of an inability to focus on school or a potentially problematic refusal to take responsibility for academic performance, neither of which are positives for graduate admissions.

If there is any possibility that an admissions committee might interpret your past performance this way, then you will want to make sure you address these concerns with actions and not just words.

I don't think your GPA is so low that you don't have a chance anywhere, but I don't think it's a guaranteed admission either. But more importantly, if you have plans to do doctoral work, then your MDiv grades have to be outstanding, not just because the doctoral program admissions are extremely competitive, but because you need to overcome your less than stellar undergrad GPA. Would a year or two out of school help you to do this?

[dr. t]

I'm a huge banner waver for HDS, but that's because I go here. Unless, of course, you are conservative socially (as others have noted) - you might be better off in a conservative seminary/div school if you are. Our acceptance rate for MDivs is in the 40's - the MTS is a little lower than that, I believe (definitely went down for the 2013 year).

 

Just to nitpick, this thread  it as 27% form MTS/MDiv. I assuming the latter brings that average up, but for 40 to be right, the MTS rate would have to be pretty low indeed.

[Yetanotherdegree]

Just to nitpick, this thread  it as 27% form MTS/MDiv. I assuming the latter brings that average up, but for 40 to be right, the MTS rate would have to be pretty low indeed.

I would assume that the stats are for all degree programs offered by HDS, and that the ThD stats are what pull the numbers down.

[dr. t]

I would assume that the stats are for all degree programs offered by HDS, and that the ThD stats are what pull the numbers down.

If you notice, ThD is a separate item on the list at 9.5%

[Yetanotherdegree]

If you notice, ThD is a separate item on the list at 9.5%

Hmm, didnt read that far. In that case, I got nothing. In my experience, the non-MDiv programs tend to run at about 30-33% (which, of course, is a huge generalization)...

[diaduit90]

If I were to take a few years off, what should I be doing in the mean time? Is there anything that would bolster my chances of admission later? 

[xypathos]

At the end of the day, I don't think there's anything that'll bolster your application. Now, with that said, and acknowledging that what I said sounds very negative - I think you're fine to go ahead and apply. If you took more classes, even say two years worth of straight A's - you may be able to slip past a 3.0 but maybe not. If you did more volunteer/ministry work, it still won't alleviate you or the Adcoms of your GPA concerns.

 

You have a unique life story and it more than explains why school may not have been your top priority. Other than $$$, what's there to lose? Cast your net wide enough and you'll be fine.

 

Back in my LAC days, a representative from Harvard Divinity came to the school. A student asked how strongly life experience factors in on their discussion when reviewing an applicant, the rep told us that it's up there with our SOP and LOR (that obviously your life story is told through these documents). That they/some (Adcoms) feel that those who've 'suffered' in life to some extent, more than usual, put more into their ministry training, thus taking more out. She told us of an example when a divinity applicant, had been accepted to the school but they were discussing some kind of aid for the student, one of the reviewers commented that the applicant had led an 'ideal' life - good grades, both parents and grandparents were alive, that she'd never really been 'tested in life,' the applicant even stated in her SOP that she'd never had anything traumatic happen to her. Ultimately the aid went to another applicant. She tied in the story better than I am here, keep in mind that I'm recalling it from nearly a decade ago. My Chaplain, an eternal jester, quipped during the discussion (out loud), "The rep from Drew told us the same story last year." Over the years I've noticed that Divinity school reps. tell eerily similar stories.

 

TL;DR - I better see a signature of schools that you're applying to in the Fall.

[wpaine]

If I were to take a few years off, what should I be doing in the mean time? Is there anything that would bolster my chances of admission later? 

I received my MTS from HDS in 2009.  Personally, I don't think taking a few years off would make a huge difference for you.  The thing you need to tease out is what exactly you want your experience to be like and what do you hope to do with it (this should also be the guideposts for your SOP, by the way).. One of the more compelling reasons to attend HDS, for me, was the flexibility to take courses at other schools (the kennedy school of gov't, for instance).  I found HDS to be a great place for those who weren't quite sure what they wanted to do with an MTS degree, but also accommodating to those who had a more specific focus (in most cases, those folks would split time between HDS courses and courses offered within the larger university)... If you are interested in pursuing your PhD, I would recommend the MTS.  It doesn't really make sense to spend one extra year getting your MDiv when your goal is to get a PhD - an MTS can get you there the same as an MDiv, and in some instances might actually be more helpful... One downside to HDS at the present moment is that it appears to be going through a bit of an identity crisis.  Dean Hempton just recently took over, and seems to be doing a good job, but I couldn't help but feel that HDS was in a bit of a transition mode during my time there.

[Yetanotherdegree]

If I were to take a few years off, what should I be doing in the mean time? Is there anything that would bolster my chances of admission later?

If you do decide to take a year or so, try to find a relevant job, work on application materials, and just generally do something that shows commitment and maturity. I don't know if you do need this, but if you were to apply for 2014 and not get in, then you could use the time between things to help "spin" your story so that you'll be a stronger applicant the following year.

It won't hurt to try, but it's also good to have a backup plan and you know where your weaknesses are.

[MsBOOM]

Just to nitpick, this thread  it as 27% form MTS/MDiv. I assuming the latter brings that average up, but for 40 to be right, the MTS rate would have to be pretty low indeed.

 

That forum is also from 2009. I was told for the 2012 and 2013 years, the acceptance rate for MDivs fell in the 40's. This was coming from students who were on the admissions committee.

 

MTS I have no clue about, even though I'm an MTSer myself.

[dr. t]

That forum is also from 2009. I was told for the 2012 and 2013 years, the acceptance rate for MDivs fell in the 40's. This was coming from students who were on the admissions committee.

 

MTS I have no clue about, even though I'm an MTSer myself.

 

Fair. Poking around the internet I found this, too http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/graduate-school/645940-harvard-divinity-school.html

 

See you in 3 weeks :-)

Edited August 12, 2013 by telkanuru

[MsBOOM]

Fair. Poking around the internet I found this, too http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/graduate-school/645940-harvard-divinity-school.html

 

See you in 3 weeks :-)

 

I wish they would actually release real stats!!!

 

And yes, see you soon