Discrimination against MA students?

[whirledpeas13]

I have just begun my first year coursework (at an Ivy League School), and I can't help but feel that the professors here focus more on undergraduate and PhD students. As an MA student, Professors have been so blunt to preclude me from taking their course (which are open to "diverse backgrounds and levels"). I've even been cut short and ignored. I'm getting really frustrated. Is this typical?

[PsychGirl1]

Just work twice as hard to prove yourself. And stand your ground. If they won't let you take classes, go to your admin or program director. This is your education- that you may be paying for out of pocket- and you should fight for the best opportunities for you.

[St Andrews Lynx]

Part of the issue might just be rude professors in general (as in, they're rude to MAs, PhDs and undergrads in equal quantities). There is a lot of bluntness and poor social skills in academia - it probably isn't a personal thing against you or MA students. 

 

Talk to the Director of Graduate Studies to clarify the course issues. Again, on the subject of rude professors, there might be valid reasons why they're discouraging you from taking a course (if it's not directly relevant to your field, or there are other compulsory courses you should be taking) and they're just not being tactful about it.

[whirledpeas13]

I didn't go into detail before, so here's the backstory -- In 2 separate classes of mine (both of which are open to undergraduates and graduate students) senior professors have treated me with little to no respect. I find it rude and condescending, to say the least. One professor, during discussion, literally ignored my question during the q & a portion of class. The class is set up such that the four professors who teach the course spend the last 30 min of class sitting on a q & a panel, but when I posed my question, the senior professor took the mike, gave a very brief vignette that did not address my question, and then said, "okay, next question," without allowing the other professors to give their responses. This same professor, when I introduced myself 3 weeks ago after class, all but pushed me aside when he heard I was an MA student. While he spent time talking with students directly in front of me he very curtly said, "Come to my office hours." I went to his office hours (scheduled directly after class, btw), and he again spent his time talking with undergraduate students and disregarded my questions. In my other course (sociology), the professor encouraged students from diverse backgrounds an at varying levels to take her course, which I hoped would help provide a framework for my thesis, but she also treated me poorly from the beginning. I scheduled an appt. with her the first week of class, but she arrived 30 min late and only gave me 5 minutes of her time. I wanted to know if the course would align with my research goals and at my level, but she didn't even give me a chance to speak with her. I tried approaching her after class to ask a question about the course content this past week, and she told me to "make an appt." but also indicated that I should consider dropping the course. I was shocked at how condescending she was. She hasn't taken the time to hear my background at all, but simply makes baseless assumptions -- and her course is about inequality! I have never had problems with professors before. The way this prestigious professors are treating me is nothing short of infuriating. The sociology professor indicated very plainly that she had "other students" and didn't want to waste her time with me (ever). I really don't know why I am rubbing people the wrong way, or if it has nothing to do with me at all.

[fuzzylogician]

Maybe I'm missing something. Your first post sounds as if there is an established pattern of discrimination against you and others in your degree program. Then you describe two incidents, both not pleasant, but neither amounting to discrimination. I'm not sure what you were asking and why you (think you) were ignored, but it happens that professors run out of time because there are too many people at office hours, and it also unfortunately happens that they are late or forget a meeting with you. Some people are also just plain rude or lack in social skills, but that all says nothing about you personally. If you are being treated curtly, my guess would be that it has something to do with the sense of outrage that can be read in your posts, and which I wouldn't be surprised if also comes across in your tone of voice when you ask questions. I could be completely wrong, of course, I don't know you and posts are easily misread -- but so are tones of voice and innocent questions. I'd encourage you to assume neutrality of everyone in your program, unless there is reason to assume otherwise. Once that's done, as an uninvolved observer, all we're left with here are a couple of incidents that seem to have been blown out of proportion. 

[PsychGirl1]

^ What fuzzylogician said. That was my exact reaction.

[Duna]

Coming from a very different education system to the US and especially to my private west coast school here, I have to say that many students appear to be extremely entitled here and easily hurt when professors don't take the time to speak with them. Where I'm from, that's normal. You're a student, not a customer. While I do not fully support this hierarchy, it does make sense to some degree (but I don't think this is part of the discussion here).

 

Ha, fuzzylogician just posted while I was writing and I have to agree. Judging on your anecdotal evidence it might be the case that you a) were already angry and annoyed and/or b ) and I am very sorry that this will sound harsh now: Maybe you didn't ask a very good question and so the professor did not take much time to answer it. And why would he if it meant to waste the time of 4 professors and a whole bunch of students. 

 

I am not saying that you are the cause here but in your description of the problem, maybe asking yourself whether this could be the case and first starting from there (improving questions, communication with professors, really going the official way: making appointments, going to office hours etc.) might be an option? And then, if nothing changes, you can still go and complain (although I'm not sure if that will do you much good).

Edited September 21, 2013 by Duna

[St Andrews Lynx]

The more important the professors, the more they will have to be rushing between committee meetings, classes and appointments. If their budget meeting over-runs by 30 minutes they aren't going to leave said meeting early just to see a grad student who is booked into their calendar; nor are they going to want to be late for their next meeting or lecture by getting held up by a student in a corridor or at an appointment. It isn't nice, but it's a fact of academic life. We grad students are quite low down the academic pecking order, especially if we aren't actually in a professor's research group.

 

In the first anecdote you cited, I wonder if you'd have had better luck sending an email to the professor with your question and if it really needed to be addressed face-to-face in an appointment. (It sounded like a Yes/No kind of question - will your course align with my research goals of x, y, z? - so she may have felt as if you were wasting her time)

 

Another difference in their treatment might be down to the difference in expectations between undergraduates and grad students. As an MA student the onus is on you a lot more to work stuff out for yourself, be independent and to some degree make your own decisions about what aligns best with your research goals - that is perhaps why the professors prioritise helping out the undergrads and appear curt with you. 

[PsychGirl1]

The more important the professors, the more they will have to be rushing between committee meetings, classes and appointments. If their budget meeting over-runs by 30 minutes they aren't going to leave said meeting early just to see a grad student who is booked into their calendar; nor are they going to want to be late for their next meeting or lecture by getting held up by a student in a corridor or at an appointment. It isn't nice, but it's a fact of academic life. We grad students are quite low down the academic pecking order, especially if we aren't actually in a professor's research group.

 

In the first anecdote you cited, I wonder if you'd have had better luck sending an email to the professor with your question and if it really needed to be addressed face-to-face in an appointment. (It sounded like a Yes/No kind of question - will your course align with my research goals of x, y, z? - so she may have felt as if you were wasting her time)

 

Another difference in their treatment might be down to the difference in expectations between undergraduates and grad students. As an MA student the onus is on you a lot more to work stuff out for yourself, be independent and to some degree make your own decisions about what aligns best with your research goals - that is perhaps why the professors prioritise helping out the undergrads and appear curt with you. 

 

This last paragraph. You haven't really mentioned what kinds of questions you are asking- if you're approaching profs (not your mentor) outside of class, make sure your questions are well thought out, that you have already attempted to utilize your resources to answer the question first, and that you are not wasting their time. If you ask a basic, uncomplicated question that is easily found through a google search, or reading one of the prof's more well-known papers, for example, they may understandably become curt with you. "I wanted to know if the course would align with my research goals and at my level"- to be honest, that sounds like that warrants a 5-minute response, which the prof gave you.

 

I've interacted with faculty at Harvard many times- not in your department- and they have been nothing but nice to me. In fact, I have nothing but very fond thoughts of them- for example, I took a night class there (as a non-enrolled student) while I was working in Boston, and it was taught by a Harvard professor who is quite well known in her field of research. A few months after the course ended, I sent her an email to ask her for career advice. To my surprise, she wrote back an incredibly long reply, offered to meet with me in person, and really (adamantly) encouraged me to go after the career path I was considering. She really gave me the confidence to go for it. Give it some time, have self-awareness, and keep interactions professional, mature, and intelligent.

[whirledpeas13]

I know that came across very strong -- but believe me, when I interact with professors I am very much self-deprecating and passive. I try very hard not to offend people and to give them the benefit of the doubt. I came from a public, Midwest school and worked on three undergraduate research projects with faculty in separate departments, one of whom was the director of a prestigious center focused on international, interdisciplinary research. I understand busy professors. I also have taught, so I feel like I am not coming out of left field here. I also received a prestigious fellowship to find my MA, or I wouldn't be here. Maybe the culture between public and private institutions is different, but I DO expect a professor to treat me with courtesy, and I DO expect them to answer questions that were not covered in the readings. Especially given that in the case of Professor A, office hours followed immediately in the room next door, so it wasn't as though I was catching this professor at a bad time. Professor A elaborated extensively on the person immediately in front of me, but as soon as I said, "I'm an incoming MA student from program x" this professor quickly hurried me along. In this same class, one of the teaching fellows approached me after class (recently) and said that I had a really good question, and Professor A completely blew me off. It's not just my perception alone. In the case of Professor B, I asked a question related to theoretical definitions, which we had discussed in class. Professor B was comparing the differences between disciplines in their approach to determining the usefulness of thinking in terms of causality, explanation, interpretation, description, etc, which this professor listed on a spectrum. Other students had the same sort of confusion I had (another student from my program also said she didn't quite understand the distinctions). I certainly understood Professor B suggesting I come to office hours, but then strongly suggesting I drop the class altogether in the same breath was shocking. This professor repeatedly encouraged students from a variety of backgrounds and disciplines to join the class, but then is unwilling to answer a simple, foundational question for someone without a solid background in the discipline. In a discussion, participation oriented class with people truly from a variety of disciplines, I was surprised that this professor clearly favored students in the discipline at a much more advanced level. On a completely different note, I am getting along very well with my other two professors (related directly to my regional focus), but my program is interdisciplinary, and I am trying to gain training in social sciences in preparation for PhD work. Most methods/theory courses are explicitly restricted to first-year PhD students, so my options are very limited.

[Duna]

To be quite frank again, the way you phrase your posts ("at an Ivy League School"), while your signature is saying "Harvard" and even that you are on an NSF fellowship (which is great! Congrats!) just implies to me that you really "DO expect" to be treated in a certain way. This weakens your comparison argument a lot in my perception. 

 

It is a completely superficial statement I'm making now because of what I'm reading here and in no way means I think you're an awful person but, uhm, why would you tell the world on Grad Café that you have a prestigious NSF fellowship in your signature (i.e. completely out of context) and then emphasize it again in your post? Well, I suppose because you want people to treat you in a certain way, otherwise there would be no need to communicate it to everyone, right? What if some people, including professors A and B got the same vibe and think you might feel entitled to a different treatment which they are not willing to give? 

 

Or a maybe more reasonable explanation for the office hour scenario which is pretty obvious: Maybe other people, who received much better treatment than you did in your perception, emailed the professor in advance and made an appointment for office hours? Not every professor has office hours that are drop-in hours. And if other people announced themselves, they would have been prioritized. Just as a possible alternative explanation. 

 

Right now, you're presenting a general claim and are giving anecdotal evidence in form of 2 situations that you've experienced with 2 of your professors but you're calling the thread "Discrimination against MA students". That's pretty rude and vastly over-generalized, don't you think?

I just think that running into 2 incidences would not make me open a thread about something. I'd first try to find alternative explanations, ask people from my immediate environment (which might be smarter anyways if you're posting with a signature that probably identifies you directly on a public forum), you know, find empirical evidence for the causal claim you're making and then make an appointment with your director of graduate studies or the professors trying to figure out what's been going on.

[PsychGirl1]

Basically, it's one of two things:

 

1) It's something you're doing, and therefore it's something you can change- and people have given some possible suggestions above for you to start with.

 

2) It's not something you're doing, and therefore it's something you can't change- which means the whole point of this thread is just to rant about how Harvard professors don't appreciate you.

 

If it's #2, which you seem to think it is despite all our suggestions, then I guess it's time for you to consider alternate graduate program choices or accept being miserable for the rest of your master's.

 

To be honest, each of your posts is slightly different- now you come across "very much self-deprecating and passive"- well that's certainly not good or professional either. There's one of those people in my grad program now, and even when she says something smart, it comes out sounding dumb. Approach professors as intelligent colleagues and future mentors- no self-deprecation or passiveness should be occurring. Again, I highly doubt it's your MA status.

[whirledpeas13]

Well I clearly should not reach out to this forum for support. I do not access this account on a computer, so I cannot see my signature. I am so sorry I don't obsessively come to forums and update my signature from the past application cycle. I was hoping to gain some solidarity from someone else who was going through culture shock -- students around here dress in expensive clothing and wear suits to class, and I have had a completely different experience with a few professors thus far -- or to hear from others who have felt similarly as a first year masters student. These are perceptions and feelings, not formalized accusations claiming causality. I am appalled that this thread has turned into bashing someone you know very little about while selectively reading my explanations.

[PsychGirl1]

Sometimes it takes an outsider to tell you that you're likely interpreting things the wrong way, or it may be something you can change about yourself. In my first post, re: discrimination against MA students, I'm pretty sure I told you to go for it and work hard to make sure you get the best education possible. But then in your follow-up posts, it became more clear that (to an outsider), your examples don't quite mesh with what you think the problem is. Yes, the advice and responses on this forum have been blunt, but sometimes that's needed. Our advice is based on our own experiences, and you can choose to take it or leave it. I also went through a master's program, which is why I was interested in this thread in the first place.

 

Why don't you talk to people in your program and see what their experiences have been like? If it is blanket discrimination against master's students, then they should have had the same experiences and can lend you some advice. If they haven't been experiencing a similar issue, then possibly it will point to individual characteristics that you need to consider. Also, I've taken multiple classes at your institution, and I'm pretty sure I wore sweatpants to class many times without feeling out of place. I understand it can be difficult to fit into different educational cultures- I've done it a LOT of times over the years. Good principles are to be less defensive, try to be more self-aware, and reach out to people in your program. Also, try to have an open mind.

 

PS. You say your posts are "not formalized accusations claiming causality"... yet the title of this thread is "discrimination against MA students". Just saying.

[Duna]

Well I clearly should not reach out to this forum for support. I do not access this account on a computer, so I cannot see my signature. I am so sorry I don't obsessively come to forums and update my signature from the past application cycle. I was hoping to gain some solidarity from someone else who was going through culture shock -- students around here dress in expensive clothing and wear suits to class, and I have had a completely different experience with a few professors thus far -- or to hear from others who have felt similarly as a first year masters student. These are perceptions and feelings, not formalized accusations claiming causality. I am appalled that this thread has turned into bashing someone you know very little about while selectively reading my explanations.

 

My advice could not have been THAT bad, otherwise you would not have changed your signature and profile info

 

You wanted support in bashing professors, a program and a school as being discriminating against MA students in general. What did you expect? 

 

Yes, I am still going through cultural shock. Kids from Orange County at my school wear more on their body on one day than I earn in a month here but what does the clothing style have to do with you being discriminated against as an MA student?

 

I'm sorry to hear you're having a hard time adjusting to the culture at your new school. I still am adjusting to a new culture and a vastly different educational culture and sometimes it's fun but most times it's just frustrating and extremely exhausting but it will get better if, and that's really the important take-away here, you see reactions of people as what they are RE-ACTIONS. Instead of going against those, try changing your actions and see where it might take you. If people still react shitty, then... And do talk to other people from your program. They are basically the only people who will totally get what you're talking about. No one on an online forum can really understand what's going on without being involved in the culture.

 

Good luck. 

[St Andrews Lynx]

I personally didn't think you were bragging by including information about your institution or the NSF grant in your profile signature. 

Just be careful - if you identify your department, university of study and that you are on a particular fellowship...well, it won't be hard for people to identify you. 

 

Though there is a significant difference between saying that "MA students are discriminated against here" and "I feel like I'm getting discriminated against here". Or even "I feel like I'm getting discriminated against here" and "I'm suffering culture shock here". It's hard for people on the Forum to help out if you can't accurately tell us what the real problem is.

 

If you feel that the problem is one of culture shock, then maybe hold back on the questions and try to observe how the natives behave. Is there a way that East Coast students phrase their questions that is less direct/more formal than how you usually do so? Do Ivy League academics expect to be addressed in a specific way that is different to their midwestern counterparts? 

(I know from experience that choosing the wrong option from Professor, Dr. or [First name] can cause academics to bristle - and that the preferred term of address varies between regions. So it might be something trivial that you're unknowingly getting wrong.) 

 

*

 

From what you've said it does sound like there is a gap between your expectations of how you should be treated and what the professors think is acceptable, most likely based on regional norms. When you remark "I expect to be treated with common courtesy" - it is entirely possible that the professors are giving you what they consider to be "common courtesy at an elite institution on the East Coast". 

 

It is also plausible that what you considered "presumptuous" - a professor casually suggesting that you drop the course - might to her have been a helpful suggestion (I mean, sure, if you are running into difficulties within the early introductory stages of the course, it is not completely unreasonable of her to suspect that you might really struggle with the material once you get into the harder concepts later on). 

 

*

 

For me as an international student, the best way to deal with culture shock in a new place is to at least try and meet them halfway (rather than rejecting the new culture entirely). If people commonly wear suits for class...maybe dress a bit smarter in your own daily "grad school" wardrobe? It's also about taking a step back and thinking "Does their remark *really* mean what I assumed it must mean?" 'Cause an awful lot of the time...it doesn't.

[snowshoes]

I'd like to add my two cents, and please don't take this as an attack against you in anyway.

 

You just started graduate work - it is still only September.  It sounds like you want to be treated "better than an undergraduate" but, assuming undergraduates are even treated unfairly or differently, why do your 3 weeks or so of graduate education entitle you to a newfound respect or sense of equality?

 

You pay tuition and deserve an education, but you can't expect everyone to treat you the same as others all the time.  Maybe the profs had bad days, maybe you rubbed them the wrong way (they are only human), etc.  The fact that you automatically assumed it was because of your graduate degree suggests a sense of entitlement or sense of inadequacy compared to PhD students.  Whatever it is, drop it.  Part of learning is opening your mind and becoming a sponge, not being a hyper-critical filter.

 

Don't kowtow to others but don't carry yourself with a sense of entitlement, just relax and enjoy yourself.  Grad work is hard but can be very rewarding and you are still learning about who you are.  Grad students almost always feel like they are underappreciated at some point, so don't take anything too personal or take your initial impression too seriously.

 

Again, you just started.  Don't be so sensitive and start your degree off with this mindset, it will not be a positive experience.

[juilletmercredi]

I go to an Ivy League institution (which I only mention to give you some comparative information).  In my experiences, professors could not care less what you wear to class as long as it's presentable.  The undergraduates at my institution come from more affluent backgrounds than I do and wear more expensive clothing than me, but professors do not care about that.  I mean, it's certainly *possible* that a professor is noticing your clothes, but I think it's implausible.

 

Secondly, no one is bashing you.  No one even said anything was wrong with your signature or that you were bragging.  They were just saying that your posts, coupled with some other things, gives evidence that you may have a sense of entitlement.  And although they are perceptions and feelings, you did give several statements indicating that you believe the cause is the fact that you are an MA student - which I also find implausible.  In fact, the way that you immediately acted defensively ("No, it really is because I'm an MA student, and here's some other evidence to show that." and then, when people still disagreed, "You guys are so mean, I'm appalled") actually strengthens mine and probably some other posters' skepticism that this is at all about your student status.

 

Thoughts:

1. Some professors are rude.

2. We all have confirmation bias - when we believe something, we are more likely to perceive experiences that confirm that belief and ignore things that don't.  The professor who pushed you aside may have pushed you aside after you said you were an MA student, but not because you said you were an MA student.  Likewise, the professor who told you to drop the class and asked you to make an appointment may have been doing this for reasons other than the fact that you were an MA student (and almost certainly was).

3. You can find out whether a class aligns with your research goals and your level of learning by reading the syllabus and attending the first class session or two.  I can imagine why a professor might be annoyed if you were asking her that question after class.  But she asked you to make an appointment.  That is very common.  My own adviser asks me to make appointments with him.

4. A "variety of backgrounds and disciplines" comes with the implicit expectation that you will have the prerequisite knowledge.  For example, a student in any major may take Spanish 3 - from Spanish majors to biology majors.  But you have to have taken Spanish 1 and 2 first, or at least have knowledge at the level of a person who completed Spanish 2.  Perhaps she suggested that you drop the class because she felt you weren't well-prepared for it, and maybe your question implied or indicated that you weren't prepared.  Perhaps the question you asked was too simple and foundational and made her realize that you wouldn't succeed in the class.

Give her the benefit of the doubt.

In a discussion, participation oriented class with people truly from a variety of disciplines, I was surprised that this professor clearly favored students in the discipline at a much more advanced level.

Why would this surprise you?

[Chai_latte]

I'd like to add a different perspective.  I came in as a master's student, and I'll probably switch to the PhD shortly.  I realize that we're in different fields, but I knew going in that some departments might *strongly* favor PhD candidates.  A few years ago, US News alerted incoming engineering MS candidates of that.  They suggested that one really learn about the department's dynamics beforehand.  One doesn't want to get saddled with an advisor who does not allot as much time and attention to his/her projects simply b/c (s)he'll leave in ~2yrs.  Thankfully, that wasn't my experience, but this is not unheard of (in STEM).  From here on out, don't mention your degree program.  Grad student (or just your first name) should suffice.  

 

I followed you until you went into the class/clothing bit.  If you're not getting as much "face time" b/c of your degree program, I doubt dress/money/region have anything to do with it.   This is my third, and final, "leg" of education.  I'm currently at a state school.  My 1st and 2nd schools were elite liberal arts and Ivy League, respectively.  We just wore normal clothes.  Some people may have dressed more "professionally".  Some people wore regular "student clothes".  It didn't really matter.  And it certainly didn't impact our interaction with professors (or each other).

I hope your experience improves.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Chai_latte

[PsychGirl1]

I'd like to add a different perspective.  I came in as a master's student, and I'll probably switch to the PhD shortly.  I realize that we're in different fields, but I knew going in that some departments might *strongly* favor PhD candidates.  A few years ago, US News alerted incoming engineering MS candidates of that.  They suggested that one really learn about the department's dynamics beforehand.  One doesn't want to get saddled with an advisor who does not allot as much time and attention to his/her projects simply b/c (s)he'll leave in ~2yrs.  Thankfully, that wasn't my experience, but this is not unheard of (at least in STEM).  From here on out, don't mention your degree program.  Grad student should suffice.  

I followed you until you went into the class/clothing bit.  If you're not getting as much "face time" b/c of your degree program, I doubt dress/money/region have anything to do with it.   

 

Yes- this was something that was slightly an issue in my old program (master's program students not as important as PhD students in some settings). However, there's no reason that profs would favor PhD students AND ugrads over a master's student.

[ZeChocMoose]

However, there's no reason that profs would favor PhD students AND ugrads over a master's student.

At the school in question, I could see how this could happen actually! The undergraduate college is the core of its identity and it is usually what you think of when you think of the school (with some exceptions for the Law and Business school). Then for the PhD part, this is the degree that brings the prestige to the institution. Also professors would want to prioritize them because they are seen as colleagues-in-training and are being funded by the school.

For non-terminal master's degrees, I could see how they could be deprioritized since the other students get most if not all of the attention. There is actually some great research that looks at this phenomenon but that is a bit off topic.

Is the OP being discriminated against? Sorta hard to tell given the evidence that the OP presents. Have you talked to older master's students to get their take on your two professors? That might be helpful to learn how you can better manage your relationships with them.

Edited September 26, 2013 by ZeChocMoose

[TakeruK]

Yes- this was something that was slightly an issue in my old program (master's program students not as important as PhD students in some settings). However, there's no reason that profs would favor PhD students AND ugrads over a master's student.

 

I also think it's not weird that some profs might prioritize their students in this order: PhD, senior undergrads, terminal masters. For some of these profs, they might feel that their job is train future academics, i.e future versions of themselves. Whether or not this is what they should do is a different discussion, but it's definitely true that a portion of profs will feel this way*. So, a PhD student is someone who might be them in the future. In addition, they will carry the "Harvard PhD" label forever and the prof would want to keep the reputation of their program high. An undergrad student is someone who might be a PhD student in the future -- maybe not at Harvard but they would want Harvard BA graduates to keep up the strong reputation of the undergrad program, helping undergrads get into good PhD programs and become future profs. Also, the above poster makes good points about the school's "identity". A terminal masters student is the least likely of these three groups to end up like the prof. The prof might feel that if this student was going to be a PhD in the future, they would have already been in a PhD program, not a terminal masters program. 

 

*Note: I talked to a prof about how PhDs from that prof's school fare outside of academia, in terms of job prospects. The prof responded that he had one student leave academia to use his physics knowledge to program for a video game company. Then, the prof immediately followed that up by expressing how he felt that he [the prof] wasted 5 years of his life to mentor/train this student only to have the student leave academia. 

 

I'm not trying to defend this attitude but I think there are reasons why some profs would prioritize their time with undergrad over terminal masters students. I think some profs actually believe that either 1) all of their PhD students will end up in academia because there's enough work for all of us, or that 2) only failures will not end up with an academic job. I think these attitudes are misguided and I would personally try to avoid these people as my mentors/supervisors!