I want a PhD in Cog Neuro but I don't know what to do.

[JustAPsychologist11]

I'm sorry if this comes across as if I'm fishing for compliments/looking for sympathy but I don't know who else to talk to about this in my real life and I need to get this off my chest. I have a BA/MA in psych and I graduated last September (2012). I have a 3.93 overall GPA, and a 3.96 psych GPA. My GRE scores are a 162 Q, 165V, and a 5.5. So my scores/GPA look decent, but I know that that will only get me so far.

 

I have three first-author poster presentations at conferences (EPA, APS, and APSS... the national Sleep conference) and I've completed a masters' thesis (I didn't submit it for publication because it didn't go as planned). I don't have any publications. However, I've had a year's gap now in my research since the MA partially because of my anxiety and mental health issues. I'm bipolar and I had an episode. I think I burned a bridge with someone because I had to disappear for a semester. Then, the second semester, I attempted to do stuff on my own but it didn't work out. Looking back, I've had episodes many times in my years as an undergraduate/MA student and was even hospitalized once. Even though it doesn't look it on my CV or transcript, I failed... I didn't do all that I could have done.

 

All of my research thus far have been in the general area of the things I want to apply to. I have about 3 years of experience in one lab that I started as an REU student and finished with an MA, and I've been volunteering in another lab for the past semester as an RA but in a very limited capacity because of my schedule. In the past 1.5 years, I've been a TA for a couple of classes. I've also taught various classes as an instructor from intro to psych for high school students to an upper-division seminar in sleep. But, I know that teaching experience was probably not the best use of my gap year if a research based PhD was my goal. I feel like I wasted my gap years.

 

I've been very lucky to have great mentors in my life but I can't work any of them for graduate work (interests aren't really a fit). So I have three strong letters from two professors and a clinical supervisor (m interests in cog neuro have a clinical slant) who know me extremely well (they let me read them). But, because of the issues I have with my mental illness, I'm so scared to apply. I keep freaking out about what will happen if I go somewhere and fail because of my illness and lack of confidence. Every time I open my mouth I am an airhead...I sound like an idiot. My anxiety was so bad that I couldn't bring myself to look at schools or contact all my PIs. I have panic attacks when ever I write my statements. I put together my list haphazardly and, so, it is feels unrealistic although there are at least two people at each school with whom I want to work. I'm going through with my applications, but should I have even bothered? Would I even get in without contacting PIs?

 

I'm applying to CUNY, the University of Pittsburgh, Stony Brook, Northwestern, the University of British Columbia, Stanford, UNC-Chapel Hill, U Michigan-Ann Arbor, and Duke. 

This doesn't feel right but I want to go to graduate school really badly. Research is the only thing that usually keeps me happy. There is nothing else I want to do. I have trouble waking up sometmes because it's just hit me that I may never accomplish my dreams. I worked in my first cogneuro lab when I was 16... I was there for a while but had a manic episode so I don't usually mention it. Should I have bothered applying?

 

Sorry for rambling, I had to get this off my chest.

 

 

[BeingThere]

I've heard that it's not a good idea to mention any kind of mental illness in an application.  So, I don't know how you are handling that or if you are not mentioning it.  But that is neither here nor there, as I don't have any personal experience to offer.

 

I would suggest you make sure your illness is under control before you consider a PhD program.  I'm sure you are aware of the amount of stress you are likely to encounter and if stress is a trigger for your symptoms, you might need to be able to be sure you can treat them effectively so they don't interrupt your work.

 

No one here can tell you whether you should apply.  But your concerns do sound, um, concerning.  You are correct that high scores/GPA will only get you so far.  They certainly will not help you deal with stress/pressure or mental illness issues.

 

But here is something I hope will give you some hope.  You sound young (late 20's??)  There is plenty of time.  Take care of yourself and school will be there when you are ready.  I'm a non-traditional applicant and I hear about people in their 20's fretting about "wasting time" and I just shake my head.  You have time, whether it seems that way or not.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Bren2014

[JustAPsychologist11]

I would never mention my illness. No one knows about it at school.  I'm 24.

[natfilm]

Dear JustApsychologist, 

 

I think you have amazing stats. and credentials and I can't imagine how hard it must have been to be such a successful student and deal with mental illness at the same time. I think it's amazing that you've discovered what makes you happy and I can only encourage you to pursue your dreams. I am sure you will accomplish them. You are really young and have your whole life ahead of you, there is no reason to think that you won't accomplish your dreams at this point in time. 

 

I think its unhelpful to think what will happen when you get accepted and worry about failure due to your illness or lack of confidence. The fact is that you succeeded well in your studies up till now and you didn't fail. On the contrary, you shined.

 

The application process is stressful and alienating for everyone  however, having panic attacks and severe anxiety when writing your SOP and letters to POI's just doesn't feel right - as you said so yourself.

 

I'm sorry to hear that you have no one to discuss this with in real life and going through this without support can be very lonely. Is there a colleague/advisor/supervisor/counsellor you can talk to?

 

I'm wondering how having support and someone to speak to during the process might make things a little easier. 

 

Best of luck, 

[JustAPsychologist11]

Hey guys,

 

Thanks for your replies. This helps. Thank you.  I do have a therapist... the problem is that she makes it seem like it isn't a big deal and that there is no real reason why I should be freaking out this much. She underestimates this process and my anxieties and constantly tells me that I'm just letting this anxiety get a hold of me when it shouldn't. I actually felt pressure to apply from her but that's a stupid reason to do anything. I know. Maybe I need a new therapist. 

 

I also wasn't completely correct when I said that no one knows. My MA thesis adviser is at a different school...she knows. I spoke with her today. She told me that I should just push along and that if I fall, I'll pick myself up like I always do and will make up for it when I'm okay. I don't know how much I agree. She just said that I had to make sure that I ended up in a lab with compassionate people who are okay with my downs as long as I am doing everything I can to be okay. I would never tell people in which ever dept I'm going to that I'm mentally ill unless I HAVE to. I'm have no intention of using it in my SOP... I have lots of other things I can write about and I don't have any gaps or inconsistencies I have to explain away. 

 

It sucks... all my LORs, GRE scores, and transcripts have already gone out, so I can't back out now. I think I'm just going to push through this semester with the applications. I'll contact POIs now even though it's too late. Just damage control and do the best I can. Then, next semester I'll apply for RA/RC/Lab Manager positions? I have enough experience for that I think. I'll use my rejections to help me apply more effectively in the future. I can consider this last admissions cycle a very expensive mistake and pick myself again for another application cycle sometime in the future. 

 

Thanks for listening.

Edited November 7, 2013 by JustAPsychologist11

[PsychGirl1]

I also agree that you have amazing stats! Many people wish they could have your CV, I'm sure :-). Also, I think that teaching experience is a GREAT use of gap years, especially if you want to be a professor in the future. I'd definitely stress that in your pstatement!

 

Here's my advice... I'm not a licensed psychologist, so this is not any sort of clinical advice, please take it with a grain of salt. This is just my personal advice that I would probably give a friend in the same situation as you:

 

1) First, seek treatment. You didn't mention if you were in treatment and/or taking medication. Personally, I probably wouldn't go through the application process if I didn't feel like I was relatively stable and had a solid treatment team to fall back on. I found the application process incredibly exhausting and stressful, two things that can be difficult for anyone to handle.

 

2) After you feel more stabilized and have good treatment resources, I'd go for it and apply. Make sure you get enough rest during the application and interview process, and keep in close contact with your psychologist or psychiatrist. You can read books by Elyn Saks ("The Center Cannot Hold") and Kay Jamison ("An Unquiet Mind") for inspiration- they both had mental disorders with some severe episodes throughout their career, and they still became 100x more successful than I probably ever will be. Before you transition to your new program and new city, work with your current treatment team to establish a solid treatment team in your new city. You can work with your treatment team to learn how to recognize your triggers, and they can serve as an important safety net to help you get through your program successfully. You will probably also want to check with the program to look at their policies for taking terms off for personal reasons, just in case you ever feel like you need to take some time off over the next few years. And lastly, I'd ask about their health insurance coverage and make sure they cover mental health services.

 

I think it's likely you will have a fantastic career in the field. :-D

[PsychGirl1]

Hey guys,

 

Thanks for your replies. This helps. Thank you. I do have a therapist... the problem is that she makes it seem like it isn't a big deal and that there is no real reason why I should be freaking out this much. She underestimates this process and my anxieties and constantly tells me that I'm just letting this anxiety get a hold of me when it shouldn't. 

 

I also wasn't completely correct when I said that no one knows. My MA thesis adviser is at a different school...she knows. I spoke with her last week. She told me that I should just push along and that if I fall, I'll pick myself up like I always do. I don't know how much I agree. I would never tell people in which ever dept I'm going to that I'm mentally ill unless I HAVE to. I'm have no intention of using it in my SOP... I have lots of other things I can write about and I don't have any gaps or inconsistencies I have to explain away.

 

It sucks... all my LORs, GRE scores, and transcripts have already gone out, so I can't back out now. I think I'm just going to push through this semester with the applications. I'll contact POIs now even though it's too late. Just damage control and do the best I can. Then, next semester I'll apply for RA/RC/Lab Manager positions? I have enough experience for that I think. I'll use my rejections to help me apply more effectively in the future. I can consider this last admissions cycle a very expensive mistake and pick myself again for another application cycle sometime in the future. 

 

Thanks for listening.

 

Oops- we posted at the same time :-D.

 

First, switch therapists. That is the last thing a therapist should ever make you feel like. Make sure you work with someone who specializes in BD. You might want to see both a psychologist and a psychiatrist, and also consider the possibility of medication. (Not saying you should, but I'd talk to about it as an option, for now, or later).

 

Agree, do not discuss your mental health situation- it's nobody's business currently.

 

Second, if you are having second thoughts, I'd contact the school and ask them if there is a way for them to hold your application on file and you resubmit it next year without having to resend your LORs, GREs, transcripts, etc. again. You might be surprised at how easy it is to reapply if you want a few more months to figure things out. :-D

[Socrates1]

 

But here is something I hope will give you some hope.  You sound young (late 20's??)  There is plenty of time.  Take care of yourself and school will be there when you are ready.  I'm a non-traditional applicant and I hear about people in their 20's fretting about "wasting time" and I just shake my head.  You have time, whether it seems that way or not.

Eh, I freak out about this too. I have a bunch of friends from undergrad in biochem and chem programs who of course all went straight into PhD programs and I didn't. Just what is the "usual" age for going into neuroscience programs anyways?

[PsychGirl1]

I'm 27 and just started my PhD. You will find that it varies by program and PI- some seem to prefer people who come out of undergrad and do a 1-2 gap year, some seem to prefer people who have their master's, and some seem to prefer people who switch from other careers. There was a very definite pattern when I interviewed as to the group of us who was interviewing- however, it varied school-by-school. Overall, I'd say the wide range of people going back to get their PhD for psych/neuro/clin psych is about 22-35, with an average of maybe 25-27.

 

 

(^ I made those numbers up based on my own experience :-D)

Edited November 8, 2013 by PsychGirl1

[BeingThere]

Eh, I freak out about this too. I have a bunch of friends from undergrad in biochem and chem programs who of course all went straight into PhD programs and I didn't. Just what is the "usual" age for going into neuroscience programs anyways?

I was speaking more in general life terms.  When you are 32 or 35, you will find that you still have as much intellectual vigor and passion as you did when you were 24, only you may know more about yourself << because that often comes with age.  (I would be very surprised to learn that programs would weight age much if at all in the selection process. You can be fantastic at 22 and you can be fantastic at 35.  Or 40.)  Being in a similar age cohort is a different question - that's more about personal preference and tolerance for difference. 

 

Caveat:  I am not saying everyone should have gap years or wait til they're older.  I'm only saying that there's probably some wisdom in bending with the flow of your life.  If circumstances make it necessary to take care of other things rather than jump right into the grad school, then take care of those things in your life.  And I'm saying that doesn't have to be the end of your dream at all.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Bren2014

[JustAPsychologist11]

I feel like I want to put up a bit of an update. Okay ... so I applied to 9 schools. It was a bit of a sh*tshow, but the apps did go in. I believe that my letters, although glowing, may not have been the best fit for my applications because I never asked for a letter from someone who actually knows all of my POIs (because I'm an idiot). Also, I threw in a random clinical rec for some of my heavily experimental programs. (I'm applying cog neuro but I'm interested in clinical questions so I thought it made sense but it actually didn't).

When I told this professor about this she basically said, well...now you know what to do for next year and that she will write a letter for me the next time around if I have to do this process again. Also, I'm worried that my SOPs sucked and I didn't contact my POIs as I should have, but I feel like I learned something. I'm much more clear about what I want and don't want at this point and, now that the meds have kicked in and I've quit my adjunct gig, I actually feel stable again and have the time/energy to do this! I'm excited about stuff again, and am so thrilled to be able to read and contact people again. I haven't felt this way in almost a year.

 

I'm going to spend the next six months continuing to work in this lab and get EEG experience, I'm going to brush up on my coding skills, I'm taking a doctoral stats class next semester, and I'm considering working in a second lab to get some fMRI experience. I'm doing NOTHING ELSE for the next 9-10 months except lab work. The thing is, between these two labs I'll actually be working with two of my POIs for one of my schools. So, next year when I apply, hopefully I'll have three letters from people who know my research abilities and two of the letters will actually be from people I'm applying to anyway. Also, between them, they know everyone else I'm applying too. For next year I'm either going to stay here and keep volunteering (or see if I can get hired) in the labs and get more deeply involved, or I'll apply to work with one of my POIs at another institution who's hiring this year. He tends to take people on 2-year contracts for lab manager/research coordinator positions (unfortunately, that pushes my ability to apply back another year... but I'll deal because it's a great offer in the extremely unlikely chance it works out).

 

So, all that said, my chances for next year seem much better given my plans for the next 10-18ish months. Have I screwed up my chances for next year by keeping my applications in the pool this cycle? Will having already applied once preclude me from being accepted even though my CV will be better because I'm doing a lot in the next year? Should I withdraw my apps from some of the more competitive school so that I actually have a shot for next year at those programs (I mean, my GRE scores, GPA, and research experience make me a decent candidate... I don't want to shoot myself in the foot)?

 

Meh.

[Lisa44201]

Assuming for the moment you do not get in (and FWIW I think it's a little early to be completely pessimistic), your apps from this year will have no bearing on next year's app cycle. In other words, it doesn't matter at all if you applied to a school this year, and apply to that same school next year; they are completely independent events, and AdComms will not go digging up this year's app to compare it to next year; what matters is that you improve who you are as a candidate, and you have a solid plan for doing so.

 

(I am currently attending a University that rejected my application when I originally applied three years ago.)