Classes/Scheduling Requests

[kateausten]

Can anyone tell me whether it is terribly uncouth to make some (minor) requests to the coordinator in charge of assigning TAs to courses in my department?  I would mainly like to request not to have both an early and a night class.  This semester I teach one of the earliest classes that we have (10AM 5 days a week and we have nothing earlier than 9), and I am also the person responsible for the class that lasts the latest into the night.  I am far more productive before I teach than after I teach, so I try to wake up really early to get some work done, and not getting home until 9pm on the nights I teach the other class a) messes with my own sleep schedule and isn't ideal for the students who have me at an hour when I'd normally be about to go to bed.   (I know it sounds laughable for a grad student to complain about 9pm, but  am literally in bed by that time most nights - it helps me get in some productive time before I'm brain fried from teaching.) 

 

I'd like to request to avoid this situation next semester, but I've never even heard of anyone voicing preferences or making requests to the coordinator.  I don't consider it out-of-line myself, seems totally rational to take our preferences into consideration, but the important question is will I be seen as demanding, complaining, etc if I say something?  She has never asked for our preferences whatsoever, only our class schedules.

[Sigaba]

I would not make the request even if the coordinator solicited the information. Instead, my focus would be on how to be an effective TA regardless of the schedule. IMO, one's personal preferences are not more important than the needs of one's department.

 

That being said, if you are going to make the request, phrase it in terms of what you want to do, not what you don't want to do.

[St Andrews Lynx]

A class finishing at 9pm isn't that late, at my V. Large State School we have classes that run until 11pm (I've had to proctor some late night exams, but fortunately not yet have had teach that shift). Nor is 10am especially early - for a 9-5 job most of us would have to get up at 7am. In that light, I don't think you'd come across in a positive way for complaining about those hours to the TA co-ordinator. After all, every TA would prefer not to teach a night class...

 

This might be the point in time to start shifting your sleep schedule back an hour. Bananas, green tea, seeds and fruit smoothies (that contain bananas) are all great for keeping my energy levels up in the evenings.

[fuzzylogician]

I don't know, it seems to me that being required to teach both a class that starts at 10am and a class that ends at 9pm is a bit much, it requires the OP to be on campus for 11 straight hours. If that happened to me, I'd make sure to talk to the coordinator next time around to ask not to be put in that situation again, if possible. Maybe I'd come off as demanding, but if it would otherwise significantly affect the quality of my life and work, I would be willing to take that chance (of course, while still doing my best not to come off as such). I've made unsolicited requests because of a medical condition in the past, and they have always been well received. I know it's not quite the same, but I think the OP has good reasons to ask for some consideration.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

It seems like a perfectly reasonable complaint. Obviously your sleep patterns have worked well for you since you've made it this far. If throwing off your sleep patterns could jeopardize your success, I think it would be in the best interest of yours and your school's if you get a different TA schedule. They've invested a lot in you and if this could throw off your sleeping, which in turn could throw off your production, I think they'd be happy to make the change for you. That's just my opinion. 

[rising_star]

I'm with fuzzylogician. I would absolutely make the request and frame it as politely as possible. Because, realistically, people make requests about TA time slots for lots of reasons unrelated to their class schedule, like child care or religious services/obligations. In my graduate department, there's basically no way someone would do a 10am class and also a class that didn't end until 10pm. The conventional wisdom among the English adjuncts at my current school is that being willing to teach early in the morning makes you invaluable. That said, if you're most productive in the morning, I would request afternoon/evening slots for teaching. If you have classmates with children, you can frame it as wanting to make the overall scheduling easier and/or free up the daycare's open hours for those with childcare needs.

 

Yes, in my grad department, you'd be looked at as a pain in the ass by some. But, back when I cared about that, I didn't speak up and ending up teaching 4 discussion sections in a row and then going immediately to a 75 minute class, a 15 minute break, and a 3 hour grad seminar. It was the longest and worst day of every single week of that semester. I especially hated days with exams in the class because it meant I taught for four hours then had 10 minutes to mentally prep myself for an exam. It was dreadful and my performance in the class and the seminar both suffered because I was brain-dead about halfway through the seminar.

 

Here's the real deal: Research takes priority over teaching pretty much everywhere. If your research is suffering because you have to teach late at night and early in the morning, you're going to have big problems as you go into comprehensive/qualifying exams and write your dissertation. The only person to advocate for you is you really. So do it.

 

P.S. St. Andrews Lynx, while neither of those times is late nor early for most jobs, it might be useful to think of retail or restaurant jobs that are open 24 hours. Employees rarely work second shift one day (getting off around 11pm) and then open (5-9am) the next day. While this isn't exactly the equivalent, it's fairly similar in terms of why that may not be the best idea.

[danieleWrites]

I'm with everyone else. I'd totally make the request. In deference to the person who has to wrangle the TA and adjunct assignments, I would phrase it in such a way that the person would know that I was very aware of the pain in the butt these things are. Perhaps dropping in with a chagrined, hey, I know how much a pain this is and I really hate to be a bother, but if it's at all possible, could I get sections that weren't so spread out in the day? I love campus, but being here for 12 hours a day? If you can't do it, that's cool, but I'm hoping you can. Thank you so much!

 

As for not making requests even when they ask? I don't see the sense. It's not rude to make preferences known. It's rude to think one is entitled to one's preferences and get all worked up when those preferences aren't possible. I've been asked what my scheduling preferences were, and if there were times I absolutely couldn't teach (aside from classes I was taking), and the reason why I couldn't teach at that time. I let them know my preferences, and made it clear that I considered my preferences pretty much low on the priority list when it comes to arranging the schedule, so however it works out, it'll work out. Of course, it's English in a large university, so there's 100s of sections to deal with and a few prima donnas.

[dr. t]

P.S. St. Andrews Lynx, while neither of those times is late nor early for most jobs, it might be useful to think of retail or restaurant jobs that are open 24 hours. Employees rarely work second shift one day (getting off around 11pm) and then open (5-9am) the next day. While this isn't exactly the equivalent, it's fairly similar in terms of why that may not be the best idea.

 

That is because, depending on the state, this is illegal. 10-hour mandatory turn-around time is the usual law.

 

I would make the request, and wonder at the assignment in the first place. That is not a reasonable thing to give.

[Sigaba]

As for not making requests even when they ask? I don't see the sense. It's not rude to make preferences known.

 

The reasons center around my belief that the needs of a department are greater than the preferences of a teaching assistant.  YMMV.

[TakeruK]

I would also agree with fuzzy and daniele and make the request. After all, it's a request, not a demand. I think it's important sometimes to not be afraid to stand up for yourself n order to make sure you don't get stuck with a crappy situation. For example, getting stuck with both the very first class and the very last class of the day is what I would call a crappy situation. Also, if you have a long commute, it's reasonable to request to not have the first or last class of the day. Or, if you have children to drop off / pick up at childcare.

 

I do agree with Sigaba's belief that since we are employed as teaching assistants, the department has the authority and power to determine when we meet our job obligations. And that ultimately, the department needs to meet its own needs before meeting every TA's preferences. However, there's no reason why the department can't both fulfill its own needs as well as TA needs! As employees (well actually, many schools don't even recognize our employee status so I think that weakens our work-related obligations but that's another topic) we are allowed to make reasonable requests about our working conditions. And in many cases, I would think that the department want to make sure its TAs are happy and doing the best work, and they can't solve problems if they don't know the problems exist.

 

For example, if your computer/desk chair was causing you back problems, would you not ask to see if there was a way to replace it (find another unused chair, or check if there is budget to purchase a new one etc.). Or if the lighting in your office is too dim and causing you a headache -- maybe they just don't know the bulb needs to be changed. Obviously, there is a right way to make these requests and a wrong way but I'm assuming that we would go about this the right way. The department may very well be willing to do what it can to improve our working conditions, but they can't fix things they don't know about. 

 

I don't think there is any major harm in making requests if you do it the right way and be prepared for them to say no. Ultimately, if we are unhappy about something, we should seek to get it changed. In my opinion, it's reasonable for grad students in a department to try to improve their current conditions. Perhaps, collectively all of the grad students could even make a goal of trying to put enough pressure on the department to make one small change at a time. In your department, perhaps one small change that a lot of students might appreciate is the ability to put in TA assignment preferences!

Edited November 27, 2013 by TakeruK

[kateausten]

Thanks everyone! I'll add a polite note about it when I send her my class schedule for next semester.  The need for this is partly medical, which I was not planning to bring up but maybe I should?  I have ADHD (which I recently went through testing for and found out is more severe than I thought) so it's vital that I work according to my energy levels and I cannot concentrate if I'm tired (it's really bad - I get so spacey that I'm positive my students notice and I even avoid driving as best I can).  The ADHD makes teaching more mentally draining for me than it is for many.  I also have a crappy respiratory system and get colds and infections easily when sleep deprived, even just 7-hours-instead-of-my-usual-9 sleep deprived, and I have had to have surgery for sinus infections in the past.  I know it's not typical for an American adult to sleep 9 hours a night but I've given up a lot in my personal life to make it work, like a social life and several career options.  I'd rather a part time job like TA-ing not derail that!

 

Regarding the needs of the department being more important than my own, if it were absolutely unavoidable then I would understand and continue teaching this schedule.  I just don't think that it is - based on knowing my colleagues' schedules, I think the fact that I'm teaching the absolute latest and second-earliest class is a result of the coordinator either not realizing or not caring how inconvenient it would be.  There are tons of afternoon classes and tons of people who have no morning classes at all who could do the later ones.  (And I know that 10AM is not that early and 9PM is not that late, so I don't blame the coordinator for not realizing it -- if I could just wake up in time for my class and then be productive all day afterward I wouldn't care.)  Even with that said I don't think it's ideal to truly care more about your employer's needs than your own, it pretty much guarantees that you'll be taken advantage of and my colleagues that feel that way about the department and their students seem to get burnt out very quickly when they realize that it is not at all reciprocal. 

[TakeruK]

Even with that said I don't think it's ideal to truly care more about your employer's needs than your own, it pretty much guarantees that you'll be taken advantage of and my colleagues that feel that way about the department and their students seem to get burnt out very quickly when they realize that it is not at all reciprocal. 

 

I agree -- it is a fact that the employer needs outweigh any individual's preferences, since they are paying us. But it is a choice to not do anything and let the employer get their way all the time, or to speak up and make sure your own needs are also taken care of!

[danieleWrites]

The reasons center around my belief that the needs of a department are greater than the preferences of a teaching assistant.  YMMV.

 

I agree that the needs of the department are greater than the preferences of any teacher, be they TA or chair. But, I see a difference between making a preference known (politely and with understanding of the realities of TAing and departments) and making a demand. As you say, YMMV.

[lewin]

The needs of the department are important but only within reason. I find it hard to believe that the department's scheduling is so restrictive that a single person must be scheduled on campus for 12 hours in a row. She couldn't do 10am and 2pm? Or 3pm and 9pm? I would definitely request accommodation and wouldn't even bother with the rest of the excuses; the 12 hour things should be enough on its own for any reasonable person.

[Sigaba]

I don't know, it seems to me that being required to teach both a class that starts at 10am and a class that ends at 9pm is a bit much, it requires the OP to be on campus for 11 straight hours. If that happened to me, I'd make sure to talk to the coordinator next time around to ask not to be put in that situation again, if possible. Maybe I'd come off as demanding, but if it would otherwise significantly affect the quality of my life and work, I would be willing to take that chance (of course, while still doing my best not to come off as such). I've made unsolicited requests because of a medical condition in the past, and they have always been well received. I know it's not quite the same, but I think the OP has good reasons to ask for some consideration.

 

 

The needs of the department are important but only within reason. I find it hard to believe that the department's scheduling is so restrictive that a single person must be scheduled on campus for 12 hours in a row. She couldn't do 10am and 2pm? Or 3pm and 9pm? I would definitely request accommodation and wouldn't even bother with the rest of the excuses; the 12 hour things should be enough on its own for any reasonable person.

 

With respect, where does it say in the OP that kateausten must be on campus the whole time between the morning and evening classes?

[lewin]

With respect, where does it say in the OP that kateausten must be on campus the whole time between the morning and evening classes?

 

That's a fair point, I was extrapolating based on my own situation (long commute to campus), and also it was implied by the OP.

[TakeruK]

The timing of shifts matter. I think most reasonable people would agree that, in most cases, a worker working a shift from 10am to noon, and then another from from 6pm to 8pm will require more time commitment than a shift from 1pm to 5pm. If everyone else has single shifts and the OP has split shifts, I think that is a good reason to bring this up so that the same people don't get split shifts over and over again. If everyone has these split shifts though (although that would be an abnormally large number of night classes) then perhaps there is nothing that could be done.

 

Bringing up an issue and asking for a scheduling accommodation is not the same thing as demanding the department schedule things your way. If it's not possible, then it's not possible. But the department can't fix problems that it doesn't know about, even if they wanted to help accommodate students. 

 

On a side note, TA scheduling has come up at my MSc school before. TAs there are unionized so there is a collective agreement that governs issues like this. The current agreement stipulates a maximum number of scheduled work hours in one day before overtime wages kick in and also any scheduled work on Sundays are paid at overtime rates. From TA feedback, the union will be trying to negotiate "standard work hours" where a TA can be normally scheduled (something like 8am to 6pm) and any hours beyond that would require volunteering or overtime rates. Our department actually had this issue come up as well -- due to safety regulations, senior undergrads were no longer allowed to work in the labs on their final lab course projects unsupervised (the lab techs leave at 5pm). The department discussed the potential of requiring the TAs for these lab courses to hang out in the lab from e.g. 7pm to 10pm but this idea was shot down by many profs and students alike because of the very late work hours. In the end, they decided that they would have to hire qualified personnel to do this separately from TA contracts and/or not allow undergrads to access the lab when no one is around. 

 

Although my MSc school is not in the US and Canadian labour laws are fairly different from US laws (TAs aren't even considered employees in some places!), I wanted to point out that the "department schedules everything without regard to student preferences" is not necessarily a universal and inevitable outcome. Many departments are able to schedule TA work while considering student preferences just fine and it's not an unreasonable thing to at least think about or to ask the department to consider.

[Sigaba]

The timing of shifts matter. I think most reasonable people would agree that, in most cases, a worker working a shift from 10am to noon, and then another from from 6pm to 8pm will require more time commitment than a shift from 1pm to 5pm. If everyone else has single shifts and the OP has split shifts, I think that is a good reason to bring this up so that the same people don't get split shifts over and over again. If everyone has these split shifts though (although that would be an abnormally large number of night classes) then perhaps there is nothing that could be done.

 

Bringing up an issue and asking for a scheduling accommodation is not the same thing as demanding the department schedule things your way. If it's not possible, then it's not possible. But the department can't fix problems that it doesn't know about, even if they wanted to help accommodate students. 

 

On a side note, TA scheduling has come up at my MSc school before. TAs there are unionized so there is a collective agreement that governs issues like this. The current agreement stipulates a maximum number of scheduled work hours in one day before overtime wages kick in and also any scheduled work on Sundays are paid at overtime rates. From TA feedback, the union will be trying to negotiate "standard work hours" where a TA can be normally scheduled (something like 8am to 6pm) and any hours beyond that would require volunteering or overtime rates. Our department actually had this issue come up as well -- due to safety regulations, senior undergrads were no longer allowed to work in the labs on their final lab course projects unsupervised (the lab techs leave at 5pm). The department discussed the potential of requiring the TAs for these lab courses to hang out in the lab from e.g. 7pm to 10pm but this idea was shot down by many profs and students alike because of the very late work hours. In the end, they decided that they would have to hire qualified personnel to do this separately from TA contracts and/or not allow undergrads to access the lab when no one is around. 

 

Although my MSc school is not in the US and Canadian labour laws are fairly different from US laws (TAs aren't even considered employees in some places!), I wanted to point out that the "department schedules everything without regard to student preferences" is not necessarily a universal and inevitable outcome. Many departments are able to schedule TA work while considering student preferences just fine and it's not an unreasonable thing to at least think about or to ask the department to consider.

 

My point of view, "reasonable" or not  , is that being a squeaky wheel about a "split" schedule is a potential misuse of a graduate student's modest fund of political capital.  MOO, that's a resource best used when it is time to act as an advocate for the students a T.A. is tasked to support.

 

Moreover, I believe that there's a difference between what one prefers as an individual and what one needs as a graduate student. IME, professors can tell when graduate students privilege the former, and I've seen graduate students get burned because they preferred not to embrace the suck.

 

YMMV.

[NatureGurl]

Jumping in here. Particular graduate students have more social capital--for whatever reason--and are therefore able to "request" teaching schedules that meet their needs as well as the needs of the department. I do not agree that the needs of the department come first. TAing is of mutual benefit, and the department will have better TAs (theoretically) if they take some care to address issues that are important to TAs, such as scheduling. Of course, there are some things the department cannot control. For instance, at my institution, we sometimes have to teach in out of the way buildings. But, I've noticed that TAs who have more social capital are not assigned those sections. The pecking order--faculty first, then grad students, then adjunct faculty--seems reasonable. But, even within that structure, there is wiggle room. As others suggest, I believe that a polite request is reasonable.

[TakeruK]

My point of view, "reasonable" or not  , is that being a squeaky wheel about a "split" schedule is a potential misuse of a graduate student's modest fund of political capital.  MOO, that's a resource best used when it is time to act as an advocate for the students a T.A. is tasked to support.

 

 I don't think it is a misuse but I do agree that we don't have much political capital. This is why I think TAs should have labour unions so that certain privileges are signed into a contract and the collective political capital of the entire campus' TA population is used to gain better working conditions for TAs. For example, in a current place without a union, I would feel that I would be using up a fair bit of goodwill if I were to take a week off from my TA duties to attend an important conference (or if I was to get sick for example) and that if I have another request, it would be much harder to get it granted. In a situation where a collective agreement makes conference travel leave a fundamental employee right instead of a privilege to be requested, then we can free up our political capital for other uses. 

 

Also, as the above poster said, not everyone is able to gain the same amount of political capital. Some people are less forceful, or have stricter employers, etc. A union allows for everyone to have exactly the same rights and privileges, without needing to fight for it. 

 

Moreover, I believe that there's a difference between what one prefers as an individual and what one needs as a graduate student. IME, professors can tell when graduate students privilege the former, and I've seen graduate students get burned because they preferred not to embrace the suck.

 

YMMV.

Definitely true that there is a difference between "needs" and "prefers". But why should graduate students only get what they need and nothing more? I think this is where we fundamentally disagree, and I don't really think either one of us will change our mind. All the departments I have ever been in has always solicited our opinion about any parts of the program that would be considered part of "the suck" and I always try to give thoughtful and useful feedback. Even if this is a trap to identify the "bad students", I don't really mind because I believe that we should fight against parts that suck where possible (within reason) and if I don't get a job in the future because of it, then I would probably be happier elsewhere anyways. 

[kateausten]

My point of view, "reasonable" or not  , is that being a squeaky wheel about a "split" schedule is a potential misuse of a graduate student's modest fund of political capital.  MOO, that's a resource best used when it is time to act as an advocate for the students a T.A. is tasked to support.

 

Moreover, I believe that there's a difference between what one prefers as an individual and what one needs as a graduate student. IME, professors can tell when graduate students privilege the former, and I've seen graduate students get burned because they preferred not to embrace the suck.

 

YMMV.

 

I respect that point of view but my own is that TAing is a job, and my department is an employer.  I owe it to my employer and those affected to do the job I agreed to do to the best of my ability, but I don't owe the university or my students the limited power I have to pursue my own best interests in tiny ways.  I know that many teachers - probably most or all of the best teachers - take the job more personally, fight and make sacrifices for their students, and find this rewarding, but it's not me.  I would get burnt out quickly (and so have many of my peers who think they owe their students the world).  (I'm on a professional track and never pretended to be interested in teaching as a career -- it's not like I got this job under the guise of being passionate about teaching.)

 

Anyways, I don't need the advice anymore but feel free to continue debating or posting advice in case someone else with a similar dilemma finds the thread.  I did add a polite mention of the issue in an email about the spring schedule.  Basically "This would be extremelly helpful for my productivity, but I totally understand if it can't work."  To me, that is not confusing preferences with needs.  I prioritized one preference and dropped all the less important ones, considered it carefully before deciding that it was worth one of my limited "special request" points, and explicitly said that I understand if it can't be accommodated instead of saying that I absolutely CANNOT work a split schedule because of XYZ issues.  

 

Since it was mentioned above, I am not required to stay on campus the entire day, but because I have an early afternoon class myself, it winds up being very inefficient for me to go home in between.  I do sometimes if I desperately need to do some chores at home, but it winds up being a lot of time spent on transportation just to be home for 2-3 hours.