Too young for MFA?

[Moonhart44]

I am (in two weeks) a 21 year old college graduate.  I only have a minor in art because they did not have an art major at my school.  Despite that I have been a TA at my art class, showed in a few places (very small but still), and taught art to young children at elementary schools.

 

Do you think I have a chance of getting accepted to a school that's not an MFA factory like SFAI? I heard of people like me making it, but of course, there art could have been way stronger.

 

I know there are other threads that say, hey show your artwork here, but I posted in all of them and I do not even get critique on how much it sucks.  Could you also look at this and tell me what is lacking?

Edited December 5, 2013 by Moonhart44

[kafralal]

I find it hard to make comments about your work because it lacks cohesion. A re-organization of the individual pieces may help, but it also may be that you need to work through your ideas more. The first two sentences of your statement are good, but you loose me when you start telling me what to think. I also don't think that in general your figures are particulary distorted, so that throws me off as well.

[Yellow Magnet]

From the portfolio available on your website, it seems that you have room to grow with your practice.  Formal studies in figure drawing from a nude model would really strengthen your direction.  Also, You could benefit from attending a Post Bac certificate program before applying to a graduate school.  This type of training at an established art institution would help you to really build a portfolio specifically for graduate school and also make contacts who can help you in the process (i.e helping you choose programs, reviewing your statements, and writing you references...which the majority of applications will need 3)

 

It is not that someone at your age couldn't get into graduate school at the age of 21, its weather you are ready.  Do you know the reason why you want a MFA and what degree program? It does not hurt to start doing your research for portfolio and statement requirements. You can even reach out to programs to get an advance review of your portfolio through national portfolio days.

[Moonhart44]

I find it hard to make comments about your work because it lacks cohesion. A re-organization of the individual pieces may help, but it also may be that you need to work through your ideas more. The first two sentences of your statement are good, but you loose me when you start telling me what to think. I also don't think that in general your figures are particulary distorted, so that throws me off as well.

Thank you for you critique!

 

I agree with the cohesion.  After viewing some of y'alls work, I saw a difference.  But I am not sure as well.  Their worked together seemed almost too similar in my opinion. I didn't like that.  I guess it can be argued that is just them being a focused artist though.

Also in regards to you saying "you lose me when you start telling me what to think", I don't really like when people try to tell me what my art is.  I know what it is and I am going to tell you what it is.  It is okay if you don't agree with what it is.  when i say you i mean like people in general.  

 

I need to work on it more. 

 

thank you again

[Moonhart44]

From the portfolio available on your website, it seems that you have room to grow with your practice.  Formal studies in figure drawing from a nude model would really strengthen your direction.  Also, You could benefit from attending a Post Bac certificate program before applying to a graduate school.  This type of training at an established art institution would help you to really build a portfolio specifically for graduate school and also make contacts who can help you in the process (i.e helping you choose programs, reviewing your statements, and writing you references...which the majority of applications will need 3)

 

It is not that someone at your age couldn't get into graduate school at the age of 21, its weather you are ready.  Do you know the reason why you want a MFA and what degree program? It does not hurt to start doing your research for portfolio and statement requirements. You can even reach out to programs to get an advance review of your portfolio through national portfolio days.

Thank you for the replying to this thread!

 

Um, You're correct, I do have room to grow.  I will always feel that way though.  I know i could be doing this for another forty years and still think I need improvement.

 

I am against post-bac's because they cost thousands of dollars and they are pretty insignificant. I feel like its a way a college gets money. That is my opinion though.  If i do not go to get a post-bac, then how will i grow with the help of strong professors? that is a problem i'd face if i didnt do it.

 

Also what made you recommend nude sketch formal studies? I don't have many paintings that focus on the body, and the ones that do are purposefully distorted and I am also not focused on naturalistic body forms.  Do you think, perhaps it is not deliberate looking enough? or is it about painting like contours or details.

Thank you again~

[Loric]

This is where your age is showing...

 

You don't get to tell people what your art "is." You have an audience, they experience your art, and if you're lucky they'll buy it or see value in it and put it in museums - and then the message you're trying to communicate gets out to the public. You might make a difference, you might facilitate change, you might be important in the big scheme.

 

You cultivate an audience, but you do not tell them what to think of anything. Your work stands alone and you can't be there next to it.

 

How would you measure success? How happy you are producing art..? Well, then that's just masturbation and much like the real thing, you don't share it with other people.  If you want to be taken seriously you have to have goals that - while not necessarily condoning - must accept the realities of the art world and the business side of things. The politics, the bullshit, the fact that your art means nothing if no one ever sees it and to get it seen you're going to have to make a few compromises.. until you're super famous and then fuck all you can do whatever you want. see: Picasso (seriously his later crap is CRAP, but he's picasso so it's in a museum.)

 

You may see artists who shout "I make art for me!" "No one tells me what my art means!" yadda yadda... and that's because the business of television and publication go for the salacious. 99% of working artists, what you should strive to be, are far more even keeled and accept the realities of the art world. The ones shouting that "you don't GET my art!" are seen as being immature. 

 

If you're doing it just for you.. well, fine, but dont try to force it on other people. 

 

If you're doing it to make a statement, understand that it means nothing if there is no audience or that they don't understand or refuse to listen to what you're saying. 

Edited December 5, 2013 by Loric

[Yellow Magnet]

If you consider a Post-Bac as a 

 

Thank you for the replying to this thread!

 

Um, You're correct, I do have room to grow.  I will always feel that way though.  I know i could be doing this for another forty years and still think I need improvement.

 

I am against post-bac's because they cost thousands of dollars and they are pretty insignificant. I feel like its a way a college gets money. That is my opinion though.  If i do not go to get a post-bac, then how will i grow with the help of strong professors? that is a problem i'd face if i didnt do it.

 

Also what made you recommend nude sketch formal studies? I don't have many paintings that focus on the body, and the ones that do are purposefully distorted and I am also not focused on naturalistic body forms.  Do you think, perhaps it is not deliberate looking enough? or is it about painting like contours or details.

Thank you again~

 

Post-bac programs can be considered a type of investment, because if you consider how much an MFA program will cost you... a decent post-bac can help you get fellowships to save you money.   However, if you still want to grow without a post-bac museum programs and art centers also have classes.  Post-bac programs are geared towards individuals who did not not get an undergraduate degree in fine arts and want to gain the experience that they missed and put themselves at more competitive level.  

 

The reason i recommended nude sketch formal studies is that it provides the basis and ground to develop the understanding of the body before distortion. Your images of the body convey a lack of experience because of your rendering of form and the choices of positions, regardless of how you wanted to distort them.  I can also immediately tell the differences in works that have used photographic references.  Most of the compositions are center weighted, relying too much on contour lines, and enlarged eyes are done in a way that reference more of an anime style than the more notable illustrators.  If in fact you are going for drawing in the sense of the illustration vein, then you should be pushing yourself more with handing of your materials, experimenting with compositions, developing a background, building context into the image. Cohesiveness like Kafralal said is very important. At this point if i were opening up your images I would have thought that it was a prospective undergraduate application. You also need better documentation of your work. 

 

If these comments seem harsh or you don't want to believe me because I am primarily a sculptor-- Know that I was a dual degree student in a printmaking/painting department on top of my sculpture degree.   And I am also telling you all this from the prospective of an artist whose current job is to teach students to apply to art programs across the nation, helping them into some of the toughest programs with scholarships. I have years of experience in undergraduate and graduate admissions with an understanding of the eyes that are looking at applicant portfolios and what the caliber of work you are up against when submitting an application. 

[Moonhart44]

This is where your age is showing...

 

You don't get to tell people what your art "is." You have an audience, they experience your art, and if you're lucky they'll buy it or see value in it and put it in museums - and then the message you're trying to communicate gets out to the public. You might make a difference, you might facilitate change, you might be important in the big scheme.

 

You cultivate an audience, but you do not tell them what to think of anything. Your work stands alone and you can't be there next to it.

 

How would you measure success? How happy you are producing art..? Well, then that's just masturbation and much like the real thing, you don't share it with other people.  If you want to be taken seriously you have to have goals that - while not necessarily condoning - must accept the realities of the art world and the business side of things. The politics, the bullshit, the fact that your art means nothing if no one ever sees it and to get it seen you're going to have to make a few compromises.. until you're super famous and then fuck all you can do whatever you want. see: Picasso (seriously his later crap is CRAP, but he's picasso so it's in a museum.)

 

You may see artists who shout "I make art for me!" "No one tells me what my art means!" yadda yadda... and that's because the business of television and publication go for the salacious. 99% of working artists, what you should strive to be, are far more even keeled and accept the realities of the art world. The ones shouting that "you don't GET my art!" are seen as being immature. 

 

If you're doing it just for you.. well, fine, but dont try to force it on other people. 

 

If you're doing it to make a statement, understand that it means nothing if there is no audience or that they don't understand or refuse to listen to what you're saying. 

Okay. thank you for explaining it. i didnt understand what the previous person meant by that.  I guess it shows my naiveté.

Thanks for taking the time to advise me. 

[Moonhart44]

If you consider a Post-Bac as a 

 

 

Post-bac programs can be considered a type of investment, because if you consider how much an MFA program will cost you... a decent post-bac can help you get fellowships to save you money.   However, if you still want to grow without a post-bac museum programs and art centers also have classes.  Post-bac programs are geared towards individuals who did not not get an undergraduate degree in fine arts and want to gain the experience that they missed and put themselves at more competitive level.  

 

The reason i recommended nude sketch formal studies is that it provides the basis and ground to develop the understanding of the body before distortion. Your images of the body convey a lack of experience because of your rendering of form and the choices of positions, regardless of how you wanted to distort them.  I can also immediately tell the differences in works that have used photographic references.  Most of the compositions are center weighted, relying too much on contour lines, and enlarged eyes are done in a way that reference more of an anime style than the more notable illustrators.  If in fact you are going for drawing in the sense of the illustration vein, then you should be pushing yourself more with handing of your materials, experimenting with compositions, developing a background, building context into the image. Cohesiveness like Kafralal said is very important. At this point if i were opening up your images I would have thought that it was a prospective undergraduate application. You also need better documentation of your work. 

 

If these comments seem harsh or you don't want to believe me because I am primarily a sculptor-- Know that I was a dual degree student in a printmaking/painting department on top of my sculpture degree.   And I am also telling you all this from the prospective of an artist whose current job is to teach students to apply to art programs across the nation, helping them into some of the toughest programs with scholarships. I have years of experience in undergraduate and graduate admissions with an understanding of the eyes that are looking at applicant portfolios and what the caliber of work you are up against when submitting an application. 

Okay I see what you mean about taking nude drawing classes.  I have drawn several nude people, but I guess not enough.  

I do not find your insight offensive.  It is constructive!

[pearspears]

The main reason most people wait to apply is because you need to have 20 pieces of strong, cohesive work with which to apply. If you are 21, all you have to apply with are your school assignments, which of course will not be cohesive, because each assignment was different, and probably not strong, because it would have been your first time using that medium probably.

 

Most artwork takes a long time to do. This puts most applicants in their late twenties when they apply. There are threads on here listing average ages, and most of them are around 28. This is of course including the odd very young student and the odd mid life one. If you throw out the outliers, I'd bet the mean is closer to 30 or 31.

 

Don't worry- I really sweated the age thing too, and I realize now that it was stupid. I might be over 30 even when I start because I've realized I'd rather travel than be in school again, and honestly I'm not really worried about it.

 

I think in a way you might actually suffer from starting too soon. I had a friend that went straight through to graduate school because she had a full scholarship, which is great. But when I see her work now versus what she did in undergrad, I don't see much of a difference. Plus it put her at a disadvantage, being so young, for jobs, whether that is legal or not. Most people want mature artists teaching their adjunct classes. Now I'm not talking TOO old- but an applicant with an MFA from say Indiana Bloomington that is 31 will probably be hired over a 25 year old. They are afraid students will not respect a very young instructor (and 25 is one year removed from the 16-24 age bracket denominating "youth"). So at 25 you are one year away from being lumped in statistically with a group that includes teenagers.  I'm not saying this is right or fair but I have contacts on boards at universities, and this is a legitimate thing.

 

Another factor to consider is the economy. It's not getting any better, but if it were, dragging it out as long as possible buys you time to hope that the market you enter isn't like it is now.

[Erpnope]

waiting doesn't hurt, it's also something you can only do once so. why not just wait?

[Loric]

About the 20 pieces...

 

I was straight up told by the head of graduate admissions at an art school that they give you "20 slots" but have no desire to see anything that's not your best work. They're happy with 10 or even less if that's what it takes, because they grade everything as a whole and any weak piece will bring down your score.

 

And yes, they've no desire to see "experimenting with this.." or "trying out that.." - just what you're good at and want to continue doing. Don't try to show them range, they'll have none of it - unless you're universally good at everything.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Loric

[bannedinbc]

About the 20 pieces...

 

I was straight up told by the head of graduate admissions at an art school that they give you "20 slots" but have no desire to see anything that's not your best work. They're happy with 10 or even less if that's what it takes, because they grade everything as a whole and any weak piece will bring down your score.

 

And yes, they've no desire to see "experimenting with this.." or "trying out that.." - just what you're good at and want to continue doing. Don't try to show them range, they'll have none of it - unless you're universally good at everything.

 

I'm sure its good advice to not include subpar work just to meet some number of images, but I think that if someone has a hard time putting together even 10 solid images, they might not be ready for grad school. 

 

And I don't think that experimentation is necessarily undesirable. Maybe not everyone should try to pull it off in the portfolio, but I do think it can have a place if you still can show that you have a direction and aren't all over the map, and like you say, if the quality is high. If you're good at something, and you just intend to keep doing exactly what you already know you're good at, what can a school really offer you? Artists and their practices evolve. In my opinion it would get terribly boring to just keep doing what you're already good at. There's plenty of time in life to settle into a groove. School is the time to do weird and exciting stuff (if you're into that). 

[Loric]

I'm sure its good advice to not include subpar work just to meet some number of images, but I think that if someone has a hard time putting together even 10 solid images, they might not be ready for grad school. 

 

And I don't think that experimentation is necessarily undesirable. Maybe not everyone should try to pull it off in the portfolio, but I do think it can have a place if you still can show that you have a direction and aren't all over the map, and like you say, if the quality is high. If you're good at something, and you just intend to keep doing exactly what you already know you're good at, what can a school really offer you? Artists and their practices evolve. In my opinion it would get terribly boring to just keep doing what you're already good at. There's plenty of time in life to settle into a groove. School is the time to do weird and exciting stuff (if you're into that). 

 

Not every medium lends itself to 10+ good pieces in so many years.. a very qualified sculptor may only have a handful at best, but because they worked in a medium that is massively time consuming. Would you look down on a young applicant with an MFA who managed to put together something like a "Balloon Dog" http://www.fadwebsite.com/wp-content/uploads/jeff-koons-balloon-dog-yellow.jpg but very little else because of their age and how time consuming such a project would be..?

 

If you're capable of quality, you're capable of quality. Having a large library of work will just come with time.

 

And i'm not being facetious - I went to school with undergrads who by the end of their studies had large corporate funded installation sculpture pieces. The rest of their portfolio wasn't as good as those single well funded projects. They filled in a little with other smaller work they paid for out of their own pocket, but the big well funded project was where it was proven that they could do really great work if given the right resources.

[bannedinbc]

Yes, when I posted that I was going to add the caveat of unless the work is something like time consuming sculpture or year long social practice projects or hour long videos..etc. but I thought it would go without saying. whoops. Also, the reason I said "images" not "pieces"

[Loric]

Yes, when I posted that I was going to add the caveat of unless the work is something like time consuming sculpture or year long social practice projects or hour long videos..etc. but I thought it would go without saying. whoops. Also, the reason I said "images" not "pieces"

 

Lol, it's ok - in the portfolio they're all technically "images." My work has been in theatre and so I've got photos of staged productions, which obviously aren't the same as a painting.. but you get 20 "slides" and that's it. Not every emphasis would even allow my work to find it's way into the portfolio.. and i was encouraged to include my writing - both "formal" papers on theaterical design and actual scripts I've written in my portfolio to fill slots.

 

It is going to depend heavily on the emphasis and school, but 20 allowed slots is the baseline apparently.

[pearspears]

"I was straight up told by the head of graduate admissions at an art school that they give you "20 slots" but have no desire to see anything that's not your best work. They're happy with 10 or even less if that's what it takes, because they grade everything as a whole and any weak piece will bring down your score"

 

I agree that you should not have 20 pieces if 5 of those pieces are bad, but if you think it doesn't look....well, weak to have 15 strong pieces versus 18 strong pieces, you are wrong. 3 pieces may not seem like a big deal to you, but those 3 pieces could mean a slot in a program you want when another applicant has a portfolio that is equally as strong, but with more pieces. They will look more ambitious.

[Loric]

"I was straight up told by the head of graduate admissions at an art school that they give you "20 slots" but have no desire to see anything that's not your best work. They're happy with 10 or even less if that's what it takes, because they grade everything as a whole and any weak piece will bring down your score"

 

I agree that you should not have 20 pieces if 5 of those pieces are bad, but if you think it doesn't look....well, weak to have 15 strong pieces versus 18 strong pieces, you are wrong. 3 pieces may not seem like a big deal to you, but those 3 pieces could mean a slot in a program you want when another applicant has a portfolio that is equally as strong, but with more pieces. They will look more ambitious.

 

If those 3 pieces are strong.

 

I maxed out my twenty, so i'm just conveying what the head of admissions straight up said to me when i bumped into him at a mixer (almost spilled my drink on him.)

[herki]

I'm 23 years old and the baby of my department in graduate school, but I've always felt a little bit more developed than others my age with regards to my practice. I was lucky enough to find what really worked for me in the beginning of my freshman year of undergrad, and so I had a couple extra years to refine it over people who didn't figure that stuff out until they were juniors/seniors.

 

The average age at my grad school is 27/28 years old. There are fewer people significantly over that average age who pull it up, but I'd venture to guess that most people are about 25-27. (Of the 17 students, there's a mid-40, a couple mid-30s, some late-20s, and some mid-20s down to me.)  

 

I remember in undergrad, there was a classmate who was part of an accelerated pre-college program that eventually enabled her to graduate college at age 17. She might have been academically at the level of a college graduate, but rushing though college in 3 years at such a young age meant that her work was underdeveloped conceptually and emotionally, and showed it at times. I used to wonder what she was in a rush for. She's now 20 and engaged.

If it seems that you could benefit from taking a year or so doing a post-bacc. or even just taking some time doing non-school-related art, then do so! You've got a key advantage over many people in their mid-30s, and that's time. You've got more time before you have to really worry about being a homeowner, starting a family, or whatever else people older than you might have to deal with. Take advantage of that.

[mlk]

to the original poster:

 

you are not ready for an MFA program. you may not even be ready for a post-bac program.
the fact that there are still pencil drawings copied from photographs will get you rejected at any school worth going to.
any school that will accept you, at this point, just wants your money and is not worth your time.
this may sound harsh and cruel but it is the truth.

 

Frankly, it is to early to tell what your art will even be like. Draw and paint for at least two more years. take some more art classes. you do not need to take figure drawing classes. just take regular painting classes and keep on making work and keep on trying to make your work better. decide if you want to be a painter or an illustrator, as the fantasy sci fi stuff has the potential to be interesting but will not be received well by any fine arts MFA program. You need to look at more good drawing and painting. You do not need to copy it but you need take in as much as you can as you only minored in art and probably have been exposed to an inadequate amount of art history.
 

go look at the students' work at the schools you are interested in and see what it looks like. you do not need to copy that of course but you will see that you lack the level of finish and cohesiveness that admissions committees want.

Everyone else here is being too nice to you and ultimately deluding you more than helping you. Save the money you will lose applying to grad programs this year and put it towards art materials and a fee for art classes.

if you work hard and remain self-critical you will achieve your goals. your work has a seed of something interesting - sci fi combined with african american images - but right now you are not ready for an MFA. note - this does not make you any less of an artist. it is just about timing.

 

best of luck

[m-ttl]

to the original poster:

 

you are not ready for an MFA program. you may not even be ready for a post-bac program.

the fact that there are still pencil drawings copied from photographs will get you rejected at any school worth going to.

any school that will accept you, at this point, just wants your money and is not worth your time.

this may sound harsh and cruel but it is the truth.

 

Frankly, it is to early to tell what your art will even be like. Draw and paint for at least two more years. take some more art classes. you do not need to take figure drawing classes. just take regular painting classes and keep on making work and keep on trying to make your work better. decide if you want to be a painter or an illustrator, as the fantasy sci fi stuff has the potential to be interesting but will not be received well by any fine arts MFA program. You need to look at more good drawing and painting. You do not need to copy it but you need take in as much as you can as you only minored in art and probably have been exposed to an inadequate amount of art history.

 

I agree with what was said here, but if you intend to draw figures, you need to take figure drawing courses. The weaknesses in anatomy are the easiest thing to spot and also the most glaring when people critically view figures. Without a strong basis in figural drawing, any figures you compose will be weaker than they could be. I have yet to meet an artist who did not improve having taken advanced figure drawing classes, or one who regret taking them. 

 

There are good ideas here, but they won't reach their fullest level without composition, anatomy, etc. You can't break the rules before you've mastered them. Just look up Picasso's classic academy-style sketch works. This:

 

 

came long before this:

 

 

I think your art clearly displays a desire to work with figures, and thus advise you take more classes to perfect your formal abilities. 

[Moonhart44]

to the original poster:

 

you are not ready for an MFA program. you may not even be ready for a post-bac program.

the fact that there are still pencil drawings copied from photographs will get you rejected at any school worth going to.

any school that will accept you, at this point, just wants your money and is not worth your time.

this may sound harsh and cruel but it is the truth.

 

Frankly, it is to early to tell what your art will even be like. Draw and paint for at least two more years. take some more art classes. you do not need to take figure drawing classes. just take regular painting classes and keep on making work and keep on trying to make your work better. decide if you want to be a painter or an illustrator, as the fantasy sci fi stuff has the potential to be interesting but will not be received well by any fine arts MFA program. You need to look at more good drawing and painting. You do not need to copy it but you need take in as much as you can as you only minored in art and probably have been exposed to an inadequate amount of art history.

 

go look at the students' work at the schools you are interested in and see what it looks like. you do not need to copy that of course but you will see that you lack the level of finish and cohesiveness that admissions committees want.

Everyone else here is being too nice to you and ultimately deluding you more than helping you. Save the money you will lose applying to grad programs this year and put it towards art materials and a fee for art classes.

if you work hard and remain self-critical you will achieve your goals. your work has a seed of something interesting - sci fi combined with african american images - but right now you are not ready for an MFA. note - this does not make you any less of an artist. it is just about timing.

 

best of luck

this is a late reply, but I am a bit confused on what you mean by

"still pencil drawings copied from photographs will get you rejected at any school worth going to"

Are you saying that I found photographs and copied the image? That's what it sounds like to me but I am not sure.

Can you please elaborate on this?

Also   I do not study anything on the matter of Black people. How did you get that Idea? I am asking because no one has ever told me of that interpretation

[mlk]

that is what I am saying. if you look at the rutgers visual arts application page, for example, they ask high school applicants not to submit drawings taken from photographs. if they expect that from 18 year olds then it goes without saying that it is unacceptable in an MFA application portfolio.

people are rightfully very suspicious of work that looks like it was copied from a photograph. there are artists who work from photographs, like Damien Loeb, Marilyn Minter, Will Cotton, Jeff Koons, (all of whom are not generally regarded as very good artists) and some drawers - Banks Violette, DL Alvarez - but all of these artists have perfect technique.

[Loric]

Wow.. you just rattled off names and said they were not seen as very good but also had perfect technique..

 

Wow.

[douchamp]

Saying such and such is a not considered a great art but has perfect technique isn't contradictory. How many technically well executed Michael Bay films have been pure stinkers? Especially in fine arts, technical execution tend to factor less and less in contemporary painting (at least on the east coast) than other aspects.

 

What has been said about copying from photographs is 100% true. And are some images that indicate a significant use of photographic references.

 

On the other hand, I'm certain the use of "African American" Imagery is more incidental/circumstantial than anything significant.

 

Lastly, I agree with suggestions for more focused undergraduate painting courses. I also suggest courses in contemporary art/cultural theory - and an assortment of art historical courses ranging Ancient art, the rennaissance, 17th to 19th century european art, East Asian Art, constructivism, surrealism/dadaism, architecture, abstract expressionism/other modes of abstract painting, minimalism, and post wwII art/art produced within the last few decades of the 20th century.