how do you feel about athletes being forced to go to school?

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

I was talking to a friend of mine the other day who is a sophomore at a Pac-12 university. She's taking some meaningless English 101 lecture hall class and she's been placed in a group with another girl and two guys on the football team. The class breaks up into 4-person groups each class to discuss assigned articles and review/critique each other's writing. Not surprisingly, the two football players don't do anything. They just sit there on their phone and say "I don't know" when the two girls ask them for their input. Actually, one of the guys is a little more respectful and at least tries to pretend like he cares. 

Anyway, so I was thinking about this and it got me thinking about sports in America, mainly football and basketball. People are forced to go to school in order to play sports. They're forced to maintain certain grades in order to play on their high school team, and they're forced to actually graduate from high school. Then they're forced to maintain a certain GPA in college in order to stay eligible to play, and they're forced to attend at least two years of college. 

I know the whole "It's good to have a degree to fall back on" argument, but let's be real. For one, they're not forced to finish their degree so that argument is invalid. Secondly, someone shouldn't be forced to earn a degree as a fallback plan. I agree that the smart thing to do is to get a degree because there are no guarantees that you'll become a rich professional. But just because it's smart to get a degree, doesn't mean it should be mandatory. 

As an American, you have the right to earn any kind of living you want. You're only required to stay in school until you're 16. There are so many jobs and skills/sports/hobbies that don't require you to be in school. For example, you don't need school to be a comedian, movie star, musician, pro skateboarder, surfer, snowboarder, ultimate fighter, martial artist, video game designer, businessman, entrepreneur or almost any other thing. 

I just think it's unjust that football and basketball players are forced to go to school. I mean you don't "have to" but let's be real. Colleges recruit big time high school players, and the pros draft big time college players. There's no way around it. Whether or not it's smart to attend college I don't think it's right to force people. 

What are your thoughts?

Edited February 14, 2014 by Gnome Chomsky

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Sorry for the blue background. I copy/pasted this from a football forum that I'm a member of. I think it would be interesting to pose here as well. 

[astaroth27]

It seems better to recruit players for college teams without forcing them to attend and earn a degree if they are not interested. If they are spending most of their time training or playing they only have time to get bullshit communications degrees anyway. I doubt this will ever change though.

[FestivusMiracle]

As someone who has attended schools where football/sports are a huge deal, I think it's the students who care that suffer more than the athletes who don't do shit. Academics are marginalized at the expense of athletic events, along with classes being dumbed down. Need to study on the day of a big game? You're not gonna do it in the library, because it'll be closed. Meanwhile, athletes are completely pampered with forgiving teachers and free 'tutors' who do their homework for them. I say all this despite being a huge college football fan. I just find it hard to find sympathy for apathetic college athletes.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

I agree. And I feel like they just become a burden on other students (such as in the case I mentioned with my friend). They have no interest in the material, and they didn't do any work or preparation. Now, those two girls are forced to work double for the entire semester. I can't really blame the two guys though. They don't want to be there. It's hard enough to care about a meaningless English 101 class when you actually want a degree. 

 

And it's not fair to athletes who actually care about school. You can't just make it so that all athletes get thrown into the same class so that they don't become a burden on non-athlete students, because you'll have student athletes who actually want to get challenged. And when you have a class with all student athletes (especially all football or basketball players) it usually raises suspicion and damages the integrity of the university (see UNC's African American degree). 

 

Edit: this was in response to astaroth27

Edited February 14, 2014 by Gnome Chomsky

[ginagirl]

I'm curious what you suggest be done about it then? Only let real student-athletes play at the collegiate level? (not attacking you, I find this interesting)

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

As someone who has attended schools where football/sports are a huge deal, I think it's the students who care that suffer more than the athletes who don't do shit. Academics are marginalized at the expense of athletic events, along with classes being dumbed down. Need to study on the day of a big game? You're not gonna do it in the library, because it'll be closed. Meanwhile, athletes are completely pampered with forgiving teachers and free 'tutors' who do their homework for them. I say all this despite being a huge college football fan. I just find it hard to find sympathy for apathetic college athletes.

Sure, but how can you blame the apathetic athletes? They don't want to be there. Also, they don't get paid to be there. Sure, they get a free ride to a great university, but do you think they really give a shit about that? They just want to play football and earn a career. By being forced to play 2 years at the collegiate level, they're risking permanently injuring themselves before they could ever earn a living. Everyone has a right to earn a living. These people have been building their craft for their entire lives, so they deserve to be compensated for it. Free tuition doesn't mean shit to most these athletes. They couldn't care less about Stanford's reputation. 

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

I'm curious what you suggest be done about it then? Only let real student-athletes play at the collegiate level? (not attacking you, I find this interesting)

I don't know. Like I said, there are athletes who care about getting an education. They shouldn't be punished. I don't think there is a solution. You can either make it so that athletes are employees of universities but not students, but then the athletes who want to earn a degree would suffer. Or you could keep it the way it is, but then the athletes who don't want degrees are forced to waste their time in classrooms and become burdens on their fellow classmates. 

 

An idea I thought of is possibly paying athletes and allowing them to take a pay deduction if they want to attend classes (to make up for the cost of tuition). But not all schools would be able to pay athletes. Schools that make hundreds of millions of dollars off their teams could, like Texas, Alabama, USC, Notre Dame, etc, but smaller schools couldn't. 

Edited February 14, 2014 by Gnome Chomsky

[glm]

What would this person suggest to cure this problem? Getting rid of athletic programs? Most college athletes are great students that don't go pro.

 

The reality is that college sports, especially football, is popular. Football and basketball bring $$$$ to the institution, so what concern is it of yours that some athletes are floating by on fluffy coursework funded by NCAA money? I agree: It is always irritating to be burdened by apathetic students, but come on. Apathetic students come from anywhere, all walks of life. I'm more curious as to how other students with no apparent interests or skills snuck their way into school. 

[FestivusMiracle]

Sure, but how can you blame the apathetic athletes? They don't want to be there. Also, they don't get paid to be there. Sure, they get a free ride to a great university, but do you think they really give a shit about that? They just want to play football and earn a career. By being forced to play 2 years at the collegiate level, they're risking permanently injuring themselves before they could ever earn a living. Everyone has a right to earn a living. These people have been building their craft for their entire lives, so they deserve to be compensated for it. Free tuition doesn't mean shit to most these athletes. They couldn't care less about Stanford's reputation.

I'm not blaming them, I just don't feel sorry for them. Your comment pretty much doesn't account for the fact that most college athletes will never play at the professional level and you also assume that players who will play pro are already at the pro level straight out of high school, which is almost always false in football. College football provides a sort of training/improvement area where players who were considered only decent can go prove themselves and earn their way onto a pro team. Without college football, many would just wind up with regular jobs because they didn't receive the coaching necessary to make it at the pro level. College football is beneficial to the majority of its athletes.

[ginagirl]

In some ways I think this sense of apathy that can pervade collegiate athletics is someone perpetuated by the athletes themselves. Most people have the idea that a person can only be an athlete or an academic. Positive role models within the team would help them not be ashamed of both athletic and academic success, which I think is the case for some.

[pears]

As someone who has attended schools where football/sports are a huge deal, I think it's the students who care that suffer more than the athletes who don't do shit. Academics are marginalized at the expense of athletic events, along with classes being dumbed down. Need to study on the day of a big game? You're not gonna do it in the library, because it'll be closed. Meanwhile, athletes are completely pampered with forgiving teachers and free 'tutors' who do their homework for them. I say all this despite being a huge college football fan. I just find it hard to find sympathy for apathetic college athletes.

 

I agree. My grad program is at a big football school, but the team's golden years are in the rearview, and the players are notorious for their.. questionable interpersonal behavior. In the same week that we received campus-wide emails about how enrollment is down which means that strategic plans are being implemented to reduce spending (no mention of cutting the salaries of overpaid higher-ups, of course), the school celebrated newly-committed high school football players who will likely be receiving scholarships to attend. Our TAs are among the lowest paid in the entire nation, yet we can somehow afford to pay dozens of students $10/hr or more to be "mentors" and "tutors" for student-athletes. I find it disgusting how much these students are coddled and treated with special consideration, even the ones charged with very serious crimes, while teaching students are barely paid enough to scrape by — if they even receive any of the competitive funding! — and academic posts are left abandoned. I grew up watching and loving college and professional football, and I still do, but this school's priorities are all in the wrong places.

 

Anyway, personal bitter rant aside, it bothers me that athletes are expected to attend a university, if only for one year, in order to advance their athletic career. I'd rather see them save time and money for all parties involved and immediately go into the draft. Obviously, it's beneficial to have relatively young athletes play with and against potential future competitors and teammates, especially when they're all consolidated into college teams that play each other on a regular basis... but it would also be beneficial to test your mettle against seasoned professionals, and immerse yourself in the most skilled level of play ASAP. Plus, if you do end up actually caring about school and really wanting to pursue a degree, you have an enormous salary to make use of for tuition in the future. I mostly think of college athletics as a money maker for respective institutions, but a toxic one, in that the revenue is rarely used to actually enhance anything besides athletic programs and higher-ups' salaries.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

What would this person suggest to cure this problem? Getting rid of athletic programs? Most college athletes are great students that don't go pro.

 

The reality is that college sports, especially football, is popular. Football and basketball bring $$$$ to the institution, so what concern is it of yours that some athletes are floating by on fluffy coursework funded by NCAA money? I agree: It is always irritating to be burdened by apathetic students, but come on. Apathetic students come from anywhere, all walks of life. I'm more curious as to how other students with no apparent interests or skills snuck their way into school. 

My issue is more of being forced to go to college. The majority of college freshmen have been pressured by their parents, friends and family to attend college because they grew up thinking that is what you're supposed to do after high school. If a college wants to profit off of student athletes in order to generate hundreds of millions of dollars, they should hire these athletes as employees and give them the option to also be a student if they have the proper high school/junior college grades. A kid with a talent comes to University of Alabama to make Nick Saban a millionaire and he gets repaid by eating Ramen Noodles every night and being forced to take English 101? 

 

I'm not blaming them, I just don't feel sorry for them. Your comment pretty much doesn't account for the fact that most college athletes will never play at the professional level and you also assume that players who will play pro are already at the pro level straight out of high school, which is almost always false in football. College football provides a sort of training/improvement area where players who were considered only decent can go prove themselves and earn their way onto a pro team. Without college football, many would just wind up with regular jobs because they didn't receive the coaching necessary to make it at the pro level. College football is beneficial to the majority of its athletes.

And all of the other skills/hobbies I mentioned in my original post are not guaranteed either. That's part of life. You have a skill, you want to make money from it, you have to take a risk. Comedians, actors, musicians, skateboarders, ultimate fighters, computer hackers, etc all have to deal with it. Not all of them will become the next big star. But they aren't forced to do something they don't want to. 

 

In some ways I think this sense of apathy that can pervade collegiate athletics is someone perpetuated by the athletes themselves. Most people have the idea that a person can only be an athlete or an academic. Positive role models within the team would help them not be ashamed of both athletic and academic success, which I think is the case for some.

I agree that there are many athletes who are students first. I would argue that the majority of the athletes who make their universities billion dollar industries are not these students. The majority of sports teams for a university are not money-makers. If someone wants to earn an athletic scholarship via their swimming ability in order to get an education, good for them. But the kid with a million dollar jump shot who has no interest in school who is making the powers that be rich should not be forced to do anything. He should be given every opportunity to fall on his face like his fellow comedians, actors, musicians, skateboarders and ultimate fighters. 

 

My point is, schools have organizations and teams. Middle schools have these, high schools have these, and colleges have these. However, odds are if you're not a world star athletic and you attend University of Alabama, you're not just gonna be able to walk onto the football team because you think it'll be a fun way to spend your weekends. That might be how it is in high school but not at the college level. And that's because the people on these teams at major universities are world class athletes who deserve to be paid for their talents like any other world class talent (comedy, movies, X-games, etc). You're fooling yourself if you think these people are just students like you. They're superstar athletes forced to sit in a classroom and live on a budget. But at least they get free tuition. 

[FestivusMiracle]

Nobody is 'forcing' anyone to do anything, with the exception of the <1% who are at pro level out of high school. The rest get free training that wouldn't be available if only professional teams were involved. College gives them a chance to do what they love. In return, they have to attend class every once in a while. Most athletes in other sports consider the free ride they get as a good thing, instead of some obligation they have to meet. I get your point that it sucks that there are athletes who clearly shouldn't be in school, but I don't really know how you get around that problem and I think if anyone benefits from the situation it is the 99% of athletes who don't go pro and receive a diploma.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

I just want to add one more thing: Lots of student athletes are student-first, and that's great. But they're student-first because they play sports that don't make money. The athletes I'm talking about are the ones who play on teams that actually make their school mainly (football and basketball). The majority of university sports probably cost more money than they earn, but the billion dollar football team makes up for that. That's why I view those student athletes (the football players) differently from the other student athletes (the lacrosse and swim teams). 

[FestivusMiracle]

I haven't thought about it a lot, but maybe the reason pro football teams don't allow kids into the draft right away is that college subsidizes the cost of their player development.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

Nobody is 'forcing' anyone to do anything, with the exception of the <1% who are at pro level out of high school. The rest get free training that wouldn't be available if only professional teams were involved. College gives them a chance to do what they love. In return, they have to attend class every once in a while. Most athletes in other sports consider the free ride they get as a good thing, instead of some obligation they have to meet. I get your point that it sucks that there are athletes who clearly shouldn't be in school, but I don't really know how you get around that problem and I think if anyone benefits from the situation it is the 99% of athletes who don't go pro and receive a diploma.

Sure, but lots of those players aren't on scholarships. Schools only get a limited amount of scholarships. I'd say the majority go to players who at least have a shot to get drafted. And I'd also say the majority of them would rather not go to class. The players on the team who have no shot at a pro career are most likely paying for school the same way all of us are. 

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

I haven't thought about it a lot, but maybe the reason pro football teams don't allow kids into the draft right away is that college subsidizes the cost of their player development.

That's definitely true. I'd say that's 99% of it.  

 

And I would say this proves my point even more. These kids are getting cheated. They're good enough to make money, but the pro teams would rather them develop a few years. It's a way of getting free player development. The colleges get rich and the pros get rich, but the college players are broke and taking classes they don't want to be in. 

Edited February 14, 2014 by Gnome Chomsky

[Human_]

The fact is that they are attending an academic institution and have to be enrolled in order to participate in sports. They are "student athletes" not "athletes". You should note that basketball players do not have to go to college in order to enter the NBA draft. Some players go straight to the developmental league and get into the NBA through that path. College is not necessary to go pro, so it is completely the choice of the athlete. No one is "forcing" them to go to school.

 

If you think it's unjust that they have to attend class (which I disagree with), what do you think about the fact that they are unpaid? I understand the reasoning behind the rule, but I think it's even more ridiculous that a private company, like EA Sports, can make billions in sales on their video games without giving a dime to the players.

[FestivusMiracle]

The ones that are good enough to go pro right away, i agree, maybe they are in effect forced to go to school. But the other ones benefit a ton from school, because otherwise they wouldn't have a shot in hell at making it. So if you ditch college football, only the obvious 'talent' gets picked. There would be no Jerry Rice(s), if that were the case. There is no way to separate the academics from college football, because...well it just wouldn't make sense. Therefore the 99% benefit tremendously from the opportunity to play college ball.

[CageFree]

I haven't thought about it a lot, but maybe the reason pro football teams don't allow kids into the draft right away is that college subsidizes the cost of their player development.

 

Bingo!

[FestivusMiracle]

Bingo!

You know, it seems kinda obvious now, but I can't recall anyone ever bringing this point up. Everyone blames college football for not paying players, but I never hear anyone arguing that the NFL should remove its barriers to entry.

[Guest Gnome Chomsky]

You know, it seems kinda obvious now, but I can't recall anyone ever bringing this point up. Everyone blames college football for not paying players, but I never hear anyone arguing that the NFL should remove its barriers to entry.

You've never heard of that? You must not follow football. People fight it all the time. Maurice Clarrett from Ohio State fought it not too long ago. Also, there were a few articles from this past season about the top players in the country wishing they could go to the NFL straight from high school. There were even rumors last year that Jadaveon Clowney would sit out his sophomore year to ensure his health since he was predicted by everyone to be the #1 overall pick in the next year's draft.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Gnome Chomsky

[spellbanisher]

I just want to add one more thing: Lots of student athletes are student-first, and that's great. But they're student-first because they play sports that don't make money. The athletes I'm talking about are the ones who play on teams that actually make their school mainly (football and basketball). The majority of university sports probably cost more money than they earn, but the billion dollar football team makes up for that. That's why I view those student athletes (the football players) differently from the other student athletes (the lacrosse and swim teams).

This is an important distinction to make. The vast majority of athletic departments are net costs. Only 7 athletic departments from 2005 to 2009 were profitable. I don't know how many would be profitableif you stripped away all sports but football and basketball, but i would that with the exception of the perennial national championship contenders the majority would be net costs.

http://www.acenet.edu/news-room/Pages/Myth-College-Sports-Are-a-Cash-Cow2.aspx

[Boba felt]

I think it depends on the school and the program.  At my university there was a really big promotion of student athletes who won academic awards, especially academic all-americans on the football team.  They get way more recognition than just "winners".  I've also seen some players across many sports take easy classes so as to not distract from their main reason for going to school: sports.  Which is sad, but they're the ones who will have a really basic degree that won't land them a great job at the end.  Not many players make it up to the big leagues, not even to the minor leagues or any paying positions.  

 

Then again I've seen girls who are not in sports or any activities on campus sign up for easy classes in simpler degrees so they can party more.  It's not just athletes.  Too many people go to college on Mom and Dad's dime, and think of it as just a social right of passage.  They'd be better served and save money to go to a community college and work a  few years to figure out their goals in life, but no one likes to hear that.