2nd Thoughts/Cold Feet

[Graditude]

I can't... 

 

 

OK, no tea no shade? But you two have been on Grad Cafe for years now. Your perceptions may be slightly altered by hanging out with nervous applicants year after year. After year. I do see that you also give lots of good advice -- just a thought for consideration. I won´t put a smiley face, but this post comes from a place of love.

[ComeBackZinc]

That would be a relevant criticism, if this was just coming from me. But it isn't. Read Inside Higher Ed. Read the Chronicle. Read some of the most respected professors and administrators in the field. Read the words of people who have gone through the process and come out of it, both those with a job and those without. Not only are they pessimistic, they are actually more pessimistic and harsh than I am.

 

The numbers are what they are. Your attitude towards them is up to you. I have no interest in convincing someone to change their mind if they have made it up. I am also not interested in making people feel bad about this choice. I made this choice! I get it! I understand it completely. But the way that people freak out when they are told the plain truth about the numbers is not healthy. This is a fact: the large majority of the people who post here will never get a TT job. You can decide what you want to based on that information. Everybody here is a grownup and can make their own decisions. But please, don't deny that reality, or imagine that you will necessarily be the exception. Many people went through this process and thought they were the exception, and they ended up wrong. That's all I'm saying. Don't take it personally. It's just the numbers, that's all.

[Strong Flat White]

I attempted a long post. Forget it. What I want to say is that, I see a bunch of "no regret" style justifications for tough decisions, and that I very much relate to the "no regrets" mentality, and that I think it is the "no regret" types that might not be registering. We're more hardcore, I think, than we get credit for. We see "Are you ok with this or that dire circumstance?" and basically laugh, because let's face it, it is understated already, to the point that the "no regrets" people would actually be considering far worse outcomes. Who said McDonald's? Or better: Unemployment. Strong language for a family man who lives too near his father-in-law to not feel an acute sense of responsibility. Strong language for Strong. But I mean it - I speak for myself but I'm not alone. I'd let it drop but in this case we know our audience. It is a no regrets audience, this time. When we say no regrets, we mean zero regrets regardless of the most dire outcome. Adjuncting? Fuggetaboutit. Let's try ditch-digging. I'll dig you a ditch at minimum wage with a smile on my face if I can dig it with a certain no-regret knowledge in my back pocket. 

[Graditude]

Fiz, no les hagas caso. Camina hacia la luz.

[Strong Flat White]

Fiz, no les hagas caso. Camina hacia la luz.

 

Others speak Spanish, too.  What's funny is that I'm agreeing with you. My agreement is just less discriminatory than yours. And I'm ok with that.

[Strong Flat White]

OK, no tea no shade? But you two have been on Grad Cafe for years now. Your perceptions may be slightly altered by hanging out with nervous applicants year after year. After year. I do see that you also give lots of good advice -- just a thought for consideration. I won´t put a smiley face, but this post comes from a place of love.

 

I wonder how my symbolic value and satisfaction of the major accomplishment of which you speak and hope for is mitigated by my not fitting a certain demographic? And I wonder how we two are getting lumped together? ComeBackZinc and I do very little other than butt heads and disagree, then agree to disagree, and then do it some more. ComeBackZinc has gotten into a PhD program - I have not. ComeBackZinc dispenses advice. I react. The fact that I've been registered as a longtime user on this site has nothing to do with ComeBackZinc's longtime status. I use the boards to find information precisely so that I can become a better applicant in the future - I'm still on the other end of it from ComeBackZinc - and when I feel like it, to speak up when I think I have something to offer or when something has been misrepresented.  Bottom line, though, what I'm saying is what I take you to be saying: Go for it!  Follow dreams and destroy barriers. Nobody has been a bigger advocate of this than me. Nadie. Look it up. And if my perceptions are altered by nervous applicants, I think ComeBackZinc would agree that I'll be the better for it in the long run. At least there's that one thing.

[shortstack51]

...

 

To ignore the last page, I'll just say that it is totally scary but also exciting, so I completely get it. I'm getting married in 2015 and I'm basically dragging my fiancee to wherever I decide to go (who has been frantically applying to programs in her field--she's applying to MA, so she has thankfully, bless her, decided to put her plans on the back burner if it comes to it). It's scary though--all of our family is out here and we could end up across the country. Also how will we move the cats if we move far away??? and all of our stuff?? (it's the important questions in life)

 

It's hard when you've basically established a life for yourself already.

[school_of_caliban]

No flame. Your advice is reasonable and seems well-intentioned. You may be overlooking one thing: the enormous symbolic value and satisfaction of finishing third-level studies for people who don't fit the predominant middle-class Anglo background. I wasn't going to offer actual advice until I read your advice (which, again, makes excellent sense in some cases), but now I will: Fiz, hombre, go to grad school and kick ass. Even if you never get the tenure track job that people have been first-world whining about on here for months, you will certainly be able to use your skills to help others -- maybe by teaching at community college, maybe by writing. How can you know until you try? You're obviously smart and put-together enough to get a fellowship, so now I order you to make the most of it. Read a lot, write a lot, think a lot, make contacts and find a way to give back. No digo más, no vayan a pensar que soy un pesado.

 

I hit my like quota before the end of the first page. I totally agree with Graditude's advice. Seeing a close friend, a homie from the hood in Houston, Tx get his PhD and become a chingon, seeing my girl from immigrant parents and one of the worst neighboords in Dallas go to Berkeley and seeing her evolve into a badass, those experiences have had a profound effect on me, more than they will ever know. It wasn't even anything they said, but watching them go through the process made it seem like a real possibility for me. I'm the youngest in my generation by at least 5 years and was first to graduate from college in my family, and then I was the first to get my MA. I know that this pushed my sister and cousin to finish, even if it was out of pure embarrasment. Anyway, my point is that by doing this you're bringing a whole group of people along even if you don't realize it. I'm sure that you will go on to be that inspiration even if you don't pursue the TT positions.

 

Edit: Just wanted to add that I'm pulling for you too. Y gracias por el ánimo!

Edited February 20, 2014 by school_of_caliban

[purpleperson]

I hit my like quota before the end of the first page. I totally agree with Graditude's advice. Seeing a close friend, a homie from the hood in Houston, Tx get his PhD and become a chingon, seeing my girl from immigrant parents and one of the worst neighboords in Dallas go to Berkeley and seeing her evolve into a badass, those experiences have had a profound effect on me, more than they will ever know. It wasn't even anything they said, but watching them go through the process made it seem like a real possibility for me. I'm the youngest in my generation by at least 5 years and was first to graduate from college in my family, and then I was the first to get my MA. I know that this pushed my sister and cousin to finish, even if it was out of pure embarrasment. Anyway, my point is that by doing this you're bringing a whole group of people along even if you don't realize it. I'm sure that you will go on to be that inspiration even if you don't pursue the TT positions.

 

Edit: Just wanted to add that I'm pulling for you too. Y gracias por el ánimo!

 

Well said.  

 

Of the three LOR writers I had, one was the "warner" type, the "Do you know what you're getting into?  Do you know how bad the job market is?  Do you realize...?  Do you understand that.....?" variety.

 

The other two were just like, "Do it.  You're good.  You'll be great.  Do it."  

 

I'm not saying the former is ill-intentioned or means to do anything more than what they say they're trying to do -- that is, warn people and make sure they go into things with eyes wide open.

 

But I have to say, both hearing it directly in relation to myself and hearing others say it to other people -- the speaker always sounds bad.  I say...stop squashing people's dreams.   It's not so much the warning at all; it's the tone. 

 

It's 85% negative warning; 15% encouragement.

 

Need to shift that to 80% encouragement; 20% warning.

 

Most people know the deal with the market for English Ph.D.s.  There are only 70,000 articles on the Internet about it.  It's only the subject about 40,000 YouTube videos.  

 

Many people want to pursue their Ph.D. because they want the chance to earn the degree and be an active academic for a while, to write good things, to contribute to their field.  Not all are after a job.  

 

A Hispanic woman I know told me (while she was doing her Ph.D. between 2005 and 2010) that she didn't even want to teach college; she wanted to go back to teaching high school; she truly, genuinely has a thing for high school teaching (middle school and elementary are out; she specifically likes high school).  I asked her why she's doing her Ph.D. if she doesn't want to be a professor, and she pretty much said, "Well, I just wanted my Ph.D...."  

 

I know not all people are like her.   Many want jobs in universities and are only just tolerating that they very likely won't get one.  But probably just as many really don't care.  A lot really want the degree, the enrichment, the time as an academic, the time to contribute to scholarship, etc.  

 

p.s. I know a bunch of "ghetto," lol,  Hispanics doing their Master's degrees and Ph.D.s.  I live in Houston, too, where there is a huge Hispanic population.  Many of the "ghetto" students are the most popular among their cohort.  One dude is all tattooed up and is cursing all the time.  It's awesome, lol.  

Edited February 20, 2014 by purpleperson

[NowMoreSerious]

Ha! This brought a smile to my face, particularly cuz my memories are so alike. No one ever thought we'd get here. Hell, I barely even graduated high school--graduated with a 1.6 gpa. I spent four years in community college and almost dropped out. And now, Im here?? Pff. Idk about you, but the other matter is that I always feel as if I have to "prove" myself. All these pretentious douche bags walk around talking about how they went to such and such place and have done such and such and had a such and such gpa. They're people who have been groomed and bred to do this since a very young age--2nd and 3rd generation college students. Im a freaking 1st generation HIGH SCHOOL graduate, and BARELY! To sit at the graduate table, I feel as if I have to prove that I belong with them, that Im not trespassing. And it's not just academically; I'm not even of that culture. I'm ghetto as hell; my dialect is off compared to them. And that's part of the challenge of jumping into graduate school as well. When I was pipe dreaming it didnt matter. I didnt care. I was ready to have to constantly prove that I belonged and just didnt get in becuz Im Chicano. But now I mean.....what for?

 

Ayyyy the decisions. I swear dude Im dragging this shit out till April 15th. Anyways, I hope you do well and succeed in where you decide to go. Im pulling for you, buddy.

 

Fiz, I just want to say that I was in a very similar situation as you.  I'm the first and only person in my family to graduate high school conventionally.  I'm the first and only person in my family to attend college. My high school GPA was actually lower than yours and I am also a product of the community college system.  

 

Everything you are feeling, especially the cold feet, is normal for anybody.  The reason I asked you where you got in was because I was trying to figure out how far away from home and what type of city you were moving to.  That does make a difference. 

 

And let me be brutally honest.  You will sometimes feel like you got in because of your ethnicity.  People will think you got in because of your ethnicity.   But you don't have to prove shit to anybody except yourself.  The people who will question you do not have the intelligence to be self-reflexive and question the advantages that brought them to graduate school.  

 

This is something I have had to think about through most of my school and academic career, so feel free to private message me if you want to talk any of this stuff out in more detail and we can take it from there. 

[emily.rose]

I came across this article when researching about getting a PhD, which I thought gave a pretty interesting perspective: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/09/in-defense-of-the-humanities-phd-its-no-crazier-than-becoming-a-journalist/279863/

[Fiz]

Wow. First off, I just want to profusely thank each and everyone of you. Thank you for your anecdotes, your advice, and everything you had to say. To be honest, I haven't really thought much of many people on this forum, and a lot of times I found myself shaking my head in disbelief and thinking, "If these are the kind of people that are in graduate school, I'm not so sure I want to be there with them." But hearing from all of you is so gratifying and inspiring, and it infuses within me hope that not everyone in academia is a stuck up douche bag. Up votes for all you motherfuckers if I could do it!

 

Nowmoreserious, I want to apologize. I didn't even notice the question you asked me! I do everything here on my phone, and I am always taken to the most recent reply, which is when I saw Caliban's and started cracking up. I got into multiple places, so far, one of which is in Norther California. (I'm from SoCal.) But to be quite honest, if I am going to do this, I want to do it right. Yes, NorCal is nothing like having to relocate all the way to Urbana, but I find myself realizing that I don't even much like any of the programs here at home. Of all the Cali schools I could compete for, I really only could see myself at USC or UCSB, and USC rejected me, and I'm pretty sure UCSB did as well. I applied to UCSD cause it is only a few hours away, but I don't even like that school at all, not in the least bit. The ONLY reason I applied was....well, it is close to home. And I feel that if I just went somewhere becuz it was close and I hated the program, I'd just end up flunking out. I might as well not even go. There is no doubt in my mind, academically--even culturally--I would have the most chemistry and greatest chance to succeed with the dept. in Urbana-Champaign. They have gone out of their way to help me and get me in. The professor I'd want to work with hails from Santa Ana, 30 mins away from where I live, is a first generationer, I believe, and is so sympathetic towards me in regards to the hurdles I have faced to get to this point. I need someone to guide me, not just academically, but on how to adjust to academia after having been raised in its antithesis. And him having been in the same position I am now, well, there is no better place for me to go...and this is evident by the offer they have given me. No other school even comes close. If by God's grace I somehow got lucky and UCSB let me in, I could go. I'm okay about the program, but I wouldnt feel the same way about it as I do with Urbana, not even close. But it's home I guess, and I can tolerate it. I can't say that about Norcal. I see your attending UCLA! Gosh, if I was only smart enough for that school I wouldn't have these problems lol! I'll get in touch with you; I'm interested in hearing more about your journey and your decision to attend. Best of luck to you!

 

In terms of the whole tenure track thing and this ongoing debate about "warning" people, like others have said, who is to say people even want tenure track? I work in a freaking grocery store, and you know what, I love it man. I think it is fun as hell. Sure I dont make much, but I have never had anything before anyway, so I dont really see value in material wealth. I get to talk to people all day, and yea I deal with people who look down on me becuz apparently I "failed" and ended up working at this place. (Lol, if they only knew.) But no, I do it cuz I genuinely enjoy it. Call me crazy, if you will, but everyone has different values. Like those who have touched on this before, I want the phd for myself, not anyone else. And not in the hopes of getting a tenure track position. Im not sure if I even WANT that. Id happily finish the phd and go back to the grocery store. Im sure Id enjoy that more than working 65 hours a week, under a publish or perish burden. If I dont ever get tenure track...who cares? And this debate about academia "changing" one's perspective, idk, that is another question to be argued. I just seriously doubt that 6 years can reconfigure 25 year old values and mindsets and beliefs. Idk, it might be true for some, but I just dont see it happening to moi.

 

Graditude, into the light I go, carnal...maybe...I might get scared and run away lol.

 

I hope everyone here facing the same stresses and worries does well, whether they go or they dont. Best wishes to all of you. 

Edited February 20, 2014 by Fiz

[Fiz]

Fiz, you could always take a year off and next year apply to some programs that are closer to home. I know that technically you are supposed to pick schools based on fit, but you can't completely discount location. If being close to your significant other and your home will help you be happy, then I don't think you should force yourself to leave, if you can find a way to compromise. 

 I've thought about this, but I have already taken a year off before. And I ABSOLUTELY will not be one of those people who applies and applies and applies year after year. I told myself I'd give myself one shot, once chance. If i get in, I get it. If it dont, then I tip my hat, move on, try something else, and be content with the fact that grad school is not for me. Like I said earlier, I'd much rather stay home and work in a grocery store then attend a program here in California that I dislike lol. Eh, it works for me. The problem is that I got into the one school that is the absolute best fit for me, by far, and that school is 2,000 miles away. So it is a a big decision to make. Idk if you have seen that movie Troy, with Brad Pitt, but I keep thinking about a certain scene in that film. Odysseus comes to inform Achilles of Agamemnon's decision to attack Troy, and attempts to recruit him. Achilles takes this information to his mother and asks her advice. She states that if he were to stay home, he would grow old, find a nice wife, have children, and have a long and fruitful life. But when his children and their children died, no one would ever remember him. If he went to Troy, he would achieve things that would never be possible if he stayed home, and everyone would remember his name forever. But she would never see him again; he would never come home. I'm not saying I'm the Achilles of academia, but I draw parallels between this decision and that scene...   

[Mattie Roh]

This thread almost brought tears to my eyes. It's so nice to see people from backgrounds similar to my own with the same doubts I have. I've been agonizing over things since I applied -- not because I'm worried about a plan B, but because I'm afraid of having to make this choice that, when I can clear my mind of all the extraneous crap, I'm SO sure of. I half hope to get rejected so I don't have to.

 

But some of these posts made me feel better (or at least not alone) so thank you all for that! 

[Nyctophile]

 I'll dig you a ditch at minimum wage with a smile on my face if I can dig it with a certain no-regret knowledge in my back pocket. 

This is where I'm at. TT may never be in my future and that's okay. One of the benefits of being seriously derailed from my life's goals by blind love of someone who wasn't worth it is the 10 years worth of job experience I gained in various fields. I've had a job where I made a crap ton of money, I've been a teacher, I have options if TT doesn't work out for me. I'm half tempted to just get the PhD and go back to teaching middle school because it was the best-crazy-hectic-heart-rending year of my life prior to this. Whatever happens after I finish is all good because I will have satisfied my desire to go as far as I can education-wise.

[Nyctophile]

 

The people who will question you do not have the intelligence to be self-reflexive and question the advantages that brought them to graduate school.  

^^^ THIS ^^^

[smellybug]

Fiz, I just want to say that I was in a very similar situation as you.  I'm the first and only person in my family to graduate high school conventionally.  I'm the first and only person in my family to attend college. My high school GPA was actually lower than yours and I am also a product of the community college system.  

 

Everything you are feeling, especially the cold feet, is normal for anybody.  The reason I asked you where you got in was because I was trying to figure out how far away from home and what type of city you were moving to.  That does make a difference. 

 

And let me be brutally honest.  You will sometimes feel like you got in because of your ethnicity.  People will think you got in because of your ethnicity.   But you don't have to prove shit to anybody except yourself.  The people who will question you do not have the intelligence to be self-reflexive and question the advantages that brought them to graduate school.  

 

This is something I have had to think about through most of my school and academic career, so feel free to private message me if you want to talk any of this stuff out in more detail and we can take it from there.

It seems that everyone in my cohort feels like they were accepted to this awesome program because of some quota they fill, be it with regards to ethnicity, class, race, or whatever. (I actually fill several nontraditional quotas--a bonus!) I mention this because WE ALL feel like we got into this crazy good school because of a fluke. Even those who are wealthy and white-ish. What I have noticed is that the wealthy and white-ish don't question it as much because they have models that have done it. You may not. In my family I don't. And that leaves me with a lot of splainin' to do. The more you have to do that, I think, the more that you begin to question it. So yes, your fear is absolutely totally normal and doesn't necessarily mean you shouldn't do it.

But you should know that people may talk different than you do. It's just a matter of training. They got it from grade school on and you (presumably) didn't. Don't let that make you feel dumb. It's just a bunch of words and what matters is your brain. And I, for one, think that working in a grocery store or factory or food service actually makes you better equipped to understand this stuff. Because you have a material understanding of the world divorced from academia. A lot of people don't. Your voice is special. Since you're not invested in the whole TT thing, I say go for it. They're PAYING you to do it, for Christssake. Take the money and the books and run.

[Fiz]

This thread almost brought tears to my eyes. It's so nice to see people from backgrounds similar to my own with the same doubts I have. I've been agonizing over things since I applied -- not because I'm worried about a plan B, but because I'm afraid of having to make this choice that, when I can clear my mind of all the extraneous crap, I'm SO sure of. I half hope to get rejected so I don't have to.

 

But some of these posts made me feel better (or at least not alone) so thank you all for that! 

 

U and me both, I tell you what!

 

U applied to Urbana?? Did you hear back from them?? I hope you get in!! Im a yell at them to accept you lol!

 

What is the Midwest like?? I've never left Socal...

[toasterazzi]

First, shout out to my first generation peeps, especially those from troubled areas! Technically, my mom made it as far as community college, but she did go for a standard degree. She went to get her nursing license. My dad only got through high school. My grandpa never even got to high school. My hometown is known mostly for crime and poverty, so I feel the pressure to succeed.

 

But I'm pretty confident that we can all do the damn thing!

 

What is the Midwest like?? I've never left Socal...

 

The midwest is huge depending on whose map you use so there's differences in different places. I've lived in Indiana for almost my entire life minus one year in Illinois. I kind of hate most of Indiana for a lot of reasons that mostly have to do with politics and oppression, but that's just my own experience. There are some great and welcoming people here though, and Chicago is one of my favorite cities.

 

The weather is extremely questionable though. Like wearing a heavy coat and flip flops in the same might be a totally reasonable thing that happens around here hehe. 

 

ETA: It's been way more cold and snowy here than usual this winter. The polar vortex is a pain.

Edited February 21, 2014 by toasterazzi

[smellybug]

]

 

What is the Midwest like?? I've never left Socal...

I'm from SoCal, too, and the only real answer is that it's cold, really, really, really cold. But all of these college towns aren't like the Midwest proper. It doesn't really feel all that different. You'll find more white people and less diversity overall, but there are lots of campus groups to join. I visited Urbana last year and it's flat, like the Midwest is, which is weird when you're used to hills. But it's a super cool place. Unlike SoCal you don't need a car. And Chicago's just a train ride away.

[Mattie Roh]

U and me both, I tell you what!

 

U applied to Urbana?? Did you hear back from them?? I hope you get in!! Im a yell at them to accept you lol!

 

What is the Midwest like?? I've never left Socal...

 

Ha! I wouldn't know. I'm from Western Mass. I live in a place so rural Urbana looks like a metropolis.

 

No word from them yet, but maybe I'll see you there!

[ke6904]

Is anyone from this thread going into a PhD program with just a BA? Or has anyone experienced that before?

 

I'm having these second thoughts/ cold feet really bad lately because I feel like I'm not ready to enter a PhD program straight out of undergrad and I keep thinking I was accepted as a fluke... 

[Fiz]

Is anyone from this thread going into a PhD program with just a BA? Or has anyone experienced that before?

I'm having these second thoughts/ cold feet really bad lately because I feel like I'm not ready to enter a PhD program straight out of undergrad and I keep thinking I was accepted as a fluke...

*raises hand*

[ke6904]

*raises hand*

Well I see how you feel when you started the thread... how are you feeling now?? Any better? 

[kayrabbit]

Is anyone from this thread going into a PhD program with just a BA? Or has anyone experienced that before?

 

I'm having these second thoughts/ cold feet really bad lately because I feel like I'm not ready to enter a PhD program straight out of undergrad and I keep thinking I was accepted as a fluke... 

*raises hand*

I began a PhD program with my BA this year. It does feel like you're less prepared than other people, and it is scary, and you keep asking how the hell you got in. But it doesn't really matter how you got in; you're in, and schools probably wouldn't invest in you like they do based on a "fluke." But even if they did, it doesn't matter — they don't get to change their minds, you just get to do as much as you can with the opportunity. I'm still here, and I think (hope?) the gap that I perceive between myself with a BA and those with more advanced degrees will shrink as I continue through program.

 

It's OK to feel cold feet, for lots of reasons, but don't let it hold you back from going to a program that you know is right for you. I moved 3,000 miles to be here. It's crazy, it's scary, there's no guarantee of, well, anything. But man, I would've hated myself if I didn't come, or if I hadn't tried. It's true that you miss home even more once you leave, and I think about the opportunities I could have had at home without graduate school. "Wouldn't I have been happy doing that?" I ask myself. At home, I could have had good career choices, plus family, familiarity, peace — but at least for me, I know I wouldn't have been happy knowing that I gave up this opportunity, or never found out whether I could have it. Whether that's the case for you is entirely personal, but don't give anything up because you feel scared or inferior. Even if your fears are correct (which they almost certainly aren't), the best thing would still be to take all the ground that your scared and inferior self can get.