Perspective on Success

[SleepyOldMan]

I guess I'm really thinking more about the "fit" question: Ie, if they tell you why they thought you were a good fit for their program, is that the same way you conceived it, or different?

One reason I ask is that two of the early respondents to this thread were struck by how differently they thought of their potential fit from the way the school did, and how they had no idea from the scouting they had done on the schools that the faculty who contacted them shared the particular research interest that seemed to be key to the admissions decision.

[shortstack51]

That's actually true of my admits as well. Though they concurred with the POI I chose, there were always greater and more apropos connections between my work and the school than I previously recognized. They saw potential in my WS for their program that I didn't.

Disclaimer: I haven't been admitted to a top school, just have a couple of offers from mid-level and a wait list at a top 25

Edited February 28, 2014 by shortstack51

[SleepyOldMan]

And one last question:  For those already attending a top-tier graduate school, what percentage of the students, roughly, went to Name Brand Undergraduate?

[ComeBackZinc]

I was also told that they were "very impressed" by my "credentials" more than once, whatever that means. I guess my CV?

 

Grades and the classes you got them in, for sure. Not a sexy part of the application process and not something people like to talk about, but a huge part of a good application.

[Algernon]

I suppose I will contribute my experience to this thread, as I would have found it helpful when preparing my applications. 

I don't fall under the category of someone who got into a top tier school (as I realize OP requested), but I nevertheless think what I have to share might be valuable to someone who wants to contrast what got someone into the top tier versus what got them in the tier right below it (whatever that's called). 

I applied to eleven PhD programs in literature ranked from 10 - 44 by USN. One school has not responded, but I currently have:
 

• Two waitlists: one at a school ranked in the top 20, one ranked 36th
• One consolatory admission to the MA by a school in the top 10
• Two PhD admits: one at a school ranked 22, one at a school ranked 39. 

Undergraduate Record: I attended a tiny midwestern undergraduate-only LAC that most people outside the midwest (and even many in the midwest) have never heard of. I graduated top of my class with a BA double major in English and a minor outside of the humanities. I won a few academic awards, both inside and outside of my department, and wrote a 50+ page honors thesis. I also won a semester-long honors fellowship for a post-grad research project unrelated to my interests in literature.

GPA/GRE: GPA just shy of 4.0. My GRE verbal score was in the 97th percentile. Math around the 50th. Writing score was an embarrassing 4.0. Subject test around the 60th percentile. The MA admit and only one of the PhD admits required the subject test score. The waitlists did not.

Letter Writers: As far as I know, my letter writers are not prominent scholars in their areas of study. My primary advisor is an ivy graduate (both BA and PhD) and rather well-connected. She knows people at all but one of the institutions that admitted/waitlisted me. Another letter writer got his PhD from one of the schools that waitlisted me. My advisor is the only one of my letter writers publishing specifically in my period of interest. All are tenured. I took multiples classes with all of them and all of them knew me very well as a student and academic. -- Side note: although I'm sure my professors would have been receptive, I rarely/never socialized with them off campus and we did not share information about our personal lives with each other unless it directly affected our work together-- I strongly prefer not to mix personal and academic relationships (Surprisingly, I seem to be in the minority in this respect).

Research/Writing Sample: Very generally, I work in the 19th century with an emphasis on gender, cultural studies. I have a secondary interest in ESL and teaching writing, and have significant experience working in/researching that area. Both of the schools where I was admitted are very heavy into cultural studies. The school that offered an MA is very strong in 19th century studies. I would say that the schools with the best objective fit are indeed the ones that either accepted or waitlisted me. The school where I had the-- in my view-- *perfect* fit (very similar research to POI) rejected me. I did tailor my SOP to each school, emphasizing certain interests for certain schools and mentioning at least one or more POI. All schools received the exact same writing sample, which was a chapter from my thesis that I heavily revised/reconstructed. My advisor was the only person who edited/revised/offered feedback on my writing sample. I received significant feedback on my SOP from all three letter writers. 

My Approach to Applications: I knew going into college that I wanted to get my PhD in literature. I intentionally did not apply to graduate school or work on applications while still getting my BA. I took a year off after graduating dedicated exclusively to preparing my application, researching schools, and studying for the subject test. During that time, I worked a minimum wage job completely unrelated to academia and did absolutely nothing that I could put on my resume (not recommending that course of action for others, but it's the truth.) I contacted no POIs and, in fact, had no communication of any kind with any of the schools to which I applied.

Miscellaneous: I have no publications and have presented at no conferences. I worked in the writing center, TAed several classes (none of which were English), tutored many students in many subjects (including writing/English), took classes in Spanish and Latin, and was inducted to Phi Beta Kappa (for what that's worth...). 

In my opinion, although my application had its strong points (I'm reasonably confident in my writing sample, SOP, letters of rec, transcript), it also had a lot highly visible weak spots (crummy test scores, no publications, no conferences, no school anyone outside the midwest has even heard of, no well-known LOR writers). Given those qualities, I'm surprised and very pleased to have gotten into two well-funded programs, one in the top 25. I am happy to even be waitlisted at a top 20, and I'm almost shocked to have been offered an MA at a top tier school, though I would never, under any circumstances, accept an unfunded offer such as theirs.

My take away from this experience echoes what many others have said: it's the writing sample, SOP, and LORs that get you into programs. It's the "numbers" and quantifiable factors (test scores, degree prestige etc.) that determine if you get into the tippy-top programs. But, of course, you have to have luck, too, or the rest of it's a moo point (Friends, anyone?). I'm so incredibly thankful that luck was on my side.

 

And all of that being said.... I'm still ambivalent on the importance of rankings. But I guess I would be negligent to disregard them. 

I will add that taking a year off to focus 100% on applying to grad school was the best decision I could have made. It was scary, but I'm confident that if I'd tried to apply while writing my honors thesis or during my post-grad honors term, my application wouldn't have been anywhere as good as it was, and I highly doubt I would have gotten in anywhere. Not to mention I'm almost certain I would have just keeled over and died from the stress of it all. I'm glad, too, that I worked a mindless, irrelevant part-time job. I intentionally took the job I did so that I could earn some money (I lived at home, so didn't need to work full time to afford rent, etc.) but not feel like my attention was being taken away from grad school applications by worrying about work. I know not everyone is in a position to approach the situation as I did, and I'm very grateful I could do so.

I look back and know that I could have done a lot of things better-- read more, studied harder, retaken tests for better scores, (watched less Netflix...), but overall, I think things turned out okay regardless.

I hope this post helps someone else gain insight to the application process! I tried to be as thorough, factual, and blunt/honest as I could. 

Edited March 1, 2014 by Algernon

[hashslinger]

Not to say that the information provide thus far hasn't been helpful, but after reading everything I still feel like I'm waiting for the mystery of how to get into programs to be unveiled. 

 

It's just so hard to know what helped people get in without seeing their writing samples and SOP. I feel like I followed all of the advice that was given here--except having a cover letter--and I'm still not getting in anywhere. I thought I had a really good SOP and writing sample, good fit with the departments, good GPAs (3.7 undergrad, 3.92 MA), decent verbal score on the GRE (89th percentile), and still no success. I went to a good undergraduate program, but not ivy by any means (it was a Big 10 university). My MA school is unknown and not great--so my LOR were from people who were not well known. So, my theory is that since my letter writers and my MA institution were not prestigious, they are my demise. 

 

I guess I'll never know...unless I ask the departments in a few weeks/months for advice. Ugh. Grr. Boo. 

 

I really have sympathy for this issue. When I applied, I was in the same boat.

 

I think you're right--that we can't really know why certain people get in and others don't without seeing the writing sample and SOP.

 

I agree that luck definitely plays a role, and that this process is somewhat arbitrary and messy. Every year there are people who apply and get turned down almost everywhere ... except for the top program in the country. Those cases always underline to me the arbitrary and fickle nature of the game. I recently talked to a DGS at a top-choice school, and he said that they could easily take any of 100 or 200 applicants and they would do just fine.

 

However, there are also always applicants who get into a wide array of top-choice schools ... and in that case, I have to acknowledge that there is a little more than luck involved. Perhaps they do have a really famous letter writer--that's always a possibility. But I'm also guessing that if you looked at those people's writing samples and SOPs, you'd see that their interests are perhaps really current and relevant. They're obviously hitting some "sweet spot" that adcoms find irresistible.

 

So then the question remains: How do you know if your interests are relevant? How is a BA or first-year MA student supposed to really know what's cutting edge in their field? How do you know if your own adviser is really on top of things, or that he or she is pushing you to make a significant contribution to the field?

 

I would argue that, as a BA or MA student, you probably just can't know right now. Sometimes advisers do right by their students. Other times they're very wrapped up in their own work ... or they stopped publishing after they got tenure in 1999 ... or they ignore the latest trends in the field because they're not all that interested in them (or downright hostile to them--that was the case with my adviser) ... or whatever. In any case, their world does not end if you don't get into a PhD program. I don't mean to sound cynical, but you have to realize that in the grand scheme of things, a BA or MA student is probably not that important to an adviser. I'm not suggesting that advisers are not doing their jobs or that they're terrible people--just that they're human. They have families and lives and careers and PhD students to place. They see tons of BA and MA students come through every year. (If you've been teaching for a while, think about your own students. Does it really impact your life if your students don't get the elusive thing that they're after? Exactly.) There are some advisers out there who genuinely do care and who do get personally involved in their student's success--and they're rare and worth their weight in gold. If you have one of these, know that you're very lucky.

 

So, what do you do if you're not quite sure you're on the "right path" with your interests? How do you know if your own writing is any good? I would suggest submitting it for publication. Pick out a good journal in your field and submit your essay. Just send it off. It's absolutely NOT going to get published, I can tell you that much--but it might get a good read by a major scholar in your field. This scholar won't know who you are, and you won't know who they are. As a result, they will give you very honest feedback. They will generate a reader's report, and this anonymous report will tell you how you stand in relation to your proposed area of study. This reader will tell you whether or not you're doing something interesting, or whether you're doing something that was done in 1980. They'll tell you what major critics you have left out of your study, or whether or not your argument is full of holes. Basically, this reader won't blow smoke up your ass.

 

In retrospect, I wish I had done this in spring before I applied, but I didn't even know what a "reader's report" was or how the publication process worked. (I thought you just sent off your article and it was either accepted or rejected, no discussion.)

 

The big risk you take is that you might get a really cranky reader, or you might get some tough feedback that's difficult to hear. That is a big risk. But if you have a polished writing sample and you're not sure why you're getting turned down everywhere, the publication process might give you some insights. (FWIW, I would recommend avoiding the really major journals--ELH, ALH, American Literature, etc.--they just get so many submissions that they often times don't do readers' reports.)

Edited March 3, 2014 by hashslinger

[shortstack51]

Grades and the classes you got them in, for sure. Not a sexy part of the application process and not something people like to talk about, but a huge part of a good application.

 

Ah, thanks for the clarity. I'm always in limbo of how much impact grades/classes have on the process (ie, I only took one class in my field because only one was offered while I was an MA student yet I've had reasonable success, though no "top programs").

[smellybug]

And one last question:  For those already attending a top-tier graduate school, what percentage of the students, roughly, went to Name Brand Undergraduate?

In my programs (English and Comp Lit) it's a lot, definitely well over a third. English might be even more so, since they are more selective and highly ranked. However, I've come to view this as more representitive of the kind of applicant that comes from those schools, rather than an inherent bias towards the schools per se (although this probably does play a role). I honestly think that few applicants who came out of my school could have put together the application that I did. Resources are few there and we didn't have many models.

[ComeBackZinc]

Ah, thanks for the clarity. I'm always in limbo of how much impact grades/classes have on the process (ie, I only took one class in my field because only one was offered while I was an MA student yet I've had reasonable success, though no "top programs").

 

Grades and classes aren't a sexy part of this process, and there's obviously tons of people with perfect or close-to-perfect grades who are applying to school. And as usual in this process, there are people that get into great programs without stellar grades. But really, grades are the foundation that allow you to wow them with your letters, your SOP, and your writing sample. They indicate to adcomms that you have the ability to produce high-quality work in a post-secondary setting, and that you're dedicated enough to survive the long haul.

[heja0805]

And all of that being said.... I'm still ambivalent on the importance of rankings. But I guess I would be negligent to disregard them.

I will add that taking a year off to focus 100% on applying to grad school was the best decision I could have made. It was scary, but I'm confident that if I'd tried to apply while writing my honors thesis or during my post-grad honors term, my application wouldn't have been anywhere as good as it was, and I highly doubt I would have gotten in anywhere. Not to mention I'm almost certain I would have just keeled over and died from the stress of it all. I'm glad, too, that I worked a mindless, irrelevant part-time job. I intentionally took the job I did so that I could earn some money (I lived at home, so didn't need to work full time to afford rent, etc.) but not feel like my attention was being taken away from grad school applications by worrying about work. I know not everyone is in a position to approach the situation as I did, and I'm very grateful I could do so.

I look back and know that I could have done a lot of things better-- read more, studied harder, retaken tests for better scores, (watched less Netflix...), but overall, I think things turned out okay regardless.

I hope this post helps someone else gain insight to the application process! I tried to be as thorough, factual, and blunt/honest as I could.

Thank you so much for this, Algernon. I can relate to your experience in a number of ways, though I'll chose to mention one for the sake of brevity. I would, however, like to mention that I study rhetoric and composition and can really only speak to that context.

I did my undergrad at a state university in Minnesota, just large and old enough for it to have a long and illustrious history of binge drinking. Despite its high enrollment, it's a comprehensive university and is little known outside the state. I did mediocre in my courses and found much more satisfaction by putting in as many hours as I could as a writing tutor. Of course, there are fine things about spending several years of my life here, but I want to emphasize that getting into a masters program was a huge concern for me.

I had convinced myself that going to a better institution for my masters was essential for getting into a PhD program in rhetoric and composition, and I set out to take a year off to prepare for that endeavor. But after trying my hand at teaching abroad (and finding out after a few months that it wasn't my jam), stressing about the GRE, and working at a meat-packing plant through a temp agency, I was ready to go chat with the faculty at my alma mater to see if I could still get into their small, newly established M.A. in Rhetoric and Writing. Less than a month later, I was admitted and offered an assistantship to teach composition that fall.

Of course, I was pleased to have the opportunity, but I went into that program knowing that its prestige or reputation wouldn't do me any favors when it came time for me to apply to phd programs. Over the course of a year, I did anything and everything I could to bolster my application. Because departmental funding was nonexistent, I ended up spending a fair amount of money out of pocket to present at 10 conferences over a year and a half. I interned as a tech writer for an health mobile app startup in Georgia (and couch surfed that summer to make ends meet). Finally, I stressed out (probably a bit too much) to write a book review which was published in a major journal just before the application season.

Were all of these activities and expenses necessary for me to be a competitive PhD applicant? Absolutely not. But what I can say about this is that I have been able to learn a great deal about the field, and more importantly, myself. While all of these activities were shaped by my context, I'm confident that many readers of this thread can relate to concerns about reputation when applying to doctoral programs.

I did not take the GRE seriously, frankly, because I don't believe it's an accurate assessment of my ability to do research and teaching in rhetoric (I expertly selected three programs that did not require it for admission). As of today, I've been waitlisted by every program except for my top choice, where I have been accepted. I am pleased that a great number of successful scholars in rhetoric and writing have come from institutions like our little-known, Midwestern universities, and I certainly wouldn't mind working at one once I get my phd.

Edited March 4, 2014 by heja0805

[Swagato]

And one last question:  For those already attending a top-tier graduate school, what percentage of the students, roughly, went to Name Brand Undergraduate?

 

Most of us, from what I can see, went to a leading undergrad institution or have an MA from a leading department. Frankly, I think it's because the process is one of successive stages of validation. Top undergrad? Reasonable to expect good preparation and prospects. Modest undergrad but top-department MA? Likewise. Top everything? Likewise. 

 

Given the sheer numbers (applicants vs. admissions), I can imagine this sort of process makes a good amount of sense. 

[despejado]

Most of us, from what I can see, went to a leading undergrad institution or have an MA from a leading department. Frankly, I think it's because the process is one of successive stages of validation. Top undergrad? Reasonable to expect good preparation and prospects. Modest undergrad but top-department MA? Likewise. Top everything? Likewise.

Given the sheer numbers (applicants vs. admissions), I can imagine this sort of process makes a good amount of sense.

Just hypothetically speaking, if I were to have to end up choosing between an MA at Syr. and an MA at Villanova, how would I know which program is more prestigious? Nova isn't ranked because they don't have a PhD program, but I've been consistently told by professors that it's a good school and viewed favorably. Also, it's a terminal MA with no PhD, so I imagine the faculty there spends more time with the MA students than the faculty at Cuse would. Thoughts?

Edited March 4, 2014 by despejado

[Ozymandias Melancholia]

And one last question:  For those already attending a top-tier graduate school, what percentage of the students, roughly, went to Name Brand Undergraduate?

 

 

Most of us, from what I can see, went to a leading undergrad institution or have an MA from a leading department. Frankly, I think it's because the process is one of successive stages of validation. Top undergrad? Reasonable to expect good preparation and prospects. Modest undergrad but top-department MA? Likewise. Top everything? Likewise. 

 

Given the sheer numbers (applicants vs. admissions), I can imagine this sort of process makes a good amount of sense. 

While I generally agree with Swagato's response, there are, no doubt, exceptions. For instance, I went to small, no-name private university, and I (somehow) managed to get accepted into Brown. Not to mention I also had relatively low GRE scores.*shrugs shoulders*

[ComeBackZinc]

While I generally agree with Swagato's response, there are, no doubt, exceptions. For instance, I went to small, no-name private university, and I (somehow) managed to get accepted into Brown. Not to mention I also had relatively low GRE scores.*shrugs shoulders*

 

Indeed, there are exceptions. Many. It's just important to point out that they are exceptions.

[Swagato]

Indeed, there are exceptions. Many. It's just important to point out that they are exceptions.

 

What s/he said. 

 

 

Just hypothetically speaking, if I were to have to end up choosing between an MA at Syr. and an MA at Villanova, how would I know which program is more prestigious? Nova isn't ranked because they don't have a PhD program, but I've been consistently told by professors that it's a good school and viewed favorably. Also, it's a terminal MA with no PhD, so I imagine the faculty there spends more time with the MA students than the faculty at Cuse would. Thoughts?

 

I would try to find out which one has seen more graduates ending up in the kind of PhD programs you have in mind. I'd also talk to current/past students at both. And, of course, I'd be upfront with professors that you are in contact with about your future PhD ambitions. Often, there really aren't any hard rankings (and rankings between #2 and #6, for example, probably won't matter as much as #2 and #60).

[despejado]

What s/he said. 

 

 

 

I would try to find out which one has seen more graduates ending up in the kind of PhD programs you have in mind. I'd also talk to current/past students at both. And, of course, I'd be upfront with professors that you are in contact with about your future PhD ambitions. Often, there really aren't any hard rankings (and rankings between #2 and #6, for example, probably won't matter as much as #2 and #60).

 

Is this (placement) something I could find out from their websites, or would it be a question for the DGS?

Off I go to scour some English Department placement statistics...

 

From Nova's website:

 

"In recent years, recipients of the Master’s degree in English from Villanova have been admitted to highly competitive Ph.D. programs, including those at Harvard, Rutgers, Princeton, Penn State, UCLA, Tufts, and the Universities of Kansas, Maryland, and Pennsylvania.  Others have elected to use the degree to pursue teaching positions at the excellent secondary schools adjacent to the university.  Still others have chosen to pursue careers in publishing, university administration, marketing, non-profit work, library science, and other fields that demand the verbal acumen and analytical rigor our program cultivates."

 

Well. That sounds promising.

Edited March 4, 2014 by despejado

[Swagato]

I'd still recommend actually talking to individuals. Most websites rarely will have current information, or they'll have it in rather a general fashion. 

[despejado]

I'd still recommend actually talking to individuals. Most websites rarely will have current information, or they'll have it in rather a general fashion. 

 

Thanks! If it ends up being necessary, I'll talk to my advisers and get a general consensus from them. I do know that one of them had a former student recently go through Nova and end up at Penn, so I think I know which school he'll vouch for haha. But yes, thank you for the advice

[Romanista]

Search "site:linkedin.com" and include "MA Villanova English" or something like that. Then see where their graduates have ended up and which PhD programs they got into.

 

Everything is on the internets.

[Swagato]

^ Not really. Many choose not to publicize information.