Hopelessly_Neurotic Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Just wondering if anyone has any insight into whether this is a realistic goal -- I'd love to hear from ambitious people who are already in a PhD program rather than pure speculation from those who aren't there yet. My grad school has a posted timetable that is four years, but I've inquired a little and students so far say that rarely does anyone complete it in four years. If I could finish in four years I would be happy. I am very proactive and organized, so if that is what it takes then I think it's something I could do. The first two years at my program are course heavy, and after that there is a teaching apprenticeship. Throughout, if one is not on a scholarship then they have TA/RA responsibilities. I hope to secure external funding along the way in order to minimize my TA/RA obligations so that I can focus on my research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stories Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 It depends on how your program is setup. In my program, the average time to graduation is 4.5 years, which means that 4 years is very attainable. For instance, on the training fellowship that I'm funded on, I do 2 years at Yale and then 2 years at the National Cancer Institute for my dissertation work for 2 years. Mine is structured in a way where I should graduate within 4 years. Then again, a big thing with epidemiology (and other fields of public health) is that almost everyone comes in with a master's already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzylogician Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Officially my program has a 4-year timetable, but the professors I talked to there seemed to think that it's usually inadvisable to finish at that pace and it's better to apply for 5th year funding and finish "slower". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liszt85 Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Just wondering if anyone has any insight into whether this is a realistic goal -- I'd love to hear from ambitious people who are already in a PhD program rather than pure speculation from those who aren't there yet. My grad school has a posted timetable that is four years, but I've inquired a little and students so far say that rarely does anyone complete it in four years. If I could finish in four years I would be happy. I am very proactive and organized, so if that is what it takes then I think it's something I could do. The first two years at my program are course heavy, and after that there is a teaching apprenticeship. Throughout, if one is not on a scholarship then they have TA/RA responsibilities. I hope to secure external funding along the way in order to minimize my TA/RA obligations so that I can focus on my research. A professor from another school that I was considering told me that I could finish their program in 4 yrs if I worked hard enough and that other international students had done it in the past (had to complete it asap due to financial reasons). Again, depends on what your program is like.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopelessly_Neurotic Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 Interesting... I'm not sure I buy it that it is better to go through a program slowly. Did your profs tell you why they think it's better? I do think it's important to get the most you can out of your PhD experience, but if you can get through fast with the same quality of experience...why not? In my field (developmental psychology), completing a post doc is also an option and is sometimes recommended. If I shave off a year of my PhD then I would feel better about pursuing a post doc. I'm an older student and so I don't really wanna muck around for an extra year if I don't absolutely have to. I also have a lot of practical research experience already and so I an optimistic that this will help me fast track through the data collection process, which often slows people down in my field. I could see how having an MA could help you get through faster if it means you don't have to complete as many courses... Anyone else have any insight as to whether this is doable? Advisable? prettyuff1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasper.milvain Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 A good friend of mine who is on pace to finish in four years recently decided to shoot for five instead so that she could line up a library/archive fellowship for a term, and focus on publishing a couple of really great articles. She's absolutely capable of finishing in four, but her advisors agree that taking the extra year to really bulk up her CV is worthwhile. That being said, I had a grad chair for a while who did a three year PhD and was tenured by thirty. I daydream about that sometimes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzylogician Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Interesting... I'm not sure I buy it that it is better to go through a program slowly. Did your profs tell you why they think it's better? I do think it's important to get the most you can out of your PhD experience, but if you can get through fast with the same quality of experience...why not? "slow" is a relative term . In my field, almost no one finishes in under 5 years. Of course, it depends on each student's progress in the program, but the consensus seemed to be that only very few students have enough high quality published work to successfully go through job interviews in their third/fourth years, before their dissertation is complete. For most, the profs though that it would be advisable go "slower" - take the 5th year funding, work more on the dissertation, and end up with better prospects of getting a TT position right out of grad school. I'm ambitious (foolish?) enough not to immediately rule out the possibility of finishing in 4 years, but I'll do the 5th year if it'll secure me a better job in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopelessly_Neurotic Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 "slow" is a relative term . In my field, almost no one finishes in under 5 years. Of course, it depends on each student's progress in the program, but the consensus seemed to be that only very few students have enough high quality published work to successfully go through job interviews in their third/fourth years, before their dissertation is complete. For most, the profs though that it would be advisable go "slower" - take the 5th year funding, work more on the dissertation, and end up with better prospects of getting a TT position right out of grad school. I'm ambitious (foolish?) enough not to immediately rule out the possibility of finishing in 4 years, but I'll do the 5th year if it'll secure me a better job in the end. I think you are right. I guess the best approach would be to just work really hard and see what happens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stories Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 Even folks who do end up graduating in 4 years, won't they do at least a 1 year or 2 as a post-doc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogopogo Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I think 4 years is possible, if you don't have anything else going on, you are cool with working *all* the time, you have research experience, you already have a good idea what your thesis research will be, and you don't need a lot of sleep. Of course, it depends on the program and the faculty members you work with, and who will be hiring you after you finish. I have to take the full load of courses in my phd, despite doing an MA in the same subject from a roughly equivalent university (same country and similar ranking). I tried to bargain this down before I accepted, but the only courses they offered to let me skip were the one that I thought might be useful to revisit and the one I hadn't already taken. I'm a bit sad about duplicating previous efforts, but I guess in the end I'll learn more and better. I'm also hoping that research experience will help with finishing quickly, like 5 years instead of 7 (like some people I know), but ultimately I'm not in a huge hurry and my personality and priorities are not like the people I know who have done it in 4 years (a very few people). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopelessly_Neurotic Posted April 14, 2009 Author Share Posted April 14, 2009 I think 4 years is possible, if you don't have anything else going on, you are cool with working *all* the time, you have research experience, you already have a good idea what your thesis research will be, and you don't need a lot of sleep. Of course, it depends on the program and the faculty members you work with, and who will be hiring you after you finish. I have to take the full load of courses in my phd, despite doing an MA in the same subject from a roughly equivalent university (same country and similar ranking). I tried to bargain this down before I accepted, but the only courses they offered to let me skip were the one that I thought might be useful to revisit and the one I hadn't already taken. I'm a bit sad about duplicating previous efforts, but I guess in the end I'll learn more and better. I'm also hoping that research experience will help with finishing quickly, like 5 years instead of 7 (like some people I know), but ultimately I'm not in a huge hurry and my personality and priorities are not like the people I know who have done it in 4 years (a very few people). Thanks for your point of view. See, it's not that I am super ambitious or anything -- I'm motivated of course, but the reason I posted this question is because I'm just curious to know if it's doable...i.e., if it's possible that people who complete a PhD in five years actually could do it faster but, for whatever reason, don't take the opportunity to do so. You seem to be suggesting that this is not the case and that to complete the degree in four years might be possible but you would basically burn out in the process. I'm not really interested in killing myself to get it done faster, but work hard? Yes. Be super efficient? Yes, definitely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rising_star Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 There are lots of variables. I have to do a year of international fieldwork for my dissertation, which makes graduating in four years difficult, if not impossible, even though technically it's a 4 year program. That said, the advice I got was to take 5-5.5 years to finish so that I will be able to go on the job market with publications out or "in press", rather than merely "submitted". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopelessly_Neurotic Posted April 15, 2009 Author Share Posted April 15, 2009 There are lots of variables. I have to do a year of international fieldwork for my dissertation, which makes graduating in four years difficult, if not impossible, even though technically it's a 4 year program. That said, the advice I got was to take 5-5.5 years to finish so that I will be able to go on the job market with publications out or "in press", rather than merely "submitted". That makes sense...although one could also aim to finish the PhD in 4-4.5 years and do a post doc. I just worry that it's not really necessary in some programs to hang around for five years, i.e., that one could be doing other things... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogopogo Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Sorry if that sounded snarky or wasn't what you wanted to hear, i was trying to be helpful, with maybe just a touch of humour. It really does depend on your program and their expectations of you - if they expect you to edit working papers, organize conferences, TA, RA, teach classes, run a lab while your supervisor is on sabbatical, and publish really good papers in really good journals (etc.) it's an awful lot harder to fit everything in than if they only ask you to do some of those things, particularly if you have a family or other obligations outside of school. Honestly, the people I know who completed in 4 years did basically burn out trying to do everything all at once, but your program may be quite different, and so might you be. There are obviously other people out there who could have finished faster if they worked harder too. I think you just need to wait and see, and not make any firm plans for your (potential) 5th year, but I wish you the best of luck and I'll cheer for you if you make it in 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goose2009 Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 Hi, I'm also starting a PhD program in psychology next fall and talked about time lines with a few different schools when I went to interviews. Every one of them recommended that I not try and finish in 4 years, for a few reasons. First, burn out. Trying to finish that quickly will basically require you not to have a life from what I understand. However, the main reason is getting publications out there before you are on the market. Getting publications out takes a long time! First you have to do the research, then you need to write it up, then send it out, and if you don't get rejected outright and have to resubmit other places after revisions, you will likely have to go back and forth with revisions a few times. Anyway, it seems like the number one thing you need to get a TT job right off the bat is a list of publications on your CV, and for that reason the people I talked to said take at least 5 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopelessly_Neurotic Posted April 15, 2009 Author Share Posted April 15, 2009 Hey, no worries, I didn't interpret your response as snarky. I like honesty!! And humor... The stuff you say makes sense. I expect that my program will be demanding, but I won't know just how demanding it will be on me until I'm there. I would like to have some semblance of a life while I'm in grad school, especially since I am a little older and the idea of sacrificing today for tomorrow is not as appealing as it used to be... In response to the last poster, that sounds like good advice you received; however, as I mentioned before, one could do the PhD in four years, followed by a post doc...that way you still have time to get papers out, etc. before entering the job market. If one is planning on doing a post doc either way, then it would seem sensible to get through the PhD faster. But if not, then yeah, five years is probably the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goose2009 Posted April 15, 2009 Share Posted April 15, 2009 On the same note, from how I understand it having publications will also help you get into a top notch post doc. But who knows what will happen once grad school starts, I guess it is just best to see what happens and not worry about it too much now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopelessly_Neurotic Posted April 16, 2009 Author Share Posted April 16, 2009 On the same note, from how I understand it having publications will also help you get into a top notch post doc. But who knows what will happen once grad school starts, I guess it is just best to see what happens and not worry about it too much now. Oh, easier said than done!!! But yes, you make a good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cogneuroforfun Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Just to emphasize what the last person said, doing a postdoc IS going onto the job market. If you want a better paying, more prestigious, better location postdoc, you need to have a good publication and research record already. That 5th year might be invaluable for polishing up your dissertation, doing a review article or two with your advisor, and other things that will get you a top postdoc. And of course if you want a shot at that dream TT position, you'll need to have the connections and research that come with that top postdoc. Don't think of cutting that 5th year to do a postdoc sooner; you'll need both! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopelessly_Neurotic Posted April 16, 2009 Author Share Posted April 16, 2009 Just to emphasize what the last person said, doing a postdoc IS going onto the job market. If you want a better paying, more prestigious, better location postdoc, you need to have a good publication and research record already. That 5th year might be invaluable for polishing up your dissertation, doing a review article or two with your advisor, and other things that will get you a top postdoc. And of course if you want a shot at that dream TT position, you'll need to have the connections and research that come with that top postdoc. Don't think of cutting that 5th year to do a postdoc sooner; you'll need both! Excellent advice. I hadn't thought about it this way. I wonder if I will need to do a post doc though. Are they common in neuropsych? My program is developmental and I'm in a decent department. I have fantasized about being able to get a job straight out of my PhD program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cogneuroforfun Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Excellent advice. I hadn't thought about it this way. I wonder if I will need to do a post doc though. Are they common in neuropsych? My program is developmental and I'm in a decent department. I have fantasized about being able to get a job straight out of my PhD program. I think it is possible, but highly unlikely. My current advisor (cognitive neuroscience, in psychology department) actually had a TT job lined up when he got his PhD in 2001, but took a 2 year postdoc and deferred starting until 2003. So I'm not always exactly sure what the motivation is, other than having those 1 or 2 years to just do research without all the teaching and bureaucracy of a professorship getting in the way. That could certainly have been his motivation. Also, I think it used to be more common to be able to find a decent professor position without a postdoc, whereas now postdocs are more necessary, if just to separate yourself from the other applicants for that position. The grad students who I know that are close to finishing (3 of them) are all clinical/neuro and are all planning on postdocs or more specialized positions before applying for professorships. Hopefully someone else has more concrete info or advice, beyond anecdotal evidence! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hopelessly_Neurotic Posted April 16, 2009 Author Share Posted April 16, 2009 I think it is possible, but highly unlikely. My current advisor (cognitive neuroscience, in psychology department) actually had a TT job lined up when he got his PhD in 2001, but took a 2 year postdoc and deferred starting until 2003. So I'm not always exactly sure what the motivation is, other than having those 1 or 2 years to just do research without all the teaching and bureaucracy of a professorship getting in the way. That could certainly have been his motivation. Also, I think it used to be more common to be able to find a decent professor position without a postdoc, whereas now postdocs are more necessary, if just to separate yourself from the other applicants for that position. The grad students who I know that are close to finishing (3 of them) are all clinical/neuro and are all planning on postdocs or more specialized positions before applying for professorships. Hopefully someone else has more concrete info or advice, beyond anecdotal evidence! Very interesting. I just wonder how much it varies by subfield in psychology. But I'm not really averse to doing postdoc. It seems like a nice way to transition from grad work to the responsibilities of being a professor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
liszt85 Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 Very interesting. I just wonder how much it varies by subfield in psychology. But I'm not really averse to doing postdoc. It seems like a nice way to transition from grad work to the responsibilities of being a professor. I'm in cognitive and my PhD work will be in a more general area (memory, attention, etc) but my long term aim is to specialize in studying music cognition. So it is absolutely necessary for me to do one (or more) post docs to gain that expertise. Only then would I even think of applying for a professorship. So I think the need for postdocs really would vary with the circumstances you might be in with regards to the nature of specificity of your research focus. If it is already specialized enough and if you've done great work AND if there are enough jobs for that specialization, I don't see a reason why one would want to do postdocs, unless as someone pointed out, he/she would want to live a few more years free of the bureaucracy that comes along with such a job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stories Posted April 16, 2009 Share Posted April 16, 2009 This is especially true of the sciences where very few PhD graduates land a TT position immediately. Almost all of them will do postdocs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
belowthree Posted April 18, 2009 Share Posted April 18, 2009 In my field postdocs are actually very rare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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