Harvard Extension School

[ahimsa000]

Well I just wanted to know everyone's opinion on HES for pursuing my Masters, since my undergrad experience does not show that I'm a motivated learner. If I don't get in anywhere else, I will do the HES program, and continue elsewhere to finish my PhD, hopefully somewhere reputable.

Edited April 5, 2014 by sr41489

[MastersHoping]

^If I were you, I wouldn't worry.

For several reasons.

Harvard Extension School degrees are real degrees. Period. And you are a Harvard alum after getting it. Harvard, and most universities, have many different schools (Engineering, Arts and Sciences, Medical, Law, Journalism, Business, etc., and in the case of Harvard, extension.) If you get a degree from any one of those individual schools, you are recognized as an alum of the university.

Additionally, it is even less of a concern for you specifically because you want to go on to a doctorate.

Most masters in traditional programs cost like, what, 50, 000 a year??? Two years and boom you're 100k down the drain even before setting foot in a doctoral program. The HES masters cost about 1/3rd - 1/4th of a traditional degree, and probably just as good quality (although I heard a little less structured...meh). 

Plus, check out this list:

http://www.extension.harvard.edu/degrees-certificates/master-liberal-arts/overview/after-alm-graduate-schools

 

Ph.D Programs themselves obviously don't seem to hold it against for going to HES. It seems to me that for your case, HES is a clear route! Best of luck, and let me know how it goes ! 

[ahimsa000]

Thanks so much for that MastersHoping...

 

I'm just going to wait to see if I get into anywhere else with some funding, if not, HES is where I'll be! I'm actually not bummed out about my rejections anymore...now I have the chance to start fresh and do well before applying to a PhD program.  

[Crimson2014]

The names are a bit of a giveaway but to quote

 

"All freshman applicants—both international and U.S. candidates—must complete the Common Application or Universal College Application, along with the required supplements. You will need to submit:"

 

https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/application-requirements

 

You cited application requirements for Harvard College, one of thirteen schools within Harvard University. But even Harvard College has varying application requirements depending on the applicant. The information that you quoted was for "freshmen applicants" only. You ignored the different requirements for "transfer applicants" and "visiting undergraduate applicants."

 

As you can see, there is no "common application process" for Harvard College, let alone the other twelve schools within Harvard University. 

Edited April 6, 2014 by Crimson2014

[Guest |||]

You cited application requirements for Harvard College, one of thirteen schools within Harvard University. But even Harvard College has varying application requirements depending on the applicant. The information that you quoted was for "freshmen applicants" only. You ignored the different requirements for "transfer applicants" and "visiting undergraduate applicants."

 

As you can see, there is no "common application process" for Harvard College, let alone the other twelve schools within Harvard University. 

 

Gee I wonder if this relates to the point I made of majority applicants vs minority of applicants.

 

But I don't want to argue with you anymore or continue to derail the topic.  If you want to continue holding the view that no one will percieve students differently based on the admission standards they had to meet, feel free.

 

 

 

 

sr41489, do the best you can and persue your academic goals whether that is through the HES or otherwise!

[Crucial BBQ]

Please check your facts so as to avoid making ignorant statements. Students of the Harvard Extension School are students of Harvard University, and therefore constitute "Harvard students." The problem is that your conception of "Harvard students" is vague and ambiguous, and therefore applies to virtually the entire student population of Harvard University, including Extension. But still, I argue that Extension students are still "Harvard students." 

 

"HES Students" requires a bit of clarification as Extension students typically fall into two camps: (1) Course Takers; and (2) Degree Candidates. But regardless, either type of student can rightfully claim that he or she is a "Harvard student."

 

Course takers are folks who enroll in Extension courses typically for three reasons, though these reasons are by no means mutually exclusive: (i) to pursue intellectual interest; (ii) to meet continuing education requirements that may or may not culminate in receipt of a professional certificate; (iii) to complete pre admission course requirements for Extension's degree programs (AA, ALB, and MLA). Course Takers are not granted full campus privileges, but they have access to Grossman library and are even given the coveted "@fas.harvard.edu" e-mail address, which they may use so long as they are enrolled in courses. Since Course Takers take courses through the Harvard Extension School, which is one of thirteen schools under the umbrella of Harvard University (e.g. Harvard College, Harvard Law School, Divinity School, etc.), they can rightfully claim to be "Harvard students." 

 

Degree candidates are granted access to virtually all of Harvard University's facilities including all its libraries, museums, career services center, etc. (I say "virtually" because on-campus housing is not available to Extension students). Additionally, Extension alumni are full-fledged alumni of Harvard University. Therefore, Degree Candidates can rightfully claim that they are in fact "Harvard students."

 

Moreover, Degree Candidates should rightfully claim their status as "Harvard students." They must successfully pass the "Test of Critical Reading and Analytic Writing" in order to earn a place in the gate-keeper pre admission course that is Expository Writing; they must then pass Expos with a 'B' or better. Expos has served as a requirement of the Harvard College Writing Program for ages and is notable because even literary icon T.S. Eliot struggled in the course. (Master's-Level Degree Candidates must pass a proseminar course in their field). Degree candidates must also pass two other pre admission courses with a 'B' or better before they are eligible to apply to the programs. Yes. Extension still requires a formal application even after students clear the pre admission hurdles. Moreover, Extension degree programs require that a minimum number of credits be taken on campus and with Harvard instructors, but students can earn degrees by taking courses exclusively with Harvard faculty if they so desire. From a qualitative standpoint, if a student takes Harvard courses (especially those taught by Harvard faculty), then she constitutes a "Harvard student."

 

Both Course Takers and Degree Candidates constitute "Harvard students." If you feel that Extension students should clarify their affiliation with the University, then the onus should be on you to avoid using such a vague and ambiguous conception as "Harvard students." Please do not attempt to denigrate Extension students for meeting the standards set by your own vague conception of "Harvard students." 

Judging by your avatar and the fact that all four of your posts are in this thread, I am going to assume that you are either a current HES student or a graduate of HES.  

 

I did my undergrad in Boston.  I never once heard a "Harvard" student specify that they were a Harvard College student.  Yet, 10/10 times when a Harvard student mentioned they went to Harvard they meant Harvard College.  Those Harvard students who went to Harvard Med or Harvard Divinity or Harvard Business and so on specified they attended the specific school. It has been documented (generally through Twitter, but also through numerous blogs and a few news articles) that some HES students claim be to Harvard (College) students.  I am not arguing that HES students are not members of Harvard University.  They are, however, are not members of Harvard College, which some HES students claim to be.  Yes, it is ambiguous.  To most people not in the know Harvard College and Harvard University are one and the same; in popular culture Harvard means Harvard College. Chances are to your neighbor HES and Harvard College are the same thing because they are not aware of the difference. 

 

I never stated that HES was a lesser school.  As someone who spent the (almost) entirety of an undergraduate career as a non-traditional student, I seriously considered HES on two occasions (one as a "freshman" admit and then again as a transfer).  I think it is a great program for what it is and for what it offers non-traditional students. 

 

Yes, I do feel that HES students should specify that they are indeed Extension students.  It is honest, and, considering that HES is in fact a rigorous "program" they should also feel accomplished if they see HES through to the end.  

 

I stand by what I wrote.  

 

Here is some reading on the subject:

http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/lamont/2013/09/18/harvard-extension-school-resume-guidelines-are-bogus/

 

[Crimson2014]

 

 

 

I did my undergrad in Boston.  I never once heard a "Harvard" student specify that they were a Harvard College student.  Yet, 10/10 times when a Harvard student mentioned they went to Harvard they meant Harvard College.  Those Harvard students who went to Harvard Med or Harvard Divinity or Harvard Business and so on specified they attended the specific school. It has been documented (generally through Twitter, but also through numerous blogs and a few news articles) that some HES students claim be to Harvard (College) students.  I am not arguing that HES students are not members of Harvard University.  They are, however, are not members of Harvard College, which some HES students claim to be.  Yes, it is ambiguous.  To most people not in the know Harvard College and Harvard University are one and the same; in popular culture Harvard means Harvard College. Chances are to your neighbor HES and Harvard College are the same thing because they are not aware of the difference. 

 

I never stated that HES was a lesser school.  As someone who spent the (almost) entirety of an undergraduate career as a non-traditional student, I seriously considered HES on two occasions (one as a "freshman" admit and then again as a transfer).  I think it is a great program for what it is and for what it offers non-traditional students. 

 

Yes, I do feel that HES students should specify that they are indeed Extension students.  It is honest, and, considering that HES is in fact a rigorous "program" they should also feel accomplished if they see HES through to the end.  

 

I stand by what I wrote.  

 

Here is some reading on the subject:

http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/lamont/2013/09/18/harvard-extension-school-resume-guidelines-are-bogus/

 

 

 

Thanks for your reply. Let's unpack this retort point by point. 

 

Judging by your avatar and the fact that all four of your posts are in this thread, I am going to assume that you are either a current HES student or a graduate of HES.

 

You didn't state why or why not this point is relevant, but in the interest of being forthright, yes I am a student of the ALB program; I graduate next month. My diploma will read "Harvard University," not " Harvard Extension School." At that time I will gain full-fledged Harvard alumni status. I also possess an id card issued by Harvard University that grants access to virtually every facility on campus, and I am welcome at The Harvard Club in my city. Most importantly, though, I earned my degree by taking classes exclusively with Harvard instructors.

 

Yes, I do feel that HES students should specify that they are indeed Extension students.  It is honest, and, considering that HES is in fact a rigorous "program" they should also feel accomplished if they see HES through to the end.

 

When people ask where I attend, I typically say "The Extension School at Harvard." But I would also feel no qualms simply saying "Harvard." if anything, saying Harvard by itself is more accurate since I earned my degree taking classes at Extension, Harvard College and Harvard Summer School. For all of the aforementioned reasons, I consider myself a "Harvard student." 

 

I never stated that HES was a lesser school.

 

Right, and I didn't accuse you of making this claim. Moreover, I appreciate that you recognize the academic rigor of Extension. Unfortunately, the most pernicious myth surrounding the Extension School, especially for the ALB program, is that its curricula are of lesser academic rigor than Harvard College. Yes, there are courses unique to the Extension School, but these courses are still mandated by the Harvard Faculty of Arts and Sciences, which oversees Harvard College, Harvard GSAS, and Harvard Extension School. Additionally, Extension ALB candidates can and do enroll in Harvard College courses through recorded lectures or through Special Student Status (ALM students can apply to take courses at Harvard's graduate schools). For instance, I worked with the Department Chair in my field at Harvard, and did not squander the opportunity. When it came time to apply to grad programs, this professor had no qualms about writing a letter of recommendation for me. I have no doubt that the academic rigor of Extension, as well as my interactions with Harvard faculty helped tremendously in my endeavors; I recently accepted an offer from the Graduate School of Arts and Sciences at another Ivy. 

 

 

Yet, 10/10 times when a Harvard student mentioned they went to Harvard they meant Harvard College.

 

This anecdotal evidence has nothing to do with my point. My point is that it is not incorrect, nor is it misleading, for any student of Harvard University to list his or her affiliation as "Harvard." If you wish to receive further clarification, then the onus is on you to ask for it. Students of any of the thirteen schools that comprise Harvard University are not misrepresenting themselves by stating that they are "Harvard students."  

 

It has been documented (generally through Twitter, but also through numerous blogs and a few news articles) that some HES students claim be to Harvard (College) students.

 

Source? I ask purely out of curiosity as this "evidence" is still beside the point. I never claimed that a small number of perfidious students do not occasionally misrepresent their specific affiliations with the University. But for an Extension student to simply claim "Harvard" is not a misrepresentation, and may even serve practical ends as I listed above. 

 

To most people not in the know Harvard College and Harvard University are one and the same; in popular culture Harvard means Harvard College

You are resorting to a logical fallacy known as the "bandwagon fallacy." You are saying that because x number of people believe something, then the claim is validated. Well by that logic, the earth would have made itself flat for a large portion of human history because so many people believed it to be true. I will concede that the layman probably does conflate Harvard University with Harvard College. But that does't make the claim true. The truth is that Harvard College is but one of 13 schools of Harvard University.  Therefore, the Extension School is as much a part of Harvard University as Harvard College, or any of the other 11 schools.   

Edited April 7, 2014 by Crimson2014

[HKsai]

May I ask if anyone knows the acceptance rate and the median for sat and gre for the extension school? Thanks !

[ahimsa000]

HKSai,

 

There is no GRE required for the program, at least the one I'm interested in...not sure about acceptance rate either. 

[ahimsa000]

I've decided to go with the program...regardless of where I get in (I have 2 more schools to possibly get rejected from) so I'm just going with HES. I need to prove myself to the AdCom for my PhD application, and will work my ass off to get there! I'm really excited...slightly nervous but excited to start a new journey! Thanks for all the support and posts on this thread! I will probably start in the Fall this year with my admissions courses.   Thanks again! 

[HKsai]

I've decided to go with the program...regardless of where I get in (I have 2 more schools to possibly get rejected from) so I'm just going with HES. I need to prove myself to the AdCom for my PhD application, and will work my ass off to get there! I'm really excited...slightly nervous but excited to start a new journey! Thanks for all the support and posts on this thread! I will probably start in the Fall this year with my admissions courses.   Thanks again! 

Best of luck!!!!!!! Don't let your pass define your future!!!!!

[MastersHoping]

sr41489:

Congratulations on your decision to attend HES! It sounds like it's a great fit for you and your interests. Best of luck with your future endeavors, and be sure to keep us updated about your progress when you start applying to doctoral programs!

 

Crimson2014: 

I owe you a big thank you for your helpful posts on this thread! I was thinking of possibly pursuing a HES masters eventually, though after some reconsideration I don't think it's a good fit for what I want to do in the future, but your posts were highly informative and seem to be someone who got exactly what he/she wanted from the program. Congrats on your Ivy grad school acceptance! Further proof that you had a "legit" quality degree from Harvard. 

[ahimsa000]

I just got acceptances into Worcester State University and Eastern Virginia Medical School (for Masters' program). I'm in a state of shock. 

[Crucial BBQ]

 

 

 

 

I just got acceptances into Worcester State University and Eastern Virginia Medical School (for Masters' program). I'm in a state of shock. 

I saw that in the Results and thought it might have been you.  

 

What are you going to do?  

[ahimsa000]

Not sure yet, I'm going to wait to find out if I got in anywhere else and then make a pros and cons list for each school, including HES, and see what is my best option!

[Gvh]

Please check your facts so as to avoid making ignorant statements. Students of the Harvard Extension School are students of Harvard University, and therefore constitute "Harvard students." The problem is that your conception of "Harvard students" is vague and ambiguous, and therefore applies to virtually the entire student population of Harvard University, including Extension. But still, I argue that Extension students are still "Harvard students." 

 

"HES Students" requires a bit of clarification as Extension students typically fall into two camps: (1) Course Takers; and (2) Degree Candidates. But regardless, either type of student can rightfully claim that he or she is a "Harvard student."

 

Course takers are folks who enroll in Extension courses typically for three reasons, though these reasons are by no means mutually exclusive: (i) to pursue intellectual interest; (ii) to meet continuing education requirements that may or may not culminate in receipt of a professional certificate; (iii) to complete pre admission course requirements for Extension's degree programs (AA, ALB, and MLA). Course Takers are not granted full campus privileges, but they have access to Grossman library and are even given the coveted "@fas.harvard.edu" e-mail address, which they may use so long as they are enrolled in courses. Since Course Takers take courses through the Harvard Extension School, which is one of thirteen schools under the umbrella of Harvard University (e.g. Harvard College, Harvard Law School, Divinity School, etc.), they can rightfully claim to be "Harvard students." 

 

Degree candidates are granted access to virtually all of Harvard University's facilities including all its libraries, museums, career services center, etc. (I say "virtually" because on-campus housing is not available to Extension students). Additionally, Extension alumni are full-fledged alumni of Harvard University. Therefore, Degree Candidates can rightfully claim that they are in fact "Harvard students."

 

Moreover, Degree Candidates should rightfully claim their status as "Harvard students." They must successfully pass the "Test of Critical Reading and Analytic Writing" in order to earn a place in the gate-keeper pre admission course that is Expository Writing; they must then pass Expos with a 'B' or better. Expos has served as a requirement of the Harvard College Writing Program for ages and is notable because even literary icon T.S. Eliot struggled in the course. (Master's-Level Degree Candidates must pass a proseminar course in their field). Degree candidates must also pass two other pre admission courses with a 'B' or better before they are eligible to apply to the programs. Yes. Extension still requires a formal application even after students clear the pre admission hurdles. Moreover, Extension degree programs require that a minimum number of credits be taken on campus and with Harvard instructors, but students can earn degrees by taking courses exclusively with Harvard faculty if they so desire. From a qualitative standpoint, if a student takes Harvard courses (especially those taught by Harvard faculty), then she constitutes a "Harvard student."

 

Both Course Takers and Degree Candidates constitute "Harvard students." If you feel that Extension students should clarify their affiliation with the University, then the onus should be on you to avoid using such a vague and ambiguous conception as "Harvard students." Please do not attempt to denigrate Extension students for meeting the standards set by your own vague conception of "Harvard students." 

 

As a TA at Harvard Extension, I thought I would add my $2. On one hand, yes HES students are "Harvard students" for most intensive purposes (access to libraries, email account, what have you) however having attended "real" Harvard myself, I can say that there is a range on both sides of the fence. Some of the classes at "real" Harvard are, in fact, much harder than the classes I TA for or have experienced at HES. And the same is true for the opposite. However, the reality is that it is harder to get into "real" Harvard, since HES is an open-enrollment program. Furthermore, I would not compare HES admission to the liberal arts program to a degree program at another Harvard school because the admissions standards are simply not comparable; as an example, students at HES don't even need to prove they have appropriate competence in written English. :/ This has indeed proven problematic in my TA experiences...

Edited April 17, 2014 by Gvh

[Crimson2014]

HES is an open-enrollment program.

 

False. You clearly did not read my post; and even if you did, you did not engage in the type of "close reading" that Harvard's writing program emphasizes. Extension courses open-enrollment, but Extension degree programs are not.  

 

the reality is that it is harder to get into "real" Harvard

 

You claim to have attended "real Harvard," which, last I checked, is not the name of one of the 13 schools of Harvard University. Would you care to specify your affiliation with Harvard University?  Also, if Extension is not "real Harvard," then what do you consider it to be? 

 

The admissions process is different for all 13 schools of Harvard University. To compare any two schools would be to compare apples and avocados. The admissions process of Extension is different from Harvard College just as the process is different between Harvard Law School and the Divinity School. Because the processes are so different, one cannot, with any degree of certainty, say that one is "harder."

 

If what you are gauging is exclusivity, then I will tell you that only a small fraction of Extension course takers ultimately earn degrees. Extension's programs are designed to winnow the pool so that only those students who are worthy Harvard's academic rigor earn a degree. Take a look at the numbers. Extension's total number of course takers is 13,000, yet Extension conferred 650 degrees last year. By  comparison, Harvard College conferred 1,651 degrees. And keep in mind the Extension degrees comprised both undergraduate and graduate degrees. Point being, Extension's graduation figures are minuscule compared to the rest of Harvard, which means that degree programs are every bit as exclusive as other Harvard schools. For these reasons, Harvard University bestows Extension degree candidates with full privileges and status as "Harvard students." 

 

Also, if there is one point that Harvard emphasizes over and over again, it's that "reality" is entirely subjective and situated based on one's perspective. 

My perspective is that self-professed "real Harvard" students, like yourself, do not understand how exclusive Extension's degree programs are. Folks from other Harvard schools are often quick to denigrate Extension because they feel that the existence of the School somehow devalues their own accomplishments. But because of Extension's exclusivity, the School does not dilute the Harvard brand, nor should you feel that Extension devalues your own accomplishments. Again, look at the numbers.   

 

I would not compare HES admission to the liberal arts program to a degree program at another Harvard school

 

Maybe you would not compare the two, but you should. You fail to understand that while there are unique Extension courses, these courses' curricula are still mandated by the Harvard Faculty of Arts and Sciences. Moreover, Extension students can and do take courses through Harvard College as well as several of the graduate schools (Business, Divinity, GSAS, etc.). In these instances, there is no difference in the courses because the Extension student is taking, say, a Harvard College course. In this way, the courses are not just comparable; they are identical. As for degree programs, a student could earn an Extension degree entirely by taking courses through other Harvard Schools. The only difference between the two programs would be the school affiliation.  

 

I can say that there is a range on both sides of the fence.

 

And was there not a "range" among students in your classes at "real Harvard"? When I take classes through Harvard College, I see quite a range of intellectual capacity among those students. 

 

Some of the classes at "real" Harvard are, in fact, much harder than the classes I TA for or have experienced at HES.

 

Of course. Some courses are simply more difficult than others. I'm sure that you took classes at "real Harvard" that you found to be more easy and some that you found more difficult. The only fair comparison would be to compare a course that is offered at both the Extension School, and another school within Harvard. As I said before, the courses, as well as the requirements in almost every circumstance are identical. And in some instances, Extension students outperform students from other Harvard schools.

 

students at HES don't even need to prove they have appropriate competence in written English.

 

I can understand how students' lack of English comprehension would be stressful for you. But again, there's a drastic divide between course takers and degree candidates. There are numerous checks in place to ensure English competency for degree candidates, and with respect to course takers who are not proficient, they are ignoring Extension's policy and you do have recourse.

 

With courses, there are stated guidelines but students do seem to be on the "honor system." But know that these students are violating Extension's policy and you do have recourse: Per Extension's policy, "[students] may be dropped from a course for a full-tuition refund if the instructor determines before the full-tuition refund deadline that [they] lack the English proficiency required for the course." 

 

With respect to degree candidates, "[students] must take the International English Language Testing System (IELTS) academic test and earn a score of at least 7.0, or take the Internet-based Test of English as a Foreign Language  (TOEFL) and score at least 100." Additionally, students must pass the Test of Critical Reading and Writing Skills in order to enroll in Expos, which is a required "gate-keeper" course for all Extension degree candidates. Students must then pass Expos with a 'B' or better in order to matriculate. Considering all these hurdles, it would be very difficult for students who are not proficient in English to matriculate into Extension's degree programs.

Edited April 21, 2014 by Crimson2014

[Gvh]

False. You clearly did not read my post; and even if you did, you did not engage in the type of "close reading" that Harvard's writing program emphasizes. Extension courses open-enrollment, but Extension degree programs are not.  

 

 

You claim to have attended "real Harvard," which, last I checked, is not the name of one of the 13 schools of Harvard University. Would you care to specify your affiliation with Harvard University?  Also, if Extension is not "real Harvard," then what do you consider it to be? 

 

The admissions process is different for all 13 schools of Harvard University. To compare any two schools would be to compare apples and avocados. The admissions process of Extension is different from Harvard College just as the process is different between Harvard Law School and the Divinity School. Because the processes are so different, one cannot, with any degree of certainty, say that one is "harder."

 

If what you are gauging is exclusivity, then I will tell you that only a small fraction of Extension course takers ultimately earn degrees. Extension's programs are designed to winnow the pool so that only those students who are worthy Harvard's academic rigor earn a degree. Take a look at the numbers. Extension's total number of course takers is 13,000, yet Extension conferred 650 degrees last year. By  comparison, Harvard College conferred 1,651 degrees. And keep in mind the Extension degrees comprised both undergraduate and graduate degrees. Point being, Extension's graduation figures are minuscule compared to the rest of Harvard, which means that degree programs are every bit as exclusive as other Harvard schools. For these reasons, Harvard University bestows Extension degree candidates with full privileges and status as "Harvard students." 

 

Also, if there is one point that Harvard emphasizes over and over again, it's that "reality" is entirely subjective and situated based on one's perspective. 

My perspective is that self-professed "real Harvard" students, like yourself, do not understand how exclusive Extension's degree programs are. Folks from other Harvard schools are often quick to denigrate Extension because they feel that the existence of the School somehow devalues their own accomplishments. But because of Extension's exclusivity, the School does not dilute the Harvard brand, nor should you feel that Extension devalues your own accomplishments. Again, look at the numbers.   

 

 

Maybe you would not compare the two, but you should. You fail to understand that while there are unique Extension courses, these courses' curricula are still mandated by the Harvard Faculty of Arts and Sciences. Moreover, Extension students can and do take courses through Harvard College as well as several of the graduate schools (Business, Divinity, GSAS, etc.). In these instances, there is no difference in the courses because the Extension student is taking, say, a Harvard College course. In this way, the courses are not just comparable; they are identical. As for degree programs, a student could earn an Extension degree entirely by taking courses through other Harvard Schools. The only difference between the two programs would be the school affiliation.  

 

 

And was there not a "range" among students in your classes at "real Harvard"? When I take classes through Harvard College, I see quite a range of intellectual capacity among those students. 

 

 

Of course. Some courses are simply more difficult than others. I'm sure that you took classes at "real Harvard" that you found to be more easy and some that you found more difficult. The only fair comparison would be to compare a course that is offered at both the Extension School, and another school within Harvard. As I said before, the courses, as well as the requirements in almost every circumstance are identical. And in some instances, Extension students outperform students from other Harvard schools.

 

 

I can understand how students' lack of English comprehension would be stressful for you. But again, there's a drastic divide between course takers and degree candidates. There are numerous checks in place to ensure English competency for degree candidates, and with respect to course takers who are not proficient, they are ignoring Extension's policy and you do have recourse.

 

With courses, there are stated guidelines but students do seem to be on the "honor system." But know that these students are violating Extension's policy and you do have recourse: Per Extension's policy, "[students] may be dropped from a course for a full-tuition refund if the instructor determines before the full-tuition refund deadline that [they] lack the English proficiency required for the course." 

 

With respect to degree candidates, "[students] must take the International English Language Testing System (IELTS) academic test and earn a score of at least 7.0, or take the Internet-based Test of English as a Foreign Language  (TOEFL) and score at least 100." Additionally, students must pass the Test of Critical Reading and Writing Skills in order to enroll in Expos, which is a required "gate-keeper" course for all Extension degree candidates. Students must then pass Expos with a 'B' or better in order to matriculate. Considering all these hurdles, it would be very difficult for students who are not proficient in English to matriculate into Extension's degree programs.

 

Crimson2014;

 

The bottom line of your post, if I understand it correctly, is that the Extension degree program (as opposed to simply taking classes) requires a number of admittance "hoops" that are comparable to other Harvard schools. From my experience, I can't comment on the "intellectual differences" or "potential" HES attendees have compared to other Harvard students since in the classes I TA for at HES, I am not informed which students are in the ALB program and which ones are just taking the class.  I suppose my frustration with HES, which I did not elaborate on in my previous post, is the fact that some students simply taking HES classes in, say, business or law are boasting on their resume that they went to Harvard Business School or Harvard Law School, which are both considered highly prestigious and notoriously selective. 

I am not slating the Extension school program, since I am sure this is a good way for people to get into a good program they might not otherwise have access to. The only thing I find problematic is when HES students lie on their resumes, which I do think overvalues their accomplishments. 

Edited May 2, 2014 by Gvh

[Crimson2014]

Gvh,

 

thanks for your response! It seems as though we are moving closer toward reaching a consensus.

 

To recap, user Crucial BBQ initially made a remark that I believe relates to your concerns: 

 

HES students sometimes claim to be Harvard students, which they are not

 

I contested this assertion based on the fact that it is simply not accurate. Extension is one of the 13 schools of Harvard University; so therefore, Extension students, as well as students from any of the other 12 schools are "Harvard students." Crucial BBQ seemed concerned that Extension students might misrepresent themselves as students of Harvard College. But as I pointed out, Crucial's descriptor, "Harvard students" is so vague that it applies any student of Harvard University. My suggestion was rather than denigrate all Extension students (who are technically not misrepresenting themselves by claiming to be "Harvard students), the onus should be on him to ask for clarification as to the students affiliation with the University. I also made a normative claim that for various reasons, HES degree candidates should rightfully claim their status as "Harvard students."   

 

Responding directly to your remarks:

 

The bottom line of your post, if I understand it correctly, is that the Extension degree program (as opposed to simply taking classes) requires a number of admittance "hoops" that are comparable to other Harvard schools.

 

My answer would depend on what you deem to be comparable. With respect to the actual admissions processes, no. That would be comparing apples to avocados. But I would argue that with respect to standards, yes, the difficulty in jumping through Extension's necessary "hoops" (as you call them) is comparable to other Harvard schools. For instance, the differences in admissions processes between Extension and Harvard College are vast. But both schools have strict regulators in place to winnow out applicants whom admissions deems as either not serious, and/or lacking the skills necessary to complete the respective degrees. The difference is that HC winnows out applicants up front, whereas Extension allows applicants to winnow themselves out after taking courses. And Extension's system works wonderfully in this regard (as corroborated by the comparatively low number of Extension graduates that I listed above). 

 

Again, I would make a normative claim that Extension's admissions processes should differ from Harvard College because the average age of Extension students is 33 years; therefore, HC metrics such as SAT scores, high school GPAs, and Model UN victories were a lifetime ago for these applicants, and are unlikely to reflect applicants' current skills intellectual abilities. Extension's solution is that rather than scrutinize applicants' past achievements, the school is concerned primarily with their "ability to do honor's level work at Harvard" in the three pre admission courses (though there is still a formal application process).

 

Moreover, there are strict financial regulators at play: Extension's pre admissions courses do not qualify for federal loans, which means that applicants must secure their own private funding. Therefore, there are financial disincentives for students who are not capable of the academic rigor. I have no data to support my claim, but in theory, this financial regulator should deter folks who are not serious, from enrolling in courses. I believe that much of the disdain for Extension exists because people are misinformed about how strict the admissions standards are. 

 

I am not slating the Extension school program, since I am sure this is a good way for people to get into a good program they might not otherwise have access to.

 

I agree. Though I would add that many Extension students do have access to other quality programs, but opt for Extension for various reasons, such as the ability to complete much of the degree through distance-leanring courses. As for myself, I enrolled in HES, rather than apply to HC, because even though I would have been a highly competitive applicant for the latter school, I was 30 years old and married at the time. Why would I want to leave my spouse, move to Cambridge, and bunk with an 18 year old when I can obtain virtually the same education, networking opportunities, and overall prestige through Extension?

 

I suppose my frustration with HES, which I did not elaborate on in my previous post, is the fact that some students simply taking HES classes in, say, business or law are boasting on their resume that they went to Harvard Business School or Harvard Law School, which are both considered highly prestigious and notoriously selective.

 

The only thing I find problematic is when HES students lie on their resumes, which I do think overvalues their accomplishments.

 

Agreed. If Extension Students makes such claims, then they are misrepresenting themselves, plain and simple.

 

That said, some Extension degree candidates do take courses at other Harvard Schools. And if these students qualify for what is known as "Special Student Status," then courses they take through say, Harvard GSAS or Harvard Business School are listed as such on their transcripts. But still, these students can only rightfully claim that they "took courses" at any of these schools. 

 

Yes, I would agree that HBS and HLS are "notoriously selective" and "highly prestigious." But I would apply the same adjectives to Extension's degree programs. I already mentioned my thoughts on the selectivity. As for the prestige, Extension graduates are conferred full student status and are granted full Harvard alumni status after graduating; simply stated, the University, itself, holds tremendous prestige, which it confers upon Extension degree candidates.   

 

Moreover, Extension's degree programs are prestigious in that they attract highly accomplished individuals. For instance, a fellow student in one of my government courses actually ran for U.S. Congress in 201o (on the ticket of one of the two major parties). Another holds a high-level position in D.C. for the Department of Homeland Security. Alumni include the former president and vice president of the nation of Columbia, and last year's graduating class included a head honcho from one the most well known tech companies (rhymes with Crisco). As an aside, I greatly appreciate the practical knowledge and expertise that these highly accomplished individuals provide in class discussions, in addition to that offered by professors from HBS or HLS. But I believe that the University's prestige attracts these luminaries. 

 

In sum, Extension degree candidates may rightfully list "Harvard University" on their resumes and cvs, but claiming to hold affiliation to other Harvard Schools is not acceptable. I wish that students wouldn't engage in such deception, but I suppose if you are skeptical, you could ask for further clarification. 

Edited May 4, 2014 by Crimson2014

[GeoDUDE!]

If I can only argue enough my dreams will come true.

[MastersHoping]

You claim to have attended "real Harvard," which, last I checked, is not the name of one of the 13 schools of Harvard University. Would you care to specify your affiliation with Harvard University?  Also, if Extension is not "real Harvard," then what do you consider it to be? 

 

 

 

HAHAHAHA. Crimson2014 is hilarious! 

I always love reading Crimson2014's posts - they're funny and informative. 

Edited May 4, 2014 by MastersHoping