I'm Torn: Madison (La Follete) v. HKS v. Berkeley (GSPP) v. UCLA (Luskin)

[sklorange]

Hello everyone,

 

I am really torn with my decision for my MPP/MPA degree. I got accepted into all of the schools that I applied for, but I got VERY different funding sources for each one. Here is what I have so far:

 

Harvard Kennedy School - NO FELLOWSHIP (offering me about $74k in loans for the first year ONLY, so worst case scenario, I leave with REALLY deep 6-digit debt)

 

Berkeley's Goldman School - NO FELLOWSHIP (about $46.5k in loans per year is the expected; a TA or research assistantship is not guaranteed at all, so I can leave with more than $90k in debt)

 

Madison's La Follete School - HUGE FELLOWSHIP (my out-of-state tuition and all other fees are covered for the 1st year, plus I get a $19k stipend; for the 2nd year, I get a guaranteed TA or assistantship that covers all of tuition for that year AND provides me a $9.5k stipend for living expenses - basically a REALLY hard deal to pass up)

 

UCLA's Luskin School - initially, no assistance, but after I told them about Madison, they "suddenly" came up with an $18k fellowship and they're "trying" to get me full tuition coverage for the 1st year and MAYBE a guaranteed TA or assistantship for the 2nd year; they told me to get an extension from Madison to see exactly how much they would be able to offer me AFTER April 15th

 

USC's Price School - I got the Dean Merit's Scholarship, which only covers HALF of tuition fees, which is good, but doesn't cover as much as I'd like. My calculations bring me to about $81k of debt for this degree.

 

Ann Arbor's Ford School - I only got a $10k fellowship, which isn't much considering I would be paying out-of-state tuition (it's one of the top schools, and I have some friends at this school, but I would be taking out too much in loans for this one)
 

 

I also got accepted into Stanford, but I've already crossed that one out for other reasons. 

 

I am noticing that not a lot of people here are applying to the Madison program, and I'm curious as to why. It's a highly ranked program in a relatively very affordable city. Because of the "full-ride" offer I got from them, it's really hard to try to pass it down. HKS and GSPP were my top choices, but their financial aid packages scare me. If I wrack up 6-digit (or near 6-digit) debt for an MPP or MPA degree, I feel like I wouldn't break even. I want to work for the public sector (state level) and maybe even go back for a PhD one day, so with that in mind, what would you guys think is in my best interest? I would REALLY love to hear from people that are in or have graduated from any of these programs! 

 

Also, I am planning on having an education policy focus (K-12 issues), so I heard that Madison and Ford are particularly good schools for that. 

I know that this is a "great" problem to have, and I'm honored beyond belief, but at the same time, I am really torn. I don't want to make a decision that I will regret.

 

Of course, because of the amazing fellowship offer, I am leaning toward Madison. However, I am a Californian who eventually wants to work with ed policy in California, so I'm not sure if going for my MPA in Madison is kind of like shooting myself in the leg relative to just toughing it up, accepting the loans, and going to Berkeley (or even UCLA). 

At this point, I am open to ANY type of advice from ANYONE who is going through a similar situation (or HAS gone through a similar situation). Please and thank you!

 

Sincerely,

Oscar 

[MJA87]

If Luskin comes through with all they're promising, I'd be leaning towards them. If not, I'd take the money from La Follete and graduate with little to no debt. Of course a lot of this choice depends on your career aspirations and long term geographical preferences.

[pavlik]

The Wisconsin offer is definitely hard to pass up, but it may constrain your ability a bit to be in California for a career after you graduate. Obviously, Berkley/UCLA/USC are all much better-placed for this. It sounds like UCLA will come through with more $$ for you, so [in my opinion] you should definitely ask for an extension from your top choices, explaining the situation to them. Obviously Wisconsin won't offer any more $, but just explain that you need more time to think through the huge move to WI and all, they should be understanding. If getting an extension is tricky, then ask UCLA if they can come through with anything quicker. 

 

If nothing changes from your current predicament, then I'd probably opt for Wisconsin and a debt-free degree. But I suppose the sticking point is location. How set are you on California? If you feel that better name recognition/network/internship or part-time opportunities in CA are worth some debt, then UCLA could be worth some debt. The general oft-repeated rule is not to take on more debt than your starting annual salary will be, so if you can keep loans under $25k a year (assuming your job post-grad will pay $50k), then one of the CA schools could be worth it to you. 

 

Also, Wisconsin's cold. My parents moved to Milwaukee from the South when I was a baby, and hated the weather so much they went back after just 2 winters. They've always said the people were nice though, so there's that. 

[sklorange]

The Wisconsin offer is definitely hard to pass up, but it may constrain your ability a bit to be in California for a career after you graduate. Obviously, Berkley/UCLA/USC are all much better-placed for this. It sounds like UCLA will come through with more $$ for you, so [in my opinion] you should definitely ask for an extension from your top choices, explaining the situation to them. Obviously Wisconsin won't offer any more $, but just explain that you need more time to think through the huge move to WI and all, they should be understanding. If getting an extension is tricky, then ask UCLA if they can come through with anything quicker. 

 

If nothing changes from your current predicament, then I'd probably opt for Wisconsin and a debt-free degree. But I suppose the sticking point is location. How set are you on California? If you feel that better name recognition/network/internship or part-time opportunities in CA are worth some debt, then UCLA could be worth some debt. The general oft-repeated rule is not to take on more debt than your starting annual salary will be, so if you can keep loans under $25k a year (assuming your job post-grad will pay $50k), then one of the CA schools could be worth it to you. 

 

Also, Wisconsin's cold. My parents moved to Milwaukee from the South when I was a baby, and hated the weather so much they went back after just 2 winters. They've always said the people were nice though, so there's that. 

 

That's what I'm planning at the moment. I asked for the extension. If I get it, I'll wait it out. If not, then I guess I need to start shopping for snow weather clothing. I am pretty set on wanting to work in California, which Madison does have some contact with (they've mentioned students of theirs that have moved on to work in SF and LA). I agree that one of the California schools would be a lot better suited for connecting me to a good California post-grad opportunity, but unless I can feasibly walk away with $25k or less of debt, I'm not sure if UCLA is worth it as much. Madison is a lot older and a much more reputable program relative to it; but the California factor does add a lot to it.

Thanks to everyone for the advice! Any more advice would still really help, especially people from any of these schools!

[lbjane]

You might be able to overcome some of the geography concerns with a summer internship between your first and second year.  If you do an education internship in California that summer, that could help you get your foot in the door in California. 

[sklorange]

You might be able to overcome some of the geography concerns with a summer internship between your first and second year.  If you do an education internship in California that summer, that could help you get your foot in the door in California. 

 

That's an excellent idea, and I will definitely look into that! I hope it's as likely as I'd like for it to be! 

[gwualum4mpp]

 

Berkeley's Goldman School - NO FELLOWSHIP (about $46.5k in loans per year is the expected; a TA or research assistantship is not guaranteed at all, so I can leave with more than $90k in debt)

Hello Oscar, congratulations on your acceptances! They are definitely commendable.

I just wanted to comment that you may be overstating the costs of GSPP. I was under the impression that GSI/GSR positions are fairly obtainable for GSPP students and this was reinforced on admitted students day, which I just got back from. They mentioned that about 60 percent of students take on these positions. Some choose not to apply, but for others they did mention that sometimes there's a conflict in scheduling that may get in the way of it, etc (in other words, it's not 100% guaranteed).

I presume you will get in-state tuition? This also makes the school more affordable, and if you don't have it, you can acquire it and pay instate tuition your second year. The admissions director was approachable and helpful on this matter.

Goldman is strong in social policy and I was also impressed by the number of students that also expressed an interest in education policy (it is also my area of interest). I did read somewhere that Ford is very strong in education. For Goldman, I got the impression at students do not pass so much through a "policy area" curricular track but that they are taught a strong core set of skills that they can then apply to their issue of interests via enrollment in electives. I chose Goldman because I have experience and am knowledgeable about my area of interest, but I want to hone my quant and analytical skills to better analyze data and policy documents on the matter. I think Goldman is excellent for this!

Forgive the lengthiness but I am pumped from just having visited this weekend. Good luck in your choice!

[uncgrad2009]

My advice: take the money and run.  Unless you can get something binding and in writing from UCLA, I wouldn't go on happenstance.  I have heard that Goldman is notoriously stingy with merit aid so I'm not really surprised by what you just said there.  I have heard the same about Harvard.

 

I agree with lbjane.  You should definitely look into doing an internship in California during the summer between your 1st and 2nd years.  Wisconsin is a fantastic school and is tied in the rankings with Michigan.  I also got accepted to Ford but will not be going there as I'm out of state and the fellowship offer I received from them was very low.  However, at the end of the day, you need to make the decision that is best for you but would strongly encourage you to really evaluate what "value added" you would be getting by passing up Wisconsin's offer.  

 

Good luck!

[MPPgal]

My advice: as risk and debt averse as I am the Harvard name is worth it, that does not apply to any other school other than WWS, get in debt it will pay for itself.

[samiam]

My advice: as risk and debt averse as I am the Harvard name is worth it, that does not apply to any other school other than WWS, get in debt it will pay for itself.

 

How will it pay for itself?  If you mean it is 'worth it' in terms of experiences, networks etc, then maybe, but that doesn't translate into the cold hard cash you need to pay back your loans. The Harvard name won't get you higher pay for government work (see, for example, numerous posts on this board talking about govt hiring scales), and most non-profits in the field the OP is interested in don't have spare cash to throw around just for prestige - it might get you a couple of thousand extra in salary if you're lucky, but that's not going to make much of a dent in $100K+ of debt. HKS might get you better access to the top consulting firms, which will give you serious cash if that's what you want to do, but that's not what most people who do MPP degrees want to do.  

Edited April 10, 2014 by samiam

[sklorange]

How will it pay for itself?  If you mean it is 'worth it' in terms of experiences, networks etc, then maybe, but that doesn't translate into the cold hard cash you need to pay back your loans. The Harvard name won't get you higher pay for government work (see, for example, numerous posts on this board talking about govt hiring scales), and most non-profits in the field the OP is interested in don't have spare cash to throw around just for prestige - it might get you a couple of thousand extra in salary if you're lucky, but that's not going to make much of a dent in $100K+ of debt. HKS might get you better access to the top consulting firms, which will give you serious cash if that's what you want to do, but that's not what most people who do MPP degrees want to do.  

 

Thank you! Every time someone tells me to just take the debt because the Harvard name is "worth" it, I get so nervous. I don't want to take the consulting route, so I won't be making much money, especially right afterwards. I'm afraid I'm making a mistake by leaning toward the "free-ride" option of Madison and later regretting it, but I am very averse to debt. 

[uncgrad2009]

How will it pay for itself?  If you mean it is 'worth it' in terms of experiences, networks etc, then maybe, but that doesn't translate into the cold hard cash you need to pay back your loans. The Harvard name won't get you higher pay for government work (see, for example, numerous posts on this board talking about govt hiring scales), and most non-profits in the field the OP is interested in don't have spare cash to throw around just for prestige - it might get you a couple of thousand extra in salary if you're lucky, but that's not going to make much of a dent in $100K+ of debt. HKS might get you better access to the top consulting firms, which will give you serious cash if that's what you want to do, but that's not what most people who do MPP degrees want to do.  

 

 

I agree with this assessment precisely and I can definitely tell you (I'm actually a career fed so I know what I'm talking about)from the federal government perspective that it doesn't matter where your advanced degree came from. For example, with the PMF program, I know people who are PMFS that went to Harvard and Princeton but I also know PMFs that went to state schools. The first review of any federal job application is only looked at by HR specialists and assessed on the core criteria in the job announcement. It isn't even seen by the hiring manager(who makes the final selection) until after the first review.  Thus, if you're fresh out of grad school but have less work experience than the other candidate, there's a good chance that you're not going to make the next cut in the hiring process.

[MPAallday]

Thank you! Every time someone tells me to just take the debt because the Harvard name is "worth" it, I get so nervous. I don't want to take the consulting route, so I won't be making much money, especially right afterwards. I'm afraid I'm making a mistake by leaning toward the "free-ride" option of Madison and later regretting it, but I am very averse to debt. 

When it comes to policy schools, six figure debt is ludicrous -- regardless of the name. If I was you I'd be leaning towards Luskin, since it seems like UCLA is going to come through with sizable funding for you. La Follete also seems like another solid option. Ask for extensions from your choices if at all possible.

[bktz]

Sklorange, send you a PM with more detailed thoughts, but a few things to add to the thread that might be useful to others:

 

-For anyone looking at taking on debt for grad school who is pretty confident they want to work in public service afterwards, it's worth looking into the federal income-based repayment and public service loan forgiveness programs. If you have eligible (direct federal) loans and sign up for IBR, you pay back your loans based on a % of your income. The downside of this is that if this amount is lower than what you'd pay under a standard repayment plan, it can take longer (perhaps much longer) to repay and you'll end up paying a lot more total in interest. However, this is where the loan forgiveness part comes in: if you make 120 payments under IBR while working in a public service job (government or nonprofit registered in the US), under the public service loan forgiveness plan you can have any remaining debt forgiven. There are a lot of details here I'm glossing over, such as what 120 payments means, what loans are eligible, and what kind of organization you have to work for, so I'd highly recommend doing further research on your own.

 

-Right now, there is no cap on the amount of debt that can be forgiven at the 10-year mark. HOWEVER, there is a proposal in the President's budget plan from last month to cap the total amount of possible forgiveness at around $58,000. (Remember, this is forgiveness on any remaining loans after you've made 10 years of payments.)

 

-My take: Thanks to the IBR system, you don't have to worry as much about going broke due to your monthly loan payments, and if you're sure you want to work in public service then the PSLF combined with IBR could be a really great option. BUT this does NOT mean you should take on an unlimited amount of debt. Even though there doesn't yet exist a cap on forgiveness, I'd bet a lot that in the 12-ish years until those on this thread are eligible for forgiveness, a cap will be set. So you shouldn't take out $200K in debt counting on paying off $40K of it slowly over 10 years under IBR and having $160K forgiven - I doubt that will happen. But if you're considering whether to take on moderate five-figure debt, and don't mind 10-15% of your discretionary income (again, do some research on the government sites to see what that means) going towards loan repayments for 10 years or so, this seems like a great option to make a bit of grad school debt more manageable. 

 

Resources:

IBR - http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/understand/plans/income-based

PSLF - http://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/charts/public-service

[bktz]

I should clarify in the above: this only applies to US federal direct loans (e.g. GradPLUS, Stafford, etc.). Private loans, which I know many international students have to use, unfortunately are ineligible. 

[sklorange]

I was about to accept Madison today when Berkeley called me this morning! All of a sudden, they want to negotiate a deal for funding once I mentioned I was more than likely going to choose Madison's "free ride" offer. She is going to call me tomorrow at 10:30am to let me know how much she was able to secure. This is exciting. I hope it's more than just a few k! Wish me luck! 

[WaltFindlay]

Good Luck, Fingers crossed!

[sklorange]

Good Luck, Fingers crossed!

It worked! I got my 1st year tuition and fees completely covered, a $10k stipend for the first year, and my $8k professional degree fees are also covered for the second year. I would still need to take out some loans for living costs, but this is SO manageable for a Berkeley degree! I am so insanely grateful that UCB pulled through!  

[uncgrad2009]

It worked! I got my 1st year tuition and fees completely covered, a $10k stipend for the first year, and my $8k professional degree fees are also covered for the second year. I would still need to take out some loans for living costs, but this is SO manageable for a Berkeley degree! I am so insanely grateful that UCB pulled through!

 

 

Congratulations man!  This must be so insanely exciting for you!  That's wonderful that they came through for you!  Goldman would be a wonderful place to study for two years (especially given your career goals!).  Again, congratulations!

[MPAallday]

It worked! I got my 1st year tuition and fees completely covered, a $10k stipend for the first year, and my $8k professional degree fees are also covered for the second year. I would still need to take out some loans for living costs, but this is SO manageable for a Berkeley degree! I am so insanely grateful that UCB pulled through!

Congratulations! That's amazing! I hope you can contain the excitement as you head to Cal!

[WaltFindlay]

Sounds terrific, hearty congratulations!

[Kaneisha]

Congratulations! This was an awesome example of you using one school's offer to get more aid from your top choice school. I get asked about this same scenario a lot. If other folks are wondering how to negotiate with a policy school to give you more aid, I wrote a blog post recently on the topic that could be useful: http://theartofapplying.com/sample-email-to-request-more-fellowship-aid/

[sklorange]

Congratulations! This was an awesome example of you using one school's offer to get more aid from your top choice school. I get asked about this same scenario a lot. If other folks are wondering how to negotiate with a policy school to give you more aid, I wrote a blog post recently on the topic that could be useful: http://theartofapplying.com/sample-email-to-request-more-fellowship-aid/

 

Thanks! It's crazy how common it is for students to go into the grad application process with absolutely no knowledge of the negotiation game with admissions. I literally went in thinking it was "too disrespectful" to ask for more aid, but my professor taught me a few tricks. I think your blog is great. I would  have loved to put those tips to use to potentially have gotten a better deal from HKS, but what's done is done, and as a Californian, I'm more than okay with Berkeley (although, name-wise, of course it can't compete with Harvard). 

All of this has really gotten me more energized to work with education policy in the future. Initially, I am a lot more interested in K-12 education, but looking back at this whole process, college affordability in general really needs some substantive attention. This "you have to either work AND beg hard enough to be "considered" to be awarded your fellowship OR accept a debt-burdened life" structure that we have for prospective working class students is abysmal. One student loan horror story is enough to affect an entire community's perception of the "true value" of a graduate (or maybe even an undergraduate) degree. 

[Kaneisha]

Sklorange, I know that's right! I'm one of those working class students saddled with student loan debt—over $130,000, most of it from HKS. I even got a small fellowship from HKS, but not much (although I was a semi-finalist for a full ride). Life is NOT the same when you graduate with a lot of debt. I try to drive this home as much as possible with my clients, especially when they are lackadaisical about the amount of debt they are taking on. There are real things you have to give up when you have that much debt. There are loan forgiveness programs, but they aren't as robust as most students perceive them to be. Please go and do good work in that field!