"What grade would you give this draft?"

[comp12]

Ugh, how do you respond to this question?

 

And, how do you respond to the even more rage-inducing, follow-up question that usually comes right after: "What do you want me to do SPECIFICALLY? I want to fix each of my specific mistakes, so that I can get an A."

 

The following is a conversation that's happened multiple times this year:

 

STUDENT: So, I got your comments and feedback on my draft. But, you didn't tell me, what grade would you this draft if it were the final assignment?

 

ME: Well, that wouldn't be a fair thought experiment for either one of us, because it ISN'T the final draft. The key for the moment is to think about the potential ways you could improve it during the revision process.

 

STUDENT: Yes, I understand that. But, I just want to get a grasp on your evaluation and grading philosophy. Can you tell me what grade you personally would consider this draft? Also, while I understood the feedback you gave and the questions you asked, can you give me some ACTUAL, specific, step-by-step instructions on what mistakes I made, and how I can fix them, in order to get an A?

 

ME: ........[facepalm] WAIT, SO YOU WANT ME TO REVISE YOUR PAPER FOR YOU, IS THAT RIGHT?

[TakeruK]

I don't grade "traditional" essays/papers like I might write if I was in a humanities/social sciences course, but I have graded lab reports before and received similar questions. 

 

My answer to these type of questions is to create a list of expectations or basically a marking rubric. For example, for lab reports, I might list some items such as:

 

Experiment procedure fully explained.

References properly listed.

Introduction provides background information on the experiment and summarizes the motivation for the experiment.

Example calculations are provided for every calculation.

 

etc. (I think a list like this can be easily modified for any course)

 

So, when a student asks me a question like "What can I do to get an A?", I tell them to pull out the marking rubric/expectations I handed out and to follow that and do it well. Depending on the course, I might specify that minimally meeting all the expectations will earn them a "B+" or "A-" or whatever the grading scheme will be and the top grades will be awarded to papers that not just contains everything in the list but does them well. 

 

These items are still open to interpretation (i.e. what is minimal and what is "doing a good job") so I either provide an example paper from previous years/classes (with the example student's permission) or more commonly (because I don't really want to use someone else's work), I find a real scientific journal article that explains their experiment well and direct students to follow that example.

 

Ultimately, I do think it is our job to be very clear on what the grading criteria is and exactly how they will earn/lose marks. However, that only needs to go as far as stating what we are looking for when we grade, not actually telling them how to fix every item and/or do it for them!

[Guest |||]

I don't feel the student was unfair in their request.

 

Learning how to write well requires specifically showing what mistakes an individual made and how they may improve them.  This does not mean you comb through the entire essay and re-write the entire piece, but find an example or two of the general problems the student seems to have and resolve them with the student.  If the student struggles a lot, offer a suggestion.

 

I've never liked the TA who writes a lofty remark like "Could be written better", "Awkward wording", or other such vague statements without actually specifying where such occurs and potential fixes.  Learning should be guided, not thrown into a vague water of general good will.

[ss2player]

"An F, because it's a draft, not a final paper."

 

I agree with Takeru: show them a grading rubric and an example of a well done paper. That plus your comments is more than sufficient and frankly is even doing some of the work for them. (i.e. I'm sure the course material has examples already)

Edited May 2, 2014 by ss2player

[ExponentialDecay]

I've never liked the TA who writes a lofty remark like "Could be written better", "Awkward wording", or other such vague statements without actually specifying where such occurs and potential fixes.

 

That's all my professors have ever written on any of my papers. Probably because the step following from "awkward wording" is writing down how it should have been worded.

Edited May 2, 2014 by ExponentialDecay

[Crucial BBQ]

I don't feel the student was unfair in their request.

 

Learning how to write well requires specifically showing what mistakes an individual made and how they may improve them.  This does not mean you comb through the entire essay and re-write the entire piece, but find an example or two of the general problems the student seems to have and resolve them with the student.  If the student struggles a lot, offer a suggestion.

 

I've never liked the TA who writes a lofty remark like "Could be written better", "Awkward wording", or other such vague statements without actually specifying where such occurs and potential fixes.  Learning should be guided, not thrown into a vague water of general good will.

If a student does not know how to write a proper college paper of any sort then something is seriously wrong.  I mean, who wrote their admissions essays/SOPs? 

 

If I were in the OPs shoes I would tell this student that if s/he wants to be cuddled and walked-through everything to go back to high school. 

Edited May 3, 2014 by Crucial BBQ

[TakeruK]

I don't feel the student was unfair in their request.

 

Learning how to write well requires specifically showing what mistakes an individual made and how they may improve them.  This does not mean you comb through the entire essay and re-write the entire piece, but find an example or two of the general problems the student seems to have and resolve them with the student.  If the student struggles a lot, offer a suggestion.

 

I've never liked the TA who writes a lofty remark like "Could be written better", "Awkward wording", or other such vague statements without actually specifying where such occurs and potential fixes.  Learning should be guided, not thrown into a vague water of general good will.

 

I agree that it is not educational to just write things like "you could explain this better". But it's also not educational to just write down the "correct" sentence for them (especially since there is no single correct way). My solution would be to show them an example of what a well worded sentence/paragraph/essay/whatever looks like and point out the differences between their work and the example work. It's up to the student though, to figure out how to transform their sentences into a well written paper.

[hashslinger]

I don't feel the student was unfair in their request.

 

Learning how to write well requires specifically showing what mistakes an individual made and how they may improve them.  This does not mean you comb through the entire essay and re-write the entire piece, but find an example or two of the general problems the student seems to have and resolve them with the student.  If the student struggles a lot, offer a suggestion.

 

I've never liked the TA who writes a lofty remark like "Could be written better", "Awkward wording", or other such vague statements without actually specifying where such occurs and potential fixes.  Learning should be guided, not thrown into a vague water of general good will.

 

I don't think the student was necessarily unfair in their request either. They could just honestly be saying, "I gave this draft my all; I want to know where my writing skills stand as they are." This question is common among students who just graduated from high school or are used to STEM fields where there's a "right answer." 

 

However, it's also possible that the student is trolling. Back when I was a younger teacher I used to have students ask this question. If they got an answer they liked (because I was dumb enough to give it) they wouldn't bother to revise at all, which would defeat the purpose of a composition class that stresses revision. And then I would end up docking their grade for not revising (as "revision" was part of the rubric), and then they would get pissed at me for what they perceived to be my dishonesty. A bad situation for all involved.

 

Now, for the trolly student, I think that ss2player's answer is probably best. "If it came in like this I'd give it an F, because it hasn't been revised."

Edited May 3, 2014 by hashslinger

[Guest |||]

If a student does not know how to write a proper college paper of any sort then something is seriously wrong.  I mean, who wrote their admissions essays/SOPs? 

 

If I were in the OPs shoes I would tell this student that if s/he wants to be cuddled and walked-through everything to go back to high school. 

 

 

Coddling a student means explaining to them what their mistake was?  

 

Pretty awesome when a university education now settles for things we already knew prior to begining the class.  Transitions are important and flow is fundamental? What valuable insight, next you will tell me that good is good and great is great.

[St Andrews Lynx]

I think there is a difference between giving feedback after the final essay has been marked and before the student has turned in said draft (i.e, they want you to tell them how to make it into an A-grade essay rather than figuring it out by themselves). 

[comp12]

To follow up,

Thanks for everyone's comments.

This is a humanities context. It is a freshman composition class, where the goal is less to prove mastery of discipline/content, rather to produce persuasive writing.

We do have a thorough rubric. It is clear the emphasis is on argumentative strength and original analytical rigor.

Most students are, indeed, STEM students, who are used to things like "correct answers" and "mistakes." There is nothing that these students love more than receiving "corrective feedback" and to model their papers off of "perfect" essays.

Most have solid command of thr mechanics of writing, and the English language. Many have trouble in moving beyond a middle-school level Five-Paragraph-Essay.

[hashslinger]

I think there is a difference between giving feedback after the final essay has been marked and before the student has turned in said draft (i.e, they want you to tell them how to make it into an A-grade essay rather than figuring it out by themselves). 

 

Yeah, this.

 

And also, if a student gets back comments on a paper that they find confusing or vague (like "awk" or "needs to flow better") they could always just go and ask the instructor for clarification. I try to avoid writing such vague things on my students' papers, but who knows--sometimes constructive criticism is difficult to convey, and with 40 or 50 papers to grade, not every comment is going to be a work of art. I tell all my students to please, please come see me if any of my comments are unclear to them. At some point it's the student's responsibility to seek more feedback or clarification. If you're a student who just stews about your incompetent TA when you've never bothered to go to office hours, then your grade is ultimately your fault.

[Guest |||]

Yeah, this.

 

And also, if a student gets back comments on a paper that they find confusing or vague (like "awk" or "needs to flow better") they could always just go and ask the instructor for clarification. I try to avoid writing such vague things on my students' papers, but who knows--sometimes constructive criticism is difficult to convey, and with 40 or 50 papers to grade, not every comment is going to be a work of art. I tell all my students to please, please come see me if any of my comments are unclear to them. At some point it's the student's responsibility to seek more feedback or clarification. If you're a student who just stews about your incompetent TA when you've never bothered to go to office hours, then your grade is ultimately your fault.

 

Totally agree

 

And would apply the same logic if a student wants help with a draft.

[hashslinger]

To follow up,

Thanks for everyone's comments.

This is a humanities context. It is a freshman composition class, where the goal is less to prove mastery of discipline/content, rather to produce persuasive writing.

We do have a thorough rubric. It is clear the emphasis is on argumentative strength and original analytical rigor.

Most students are, indeed, STEM students, who are used to things like "correct answers" and "mistakes." There is nothing that these students love more than receiving "corrective feedback" and to model their papers off of "perfect" essays.

Most have solid command of thr mechanics of writing, and the English language. Many have trouble in moving beyond a middle-school level Five-Paragraph-Essay.

 

When someone asks you what grade you'd give their draft--it occurs to me that you might turn the question back on them and ask, "What do you mean?" or "Why do you want to know?" Sometimes I find that answering questions with questions (though annoying in every other facet of life) works well when you're dealing with a student who might be trying to challenge you or get you to commit to a certain course of action.

 

Students don't lie very well when put on the spot, and they often don't bother to lie at all. So if someone answers you with, "I want to know if I can just turn it in like this because I've got a lot to do this weekend" vs. "I'm really nervous about this paper and want to know if my writing is any good," you'll know what kind of student you're dealing with, i.e. the earnest/anxious student or the one who makes no bones about the fact that your class is a big waste of time. You can put the fear of God into slacker student (by telling them that their as-is paper will fail) while trying to honestly help the earnest one.

 

And yeah, I have had students admit some pretty egregious foot-in-mouth things to me, like "I chose this book to write about because it was the only one I read," or "I didn't see the movie because I don't have Netflix, I just read the reviews." And bless them for their honesty, but damn.

[TakeruK]

Most students are, indeed, STEM students, who are used to things like "correct answers" and "mistakes." There is nothing that these students love more than receiving "corrective feedback" and to model their papers off of "perfect" essays.

 

I think even if there is not one single correct answer, it is still useful to have an example of what we are trying to achieve. I remember this frustration in my humanities classes, especially my freshman English classes as a STEM student. I would never know what the instructor/TA wanted from me, just a "B" on everything I write no matter how much/little time I spent on the paper. Sure, we had "perfect examples" in form of the works we were studying, but it's pretty hard for someone who doesn't have much experience writing to even get close to an essay by Orwell, for example.

 

I must admit that as a STEM student trying to adjust to freshman level English classes, I really felt lost. An analogy might be that it was as if we were put into a woodworking shop, taught how to use each piece of equipment, and then were told to build something without being able to see what we were trying to build. For someone like me, who learns from repetition of skills and modeling my work after an example, the humanities courses were tough for me.

 

In the end, I don't really know if it was because the class failed to account for my learning style or I failed to adjust my work habits to meet the demands of the different field. I never got to find out because I did my required 6 courses in the humanities and then didn't take any more courses!

So, whether or not your students are right, I can at least sympathize with the frustration when we are used to being graded on an objective scale and then all of a sudden taking courses where things are much more subjective. I'm not saying any one way is better, but it's definitely hard for a student to transition from one to another.

 

Totally agree

 

And would apply the same logic if a student wants help with a draft.

 

I don't know if I would give the same feedback after the assignment was due and graded vs. before an assignment was handed in. Whenever my students ask me "Is this answer right?" before they hand in their assignment, I try to not tell them yes/no but instead ask them what they think....why do they think it's right etc. Usually as they walk through their own logic, they will find a flaw (if they were wrong) or become more confident in their answer (if they were right). Sometimes a student is going off in the wrong direction but I never actually tell them exactly what to do until after the assignment is graded and they still don't know how to do it (I usually leave a note for them to come see me and we will go over their work). 

 

So, by analogy, as a student in a writing course, I would never expect my TA or instructor to edit my draft with me and actually provide me with what words I should use instead. It might be expected that the instructor might point out areas that need improvement.

 

Students don't lie very well when put on the spot, and they often don't bother to lie at all. So if someone answers you with, "I want to know if I can just turn it in like this because I've got a lot to do this weekend" vs. "I'm really nervous about this paper and want to know if my writing is any good," you'll know what kind of student you're dealing with, i.e. the earnest/anxious student or the one who makes no bones about the fact that your class is a big waste of time. You can put the fear of God into slacker student (by telling them that their as-is paper will fail) while trying to honestly help the earnest one.

I don't worry too much when my students make it clear that "my" course is not their priority. In fact, I understand that they might have other priorities and accept that they might just want to barely scrape by because they have other pressing needs. I usually try to let them know what the minimal amount they need to do in order to pass (through the marking rubric). If a student comes up to me and tells me that they are pressed for time this week for whatever reason (sporting event, going home for the weekend, research project, midterms), I usually try to let them know what areas of the assignment is essential for their understanding of the material (and thus most of the grade) and what might not teach them very much but still take a lot of time (i.e. usually the distinction between an A and A+).

 

Right now, I am TAing a graduate course, so I am applying the above "time management" help a lot more. It is not a core grad course for any of my students, so by definition this would be lower priority than the courses they will have to write comps exams on (and also the research they have to do in their first year!). For the undergrads, grad classes are generally an extra thing anyways. 

 

That is, I try not to take it personally if they de-prioritize my course and I try to not change how much/what kind of help I give based on how much I know they care about the course!

[hashslinger]

Totally agree

 

And would apply the same logic if a student wants help with a draft.

 

Yes, true. But I think that students also need to be aware that seeking help isn't a guarantee to a certain kind of grade, and that the purpose of a draft conference is not to give people a map to getting to an A grade. That's something that's very frustrating about the humanities, and that some students find really irritating--that we can't just tell you what to plug in to get a good grade. We're often looking for really difficult to quantify things, like originality of argument. Those of us who work in the humanities generally know how to recognize and evaluate an argument for its originality, but it's not something we can (or should) map out for our students (and by this I mean tell them exactly what to write or what to argue). Moreover, our purpose in conference isn't to help someone get to a A (though it's nice if they do) but to improve upon some specific things, open up new ways of thinking, etc.

 

Often this frustrates more "grade oriented" students, because they feel that we're not being upfront and honest in conference. I don't get complaints like this anymore (maybe I'm doing something right? probably just inflating the crap out of grades) but I used to get gripes along the line of, "I went to see Hashslinger in conference and still only got a B!" It's like, yeah, our conference helped bring that somewhat-bad paper up to a B--thank God you came in or the grade would have been much worse.

Edited May 4, 2014 by hashslinger

[hashslinger]

I don't worry too much when my students make it clear that "my" course is not their priority. In fact, I understand that they might have other priorities and accept that they might just want to barely scrape by because they have other pressing needs.

 

Oh yeah, I totally understand that. By that example, I guess I meant something more along the lines of a student who clearly does not give a crap and does not want to give the class even the bare minimum to get by (and in my class revising somewhat is in the rubric and part of the bare minimum)--not someone who has to go home for the weekend or has a lab report to do for a class in their major.

 

I'm well aware that most of my students are not majoring in my given subject, and at a large state university I'm aware that even the majors are in this to get a degree, not to develop into PhDs. However, I still think it's acceptable to expect students to approach your class with SOME degree of professionalism. To use a facile example--your boss at work doesn't care if you've just taken the job to pay rent or to bide your time before a better position opens up--you still need to come into work and look like you give a crap about being there. Obviously I don't think that our classes are meant to prepare students for the workforce, so my analogy is imperfect. But I still think that some measure of professionalism is important.  When students come and tell me that they think my class is a waste of time and that they want to know what the absolute bare minimum is they can do to get by--I'm sorry, but I think it's obnoxious. And it's kind of a dumb thing for them to admit.

[Guest |||]

Yes, true. But I think that students also need to be aware that seeking help isn't a guarantee to a certain kind of grade, and that the purpose of a draft conference is not to give people a map to getting to an A grade. That's something that's very frustrating about the humanities, and that some students find really irritating--that we can't just tell you what to plug in to get a good grade. We're often looking for really difficult to quantify things, like originality of argument. Those of us who work in the humanities generally know how to recognize and evaluate an argument for its originality, but it's not something we can (or should) map out for our students (and by this I mean tell them exactly what to write or what to argue). Moreover, our purpose in conference isn't to help someone get to a A (though it's nice if they do) but to improve upon some specific things, open up new ways of thinking, etc.

 

Often this frustrates more "grade oriented" students, because they feel that we're not being upfront and honest in conference. I don't get complaints like this anymore (maybe I'm doing something right? probably just inflating the crap out of grades) but I used to get gripes along the line of, "I went to see Hashslinger in conference and still only got a B!" It's like, yeah, our conference helped bring that somewhat-bad paper up to a B--thank God you came in or the grade would have been much worse.

 

 

I think even just having this conversation would benefit a student.

 

As a side, you also do not actually have to write the students essay for them but if you believe their writing is awkward, pick out a couple sentences from past year assignments (or make a few up) and go over those.

 

Just do something other than say "Awkward" or "Poor transitions", that ammounts to being as useful as saying "Write better"

[hashslinger]

I think even just having this conversation would benefit a student.

 

 

Yes, definitely, Depending on the level of the class I'm teaching, I spell that out,

 

As a side, you also do not actually have to write the students essay for them but if you believe their writing is awkward, pick out a couple sentences from past year assignments (or make a few up) and go over those.

 

Just do something other than say "Awkward" or "Poor transitions", that ammounts to being as useful as saying "Write better"

 

Unfortunately, explaining the technical reason for why something might be "awkward" is sometimes just as opaque to the student--they've got a misplaced modifier, the sentence is a run-on, the sentence is a fragment, the parallel structure is off, they're using a colloquial expression, they're not introducing quoted material in a grammatically sound way, etc. Sometimes these specific reasons for awkwardness are just as confusing for students if they don't have a grammar background. So it's still their responsibility to seek out further feedback if it's not clear, or to go to the writing center where they do workshops on avoiding "awkward" writing.

 

I actually do pass out sample sentences from past classes and have us all revise them in class, but oftentimes students have difficulty applying what they learned there to their own papers.

[TakeruK]

Unfortunately, explaining the technical reason for why something might be "awkward" is sometimes just as opaque to the student--they've got a misplaced modifier, the sentence is a run-on, the sentence is a fragment, the parallel structure is off, they're using a colloquial expression, they're not introducing quoted material in a grammatically sound way, etc.

I wished my instructors did this! I had to learn all these grammar terms in high school and it seems like we never used them afterwards. In addition, even if I didn't understand what a "misplaced modifier" was, I could always look it up and have a concrete understanding of what I need to fix. 

Edited May 4, 2014 by TakeruK

[DerpTastic]

I think in reference to the difference in STEM and humanities, asking a professor or TA exactly what to write on an essay to get a 100 reminds me of going to a professor and asking exactly how to do a problem correctly. Telling them exactly how to do it isn't exactly useful to them, but guiding them along in solving the problem is useful. 

 

"So, I got your comments and feedback on my draft. But, you didn't tell me, what grade would you this draft if it were the final assignment?" seems just like that to me. They know how to improve it, but instead of going and doing it, they really want exactly what they need to get that A, instead of looking for improvement.

[Guest |||]

Yes, definitely, Depending on the level of the class I'm teaching, I spell that out,

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, explaining the technical reason for why something might be "awkward" is sometimes just as opaque to the student--they've got a misplaced modifier, the sentence is a run-on, the sentence is a fragment, the parallel structure is off, they're using a colloquial expression, they're not introducing quoted material in a grammatically sound way, etc. Sometimes these specific reasons for awkwardness are just as confusing for students if they don't have a grammar background. So it's still their responsibility to seek out further feedback if it's not clear, or to go to the writing center where they do workshops on avoiding "awkward" writing.

 

I actually do pass out sample sentences from past classes and have us all revise them in class, but oftentimes students have difficulty applying what they learned there to their own papers.

 

 

Agreed, sometimes when you explain to a student why a sentence is awkward they might not understand.  That said you should explain if a student asks you to clarify what it is that is actually awkward. 

[juilletmercredi]

Well, fair question.  Usually I do answer the question "What grade would you give this draft?" when asked because I think that's helpful for the student to know where they stand.  I mean, the student has a point - one of the purposes of getting feedback on a draft is to get a handle on the professor's evaluation and grading philosophy.

But if I really didn't want to, I would say something like "I don't assign grades to drafts; the purpose of the exercise is for you to do revisions so that you can improve your work and get a good grade."  To that response, I would say "Again, that's not really the purpose of the draft, so no, I can't tell you what grade I would assign to this draft."

To the second part of the question, I say "No."  Then I explain to the student that that's their job.

 

Unfortunately, explaining the technical reason for why something might be "awkward" is sometimes just as opaque to the student--they've got a misplaced modifier, the sentence is a run-on, the sentence is a fragment, the parallel structure is off, they're using a colloquial expression, they're not introducing quoted material in a grammatically sound way, etc. Sometimes these specific reasons for awkwardness are just as confusing for students if they don't have a grammar background. So it's still their responsibility to seek out further feedback if it's not clear, or to go to the writing center where they do workshops on avoiding "awkward" writing.

 

I disagree.  I give this kind of feedback on my papers all the time, and when I teach writing I teach students who are woeful and students who are good writers. Even the woeful writers understand what I mean by a run-on sentence or a colloquial expression.  And when they don't, they usually Google it.  Or sometimes, they ask me in class and I explain it to them.  I've found that using this kind of feedback is much more helpful to them.  However, I've rarely found that a basic misunderstanding of grammar rules is their problem.  They know what these things are - they just don't know how to apply that knowledge to writing a paper, or how to avoid violating them in a paper.

 

However, sometimes I do simply have to write "this is awkward."  Often that's because their wording is really awkward and I don't have a good way to rewrite it so it's not (or, simply because I don't have the time in that moment to think of one).  Usually these students figure it out on their own...and if they don't, they come ask me.  However, I write more than "awkward," I write something like "The wording in this sentence is awkward" or "The structure of this sentence is awkward; it's too wordy and the subject is unclear" or the tried and true "I don't understand what you're trying to say here."

 

Yes, true. But I think that students also need to be aware that seeking help isn't a guarantee to a certain kind of grade, and that the purpose of a draft conference is not to give people a map to getting to an A grade...Those of us who work in the humanities generally know how to recognize and evaluate an argument for its originality, but it's not something we can (or should) map out for our students (and by this I mean tell them exactly what to write or what to argue). Moreover, our purpose in conference isn't to help someone get to a A (though it's nice if they do) but to improve upon some specific things, open up new ways of thinking, etc.

 

I agree that just having this conversation seems to benefit my students, because they honestly don't get it sometimes.  Many of them went to high schools where they were "taught to the test" - they were taught that if they followed a certain formula, they would get an A.  They don't understand that there is no real formula for writing that results in clear communication 100% of the time, and they don't understand the idea of developing their own voice.  This is actually brand new information to them.  When I talk to them about it, some of them get excited about breaking the bonds of the stupid five-paragraph essay.

[danieleWrites]

In composition courses? It's not about teaching the student how to do something the right way. It's about teaching the student how to consider their own draft and fix it. By the time they get to college, any grammar problems they have can't be fixed in a composition course, or other writing course. They have to learn to essayist literacy the same way they learned to speak. It takes years of daily practice, not a few essays. A composition course is about teaching process, rhetoric, textual analysis, self-analysis, genre, and working with secondary sources. It's about teaching a student to figure out the grammar on their own.

NEVER EVER EVER assess a grade on a rough draft. The student isn't asking for helpful feedback; the student is asking how much effort they need to put into the essay to make the teacher happy. The student is asking for "correct answer." In writing, there is not such thing as the correct answer; the correct answer is the one that best fits the rhetorical situation (writer's purpose, reader's expectations, genre, medium). In comp, genre isn't like sci-fi or rom-com. It's essay, lab report, memo, research paper, and so on. Juliet, I think, has it right. Instead of giving the grade, ask them what grade they think they should have and why. They will fight because they don't want to figure it out themselves. It does them a horrific disservice to hand them these answers because they don't learn from it. They just make a paper that makes the comp teacher happy, then go on to other courses and write junk. Only 35% of businesses survey in 2006 thought college graduates were prepared to write in the workplace.

It is waaaaay too much to ask for a composition teacher to explain how every part of an essay should be put together. The comp teacher's job is not to teach the student how to turn the professor into a crutch, but to teach the student how to use logic and rhetorical principles to communicate, and to figure out the writing process that works best for the student. It is also way too much to ask for the comp teacher to give individual grammar lessons. First, because correct grammar isn't always the right answer (not even most of the time), and second, because the student's future feedback will be in the "I don't get it" or "this doesn't make sense" variety, not in the clear specifics that comp teachers will use. Instead, students should be referred to the writing center (if there is one) because they won't have a comp teacher for every essay they write. It's about teaching the man to fish, not giving him the fish.

In case your wondering, commenting on a rough draft of approximately 4 pages takes about 20 to 30 minutes. Of those comments, students will ignore 2/3. Students will ignore the textbook assigned (which explains in detail that a 14 year old can understand---I tested it) because it's easier to ask the teacher what they teacher wants to see than to figure it out themselves.

I give my students with snarly sentences this essay: http://wac.colostate.edu/jbw/v1n1/krishna.pdf

As far as fixing grammar, Joseph Williams "The Phenomenology of Error" explains it far better than I can.

Here's the thing about writing. It's all rhetorical. The "best" essay isn't the correct essay, but the essay that feels correct. The "best" grammar isn't the correct grammar, but the grammar that feels correct. We have words like irregardless in our vocabulary. Language is messy and gets messier.

Writing courses are not about teaching the "correct" way to write. They're about teaching students to think about the best way to present their ideas in writing and, since the best way to do that in the university is through essayist literacy, it's about assigning essayist literacy homework. There's the idea that this is "correct," but it's not.

I'm going to go rant at a tree now.

[Shamrock_Frog]

Ugh, how do you respond to this question?

 

And, how do you respond to the even more rage-inducing, follow-up question that usually comes right after: "What do you want me to do SPECIFICALLY? I want to fix each of my specific mistakes, so that I can get an A."

 

The following is a conversation that's happened multiple times this year:

 

STUDENT: So, I got your comments and feedback on my draft. But, you didn't tell me, what grade would you this draft if it were the final assignment?

 

ME: Well, that wouldn't be a fair thought experiment for either one of us, because it ISN'T the final draft. The key for the moment is to think about the potential ways you could improve it during the revision process.

 

STUDENT: Yes, I understand that. But, I just want to get a grasp on your evaluation and grading philosophy. Can you tell me what grade you personally would consider this draft? Also, while I understood the feedback you gave and the questions you asked, can you give me some ACTUAL, specific, step-by-step instructions on what mistakes I made, and how I can fix them, in order to get an A?

 

ME: ........[facepalm] WAIT, SO YOU WANT ME TO REVISE YOUR PAPER FOR YOU, IS THAT RIGHT?

Uh, it's not high school. Why is he expecting a step by step guide? As long as the instructions from the professor were clear, there's really nothing more to say. Is there a writing center at your campus? Can you refer this student there?