Has anyone thought about living overseas?

[DeafAudi]

More and more lately I've been thinking that I want to move to Europe, most likely one of the Nordic countries. Of course, this would require learning a second language, which would be challenging because I have never learned any language other than English. I'm planning on maybe working a few years after graduation in Canada and becoming fluent in a second language. Canada is a great country but I'm bored and want to see the world. I've never lived more than a hour away from my parents. Is anyone else in the same boat? Has anyone actually made the move overseas?

Edited May 12, 2014 by DeafAudi

[victorydance]

I lived in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil and Santa Marta, Colombia. I currently live in Mexico City. In a nutshell, when I am not attending school, I am living somewhere in Latin America.

 

You will not become fluent in a second language by living in Canada, not even close. Need to just move to another country and immerse yourself and study the language there. Obviously I encourage you to learn basics of a language before arriving at a country, but you won't reach a high level until you both take classes and become immersed.

 

I encourage you to live abroad. It can be quite a fulfilling experience for a number of reasons. However, I would also say that you need to be smart about it. 

 

What draws you to the Nordic countries? I would choose a country that you are really interested in because that is what is going to keep you there. Whether it's just one aspect of their culture or a multitude of things, or a city you are interested in, their history, ect. This is important because it's going to help you grow some kind of roots outside of family and friends which is important for feeling grounded in a foreign country. Also, it is always wise to find a native significant other as soon as possible (for growing roots, understanding the culture, learning the language, ect.)

 

Secondly, don't be afraid to get out of your comfort zone; that means that developing countries should be options. For one, Nordic countries are ridiculously expensive. Getting jobs as an expat is often difficult. I find expats need to be a lot more independently wealthy to survive. Developing countries on the other hand are cheap, you may not find a good source of income and still be able to get by in these types of countries. For example, the cost of living is a lot cheaper in Bucharest, Romania than it is in Oslo, Norway. You should also work to hedge some skills that may be lucrative in other countries, think of things that are in rare supply (this is also another advantage of being in a developing country).

 

Can you get EU status? That would make your life a lot easier.

Edited May 12, 2014 by HopefulComparativist

[DeafAudi]

Thank you for your well thought out response! 

 

I agree that I would need to immerse myself in a different culture to learn the language, so perhaps saying that I would become fluent in Canada was too optimistic. I would definitely study as much as I could before moving to a foreign country. It would also be more difficult with my hearing loss, but I've never let that stop me before .

 

I'm interested in the Nordic countries because it would be fairly easy to transition there with my masters degree in Audiology and I don't think it's too hard to get a job in that field. Of course, it would be much more difficult as an expat (as you said). I've also always been attracted to the idea of living in Europe. I've heard that it is similar to living in Canada in some ways, and my grandparents were born in Austria, Germany, Ireland (another option) and Sweden so I wonder if getting status would be easier. I've also heard that the Nordic languages are easier to learn from English. I still have a lot of real research to do.

 

I like your suggestion of maybe considering developing countries. They may not be as "sexy" as Europe, but if I could find a job in my field and still live comfortably while experiencing another culture, I'm sure it would be an amazing experience.

 

Did you find it challenging moving from place to place? What did you do with any possessions you accumulated? Did you manage to set down roots in any of them, or are you still looking for that perfect place? 

 

I haven't actually looked into getting EU status. As I said before, my research is very preliminary and this dream of mine is really just taking roots!

[maelia8]

I'm from the USA and have lived in Germany for 3.5 years (combined total of three time periods), and the experience has been incredibly enriching and informative. I've had the opportunity to travel to a dozen European countries, improve my German to near-perfect fluency, and work on learning/improving my Spanish, French, and Swedish. I didn't find the transition to Europe to be a particularly difficult one culturally or socially, and I feel as at home here as I do in California. That being said, there are definitely challenges.

 

For one thing, unless you work in a scientific/technical field in an industry that is hiring and are well-qualified, you are going to have a hard time finding a job. EU laws prevent member states from hiring non-EU citizens over qualified EU citizens, so unless there's something you can do that an EU citizen can't (something you are superbly qualified for), you will be turned down for the job. I work as an ESL teacher because I'm a native English speaker, one of the few areas in which I am a foreigner have an advantage over a native German. 

 

Europe is incredibly expensive, but on the bright side, if you're in a country with a robust economy like Germany or one of the Nordic countries, your salary will also be proportionately generous. If you plan on staying in Europe in the long run, you may need to get special qualification for a job there above and beyond the degree that you hold in North America, which is why most of the foreigners I know here have or are working on getting an advanced German degree (which makes them a much better job candidate here). In order to stay in Europe for more than 3 months, you will have to get a job here and get a work visa, which you can only receive once you have a valid job contract with a firm here. There's a lot of red tape, but it's definitely doable if you're persistent. 

 

Since I've moved back and forth between Europe and the USA six times in the last eight years, I've gotten quite good at living in a minimalist style (if it doesn't fit in two suitcases, it gets sold or given away). The longer you live like this, the less attached you become to possessions and the easier it gets to let them go when you move. 

 

Perhaps the best way to find out whether living overseas is for you is to go on some sort of short-term exchange, internship, or volunteer opportunity for two or three months in the country of your choice. This would give you the chance to get a feel for the environment, do a crash course in the language, and start figuring out how to go about finding a job and getting a long-term visa, if that is what you still desire after spending a few months there. Every expat goes through cycles of feeling assimilated and feeling somewhat frustrated and alienated, so it's important to give yourself time to adjust and figure out your place in a new country. 

[GreenePony]

DH really wanted/wants to green card hop around the EU as a programmer while we're still young but two problems have come up (he's qualified enough that getting a job wouldn't be as much of a problem):

1. This plan was devised before he realized how hard it is for me to find a job

2. How sick I got at field school and our honeymoon made him realize just how poorly I travel and how much I need a doctor I can clearly communicate with - the only modern languages I know are Spanish and Norwegian and neither well enough to communicate my health concerns

As far as Norway is concerned (caveat, we've been putting off visiting Norway for close to 20 years) - Norwegian is not an easy language to learn, you need to be immersed or take a class. Rosetta and that sort of programs don't cover Norwegian. People have mentioned how expensive is it is, when my cousins visit (they live around Bergen and Oslo) they LOVE shopping because of how cheap everything is in comparison. Now I did have a professor who did a Fulbright to teach in Oslo and loved it, a fellowship/grant seems to be the way to go to at least try it.

[victorydance]

Thank you for your well thought out response! 

 

I agree that I would need to immerse myself in a different culture to learn the language, so perhaps saying that I would become fluent in Canada was too optimistic. I would definitely study as much as I could before moving to a foreign country. It would also be more difficult with my hearing loss, but I've never let that stop me before .

 

I'm interested in the Nordic countries because it would be fairly easy to transition there with my masters degree in Audiology and I don't think it's too hard to get a job in that field. Of course, it would be much more difficult as an expat (as you said). I've also always been attracted to the idea of living in Europe. I've heard that it is similar to living in Canada in some ways, and my grandparents were born in Austria, Germany, Ireland (another option) and Sweden so I wonder if getting status would be easier. I've also heard that the Nordic languages are easier to learn from English. I still have a lot of real research to do.

 

I like your suggestion of maybe considering developing countries. They may not be as "sexy" as Europe, but if I could find a job in my field and still live comfortably while experiencing another culture, I'm sure it would be an amazing experience.

 

Did you find it challenging moving from place to place? What did you do with any possessions you accumulated? Did you manage to set down roots in any of them, or are you still looking for that perfect place? 

 

I haven't actually looked into getting EU status. As I said before, my research is very preliminary and this dream of mine is really just taking roots!

 

What I meant by the EU status thing was...do you have any relatives with European descent? Were your grandparents and/or parents born in Europe? Some European countries have pretty relaxed citizenship standards. I was able to get Italian citizenship just because my grandparents on my father's side were born in Italy. Definitely something to consider if you have European descent because an EU passport makes things a million times easier.

 

I don't find it challenging. But then again, I am quite nomadic. Judging from your other post you haven't spent much time out of your comfort zone, so that may be a challenge for you. But hardly one that cannot be overcome. I agree with the other poster, a more short-term 'getting your feet wet' thing might be a good idea. The hardest things are probably just things that you might take for granted in your native country being actually difficult with language barriers such as finding an apartment, paying rent, getting electricity or internet set up, things like this but that's part of the experience.

 

Like the other poster, I am a minimalist. Actually, probably even more of one; everything I own fits into a backpack. These things are not important in my life. If you would like to keep some of your things, you may consider finding storage somewhere (preferably somewhere free of course).

 

There is no 'perfect place' for me personally. I love Latin America but my living experiences here have been more on the temporary side of things. Spending summers, gap years, learning languages ect. But it's been part of a grander plan as well because I want to do research and fieldwork in my field in this area so having experience with these countries definitely will make that process much easier. I loved Rio, I love Mexico City, but every place has good things and drawbacks. I have a girlfriend that I live with here in Mexico, so yes I do have some roots here. In fact, I would go as far to say that I always call my new place 'home' rather than Canada. But then again, I don't really have a great connection with Canada. 

 

I don't plan on staying here in Mexico City long-term (well unless you consider the next year or so long-term). But who knows what happens down the road, but I am applying to mostly American Ph.D. programs, so that is probably where I will end up next. But I am sure I'll be back somewhere down the line, at the very least for fieldwork. 

[DeafAudi]

 

Perhaps the best way to find out whether living overseas is for you is to go on some sort of short-term exchange, internship, or volunteer opportunity for two or three months in the country of your choice. This would give you the chance to get a feel for the environment, do a crash course in the language, and start figuring out how to go about finding a job and getting a long-term visa, if that is what you still desire after spending a few months there. Every expat goes through cycles of feeling assimilated and feeling somewhat frustrated and alienated, so it's important to give yourself time to adjust and figure out your place in a new country. 

 

Wow, you have had quite the experience! I'm very jealous .

 

This is a great idea! I don't know how to go around finding these opportunities but that will be something I'll have to look into. Possibly my program advisors will know something?

[DeafAudi]

What I meant by the EU status thing was...do you have any relatives with European descent? Were your grandparents and/or parents born in Europe? Some European countries have pretty relaxed citizenship standards. I was able to get Italian citizenship just because my grandparents on my father's side were born in Italy. Definitely something to consider if you have European descent because an EU passport makes things a million times easier.

 

I don't find it challenging. But then again, I am quite nomadic. Judging from your other post you haven't spent much time out of your comfort zone, so that may be a challenge for you. But hardly one that cannot be overcome. I agree with the other poster, a more short-term 'getting your feet wet' thing might be a good idea. The hardest things are probably just things that you might take for granted in your native country being actually difficult with language barriers such as finding an apartment, paying rent, getting electricity or internet set up, things like this but that's part of the experience.

 

Like the other poster, I am a minimalist. Actually, probably even more of one; everything I own fits into a backpack. These things are not important in my life. If you would like to keep some of your things, you may consider finding storage somewhere (preferably somewhere free of course).

 

There is no 'perfect place' for me personally. I love Latin America but my living experiences here have been more on the temporary side of things. Spending summers, gap years, learning languages ect. But it's been part of a grander plan as well because I want to do research and fieldwork in my field in this area so having experience with these countries definitely will make that process much easier. I loved Rio, I love Mexico City, but every place has good things and drawbacks. I have a girlfriend that I live with here in Mexico, so yes I do have some roots here. In fact, I would go as far to say that I always call my new place 'home' rather than Canada. But then again, I don't really have a great connection with Canada. 

 

I don't plan on staying here in Mexico City long-term (well unless you consider the next year or so long-term). But who knows what happens down the road, but I am applying to mostly American Ph.D. programs, so that is probably where I will end up next. But I am sure I'll be back somewhere down the line, at the very least for fieldwork. 

 

That is very encouraging re: the possibility of qualifying for a passport because my grandparents were born there. I'll definitely look into that as well. How did you go about getting Italian citizenship?

 

It's true that I haven't really experienced much outside of my own country and culture. Part of this was because I'm young (25) and have been in school since I graduated high school so I never really had the money. I also got into a relationship young and now that's over, I've realized that I held myself back and didn't take risks, such as travelling or living abroad like I've always wanted to. 

 

I've always wanted to go to Mexico City! I'm sure it's a drasically different experience than tourisy Cancun and PV . 

[DeafAudi]

 

As far as Norway is concerned (caveat, we've been putting off visiting Norway for close to 20 years) - Norwegian is not an easy language to learn, you need to be immersed or take a class. Rosetta and that sort of programs don't cover Norwegian. People have mentioned how expensive is it is, when my cousins visit (they live around Bergen and Oslo) they LOVE shopping because of how cheap everything is in comparison. Now I did have a professor who did a Fulbright to teach in Oslo and loved it, a fellowship/grant seems to be the way to go to at least try it.

 

Thank you for the advice! I was actually leaning more towards Denmark, Sweden, or Finland out of the Nordic countries. Do you know anything about those languages? I heard that Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian are quite similar but Finnish is different. 

Edited May 13, 2014 by DeafAudi

[maelia8]

Thank you for the advice! I was actually leaning more towards Denmark, Sweden, or Finland out of the Nordic countries. Do you know anything about those languages? I heard that Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian are quite similar but Finnish is different. 

 

As someone who already spoke German when they started learning Swedish, and having picked up several Danish and Norwegian books to compare, I can tell you that Swedish is (in my opinion) slightly more similar to English than German, but if you already speak German and English, Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian are much easier to learn, as most words are either similar to the English or to the German (with a few exceptions). Swedish and Norwegian are similar enough to be readable by speakers of both languages, although the spoken accent is different enough that they are usually not mutually intelligible. Honestly though, people in Germany and to an even greater extent Norway, Sweden, and Denmark speak good to flawless English, so you would be fine there upon arrival and until you manage to enroll in an immersion language course. Good Swedish/Danish/Norwegian language courses in the USA are few and far between (unless your university specializes in Scandinavian studies), so you'd probably do most of the language learning once you got there.

[nugget]

DeafAudi,

 

If you're looking for summer work/volunteer experience to find out if you want to live and study in europe, you may find something of interest on these websites: 

 

http://www.eslcafe.com/joblist/             

 

http://www.swap.ca/out_eng/destinations.aspx

 

There's also a good magazine called Transitions Abroad that has lots of great ideas and suggestions. I haven't read it in a good number of years so I'm not sure if it's still in publication, but I just found out they have a website. Hopefully it's just as helpful as the magazine used to be. 

 

http://www.transitionsabroad.com/

Edited May 13, 2014 by jenste

[DeafAudi]

Thank you for the advice, jenste and maelia8!

 

Unfortunately, I only know English and very limited French (I know, I know, boring!) but I would really like to pick up a second or even third language. Maybe I will start with Swedish as it sounds like it's closer to English and go from there? 

 

I will definitely check out those websites, jenste. I know that I need to gain language proficiency before I even start applying for jobs so perhaps it would be worth going on a kind of exchange program and enrolling in an immersion course when I'm there. 

[juilletmercredi]

When I was in college, my dream was to spend several years just kind of living a nomadic life in several different countries.  I wanted to spend a couple of months somewhere, learning the culture and a little bit about the language, and then move somewhere else.  There was actually a fellowship that allowed you to do that at the time (Watson).  I also thought about joining the foreign service.  At the very least, I wanted to teach abroad for a couple of years in another country, preferably one in East Asia.  I had never lived more than 20 minutes away from home, with the exception of a semester abroad in Europe, but I knew I was quite capable of doing it.  My semester abroad was freaking incredible and I was totally ready to ditch the U.S., lol.

I decided to go to graduate school instead.  I'm still trying to decide if this is a decision I regret.  On the one hand, I'm almost finished, and I love my field and my research.  On the other hand, I do really regret not spending more time abroad, since traveling internationally was one of my dreams (and not just traveling internationally, but living somewhere else for extended periods of time).

If you're bored with Canada, why do you want to go somewhere that you think is similar to living in Canada?  I actually don't think it would be fairly easy for you to transition there as an audiologist.  If you're not bilingual in any Scandinavian languages, my guess is you'll have a hard time practicing in your field.  Although I do think most Scandinavian adults learn to speak English, you'd probably have to practice in the native language of the country.

I think the way that many Americans and Canadians work abroad (without going through a U.S.- or Canadian-based company with international offices) is teaching English abroad.  Check out programs like JET, EPIK and CIEE for English teaching-abroad jobs.  In many countries (including most Western European and South American ones) you aren't competitive if you aren't proficient in the home country's language, but in others (most Asian countries, many African nations, many Eastern European countries) no proficiency is expected.

[victorydance]

That is very encouraging re: the possibility of qualifying for a passport because my grandparents were born there. I'll definitely look into that as well. How did you go about getting Italian citizenship?

 

Figured out the laws from family/internet. Then went to the consulate in my city and received all the documentation I needed, filled it out and applied. It's not too complicated, but depending on the country there are some tedious requirements and you need to know family history, and have certificates of birth and such. It can be tedious, but definitely worth it. 

 

About the whole "sexy Europe" thing that I forgot to touch on last post, there are lots of developing countries in Eastern Europe that I would love to explore but always opt for more time in Latin America. Places like Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria, and the Baltic countries all have interesting histories and are far cheaper to live than Northern or Western European countries. The caveat being that you definitely have to become proficient in the native languages to survive. 

[DeafAudi]

When I was in college, my dream was to spend several years just kind of living a nomadic life in several different countries.  I wanted to spend a couple of months somewhere, learning the culture and a little bit about the language, and then move somewhere else.  There was actually a fellowship that allowed you to do that at the time (Watson).  I also thought about joining the foreign service.  At the very least, I wanted to teach abroad for a couple of years in another country, preferably one in East Asia.  I had never lived more than 20 minutes away from home, with the exception of a semester abroad in Europe, but I knew I was quite capable of doing it.  My semester abroad was freaking incredible and I was totally ready to ditch the U.S., lol.

I decided to go to graduate school instead.  I'm still trying to decide if this is a decision I regret.  On the one hand, I'm almost finished, and I love my field and my research.  On the other hand, I do really regret not spending more time abroad, since traveling internationally was one of my dreams (and not just traveling internationally, but living somewhere else for extended periods of time).

If you're bored with Canada, why do you want to go somewhere that you think is similar to living in Canada?  I actually don't think it would be fairly easy for you to transition there as an audiologist.  If you're not bilingual in any Scandinavian languages, my guess is you'll have a hard time practicing in your field.  Although I do think most Scandinavian adults learn to speak English, you'd probably have to practice in the native language of the country.

I think the way that many Americans and Canadians work abroad (without going through a U.S.- or Canadian-based company with international offices) is teaching English abroad.  Check out programs like JET, EPIK and CIEE for English teaching-abroad jobs.  In many countries (including most Western European and South American ones) you aren't competitive if you aren't proficient in the home country's language, but in others (most Asian countries, many African nations, many Eastern European countries) no proficiency is expected.

 

Yes. of course I would become bilingual in the language of whichever country I move to, which is why I'm seeking opportunities to do so in Canada or through a work/volunteer experience. I was more referring to the fact that my M.Sc. would theoretically allow me to practice worldwide in my field (with the exception of the U.S., where they require an Au.D.). I realize that I would face many challenges as an expat and appreciate any advice anyone can provide.

 

I will be going to grad school in Canada although I would have preferred to study abroad because my program is not highly funded. Because I was not able to have this opportunity, I hope one day to work abroad. The idea of practicing in a foreign country and learning the local culture and language is what appeals to me. I enjoy being in Canada, but I want to experience something more, too. This is why I said that I wouldn't mind living somewhere culturally similar to Canada, because I'm not unhappy here. 

 

HopefulComparativist, I will definitely look into that. If you get citizenship in one EU country, does it become easier to get citizenship in others? Also, the Baltic countries are intriguing! I would love to visit one day.

Edited May 13, 2014 by DeafAudi

[victorydance]

If the country you are granted citizenship is a member of the EU, then it's like having a passport in any of those countries. Obviously there are restrictions, but any EU member citizen can freely work, gain permanent residence, ect. in any EU country. This is a law called the "the right of free movement" that is set in the EU:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2004/38/EC_on_the_right_to_move_and_reside_freely

[DeafAudi]

If the country you are granted citizenship is a member of the EU, then it's like having a passport in any of those countries. Obviously there are restrictions, but any EU member citizen can freely work, gain permanent residence, ect. in any EU country. This is a law called the "the right of free movement" that is set in the EU:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2004/38/EC_on_the_right_to_move_and_reside_freely

 

Ah, thanks!

[maelia8]

If you decide to go the ESL teaching route, I know a lot about Fulbright and have friends in JET and EPIK, so I'd be happy to answer any questions that you have or forward them to my friends.

 

 

 

When I was in college, my dream was to spend several years just kind of living a nomadic life in several different countries.  I wanted to spend a couple of months somewhere, learning the culture and a little bit about the language, and then move somewhere else.  There was actually a fellowship that allowed you to do that at the time (Watson).  I also thought about joining the foreign service.  At the very least, I wanted to teach abroad for a couple of years in another country, preferably one in East Asia.  I had never lived more than 20 minutes away from home, with the exception of a semester abroad in Europe, but I knew I was quite capable of doing it.  My semester abroad was freaking incredible and I was totally ready to ditch the U.S., lol.

I decided to go to graduate school instead.  I'm still trying to decide if this is a decision I regret.  On the one hand, I'm almost finished, and I love my field and my research.  On the other hand, I do really regret not spending more time abroad, since traveling internationally was one of my dreams (and not just traveling internationally, but living somewhere else for extended periods of time).

 

@juilletmercredi Have you ever thought about taking some time off after you finish your final degree to travel internationally or live overseas? I took two years off between finishing my undergrad and going to grad school to live in Germany and teach ESL, and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. Even though it means that I'm starting grad school later and thus also my eventual career later, and that I spent two years doing something that has no relation to my probably future career, living here has given me some great perspective and provided with a level of maturity and life experience that I believe helped to make me a better grad school candidate and better all-around professional worker. 

 

Even if you need to take some time to get established in your career, please don't consider your dream of going abroad for an extended time to be over - if you still want it to happen, I'm sure that you'll find a way at some point in the future, even if that means joining the Peace Corps when your kids go off to college

[DeafAudi]

If you decide to go the ESL teaching route, I know a lot about Fulbright and have friends in JET and EPIK, so I'd be happy to answer any questions that you have or forward them to my friends.

 

 

Thank you!

 

A part of me is wondering if it's a cop out to NOT practice audiology, the field I'm studying in grad school, for a few years after graduation? I have to wonder if it will hurt me in the long run, too. I understand that my school helps second year students find jobs upon graduation and I don't want to miss out on that assistance. I'm sure I will figure it out!