Age Issues

[Dr. Old Bill]

Greetings all,

 

New member, long-time lurker here.

 

So I'm a little unique in that I am a bit older, being in my mid-30s. That's not overly unusual for Ph.D. applicants in general, but my concern is that I'm just now entering my Senior year as an undergraduate. In other words, I'm just now completing my B.A., whereas most other applicants in my age range completed their B.A.s in their early 20s, and then worked, as opposed to working right out of high school and getting a couple of vocational degrees in their 20s as I have done.

 

I've received some mixed advice from various professors and others about whether or not my age (and related circumstances) will be a factor against me. My undergraduate advisor (who, incidentally, just retired) has urged me against pursuing a Ph.D. in English -- not because of my academic ability or personality, but partially because of the disappearing job market for tenure-track professors (which is admittedly legitimate), and partially because being twelve or so years older than many of my peer applicants will be a detriment in the admissions process. Other professors have told me that it either won't be an issue, or could even be a benefit.

 

So what do some of you think about this? I'm also wondering whether or not I should try to avoid mentioning my age in my Statement of Purpose (not conceal it...just not draw attention to it), or if I should be up front and spin it as a strength.

 

Any feedback would be appreciated!

 

Shaun

 

[ComeBackZinc]

There are several people in my program who are in their 40s, and many in my larger department. Nobody notices or cares. It's not remotely an issue. I'm in my early 30s myself, while in my cohort we have people who have gone straight kindergarten through PhD and people in their 40s and in between. It makes no difference, socially or educationally. Also, while implicit bias is real and the law can't perfectly prevent discrimination, the Age Discrimination in Employment Act makes it a federal crime to discriminate against you in a job search because of your age. 

 

Of course, the labor market is in and of itself an extraordinarily powerful argument against getting your PhD in English. But age, specifically-- particularly for someone who is not at all out of keeping with many grad students-- that is no reason not to go.

[toasterazzi]

I don't know that you should necessarily mention your age in the SOP unless you have a specific reason for doing so. But I will say that in my MA program, there were a couple people in their 30s, a couple people in their 40s, and one lady who was a bit older. Also, grad students in my program were invited to meet and interview some of the prospective new hires for this fall and all of them were in their mid to late 30s or older. I don't doubt that there are probably biases out there, but from my personal observations, it also seems like there's still opportunities available.

[Dr. Old Bill]

Thanks to both of you for your prompt replies.

 

I'm not so concerned about my age when I get out of a Ph.D. program, as I'll be right around 40 - 42, giving me a solid 25 potential years at a given school when it comes to the job market (understanding the other unrelated obstacles, of course). My concern -- based only on professor comments -- is regarding the "getting in to grad school" end of things. I suppose there's nothing I can do to play down the fact that I'm a 34-year old undergraduate, but I suppose what Toasterazzi says is probably the best advice -- just don't mention my age directly in my SOP. There's no way around talking about experiences that will point to my age, but so long as I don't make it an issue, it probably (hopefully) won't be.

 

Thanks again!

[ComeBackZinc]

I can't say what will be the case with the particular programs that you apply to. But I can tell you that I easily know two dozen people, from various English programs across the country, who have started PhD programs at your age or older. And I think you should look at it this way: would you really want to go to a program that would discriminate against you in that way?

[Dr. Old Bill]

That's very true, ComeBackZinc. I suppose it's probably a moot point after all.

[nonameplease]

I'm a good 20 years older than you- finishing a MA abroad. Perhaps your professor was just inarticulate? There are many, many reasons not to persue your stated goal mainly penury and adjuncts- but age, really not a factor.

 

Age can be the your "edge" if you deploy it soundly.

[Dr. Old Bill]

I'm a good 20 years older than you- finishing a MA abroad. Perhaps your professor was just inarticulate? There are many, many reasons not to persue your stated goal mainly penury and adjuncts- but age, really not a factor.

 

Age can be the your "edge" if you deploy it soundly.

 

 

Well, here is what he had to say specifically. Incidentally, this is part of a response from him to me, in which he thanked me for a retirement gift I gave him:

 

"I have misgivings about any student I’ve taught going on to graduate school in English.  But there is a special factor in your case that only adds to one’s concern, and that is your age.  It can hardly work in your favor, I think, inasmuch as any good program will rightly calculate that it would be training in you someone who would be an academic for a considerably shorter period than is customary.  Age is very often something quietly taken into consideration in evaluating an application.  You’ll get in some place, of course, but perhaps not the place you otherwise would have had you graduated at the age of 22."

 

Again, he has no concerns about me academically, or in any other way (he'll be writing one of my LORs), but it's just my age that concerns him. I don't know how valid that is, and I'm hoping -- based in part on what I'm reading in this very thread -- that he's simply mistaken about the tacit consideration of my age...

[bhr]

Well, I'm about as close of a match as you can get. I dropped out of college twice (once in my teens, once in my early twenties), and just returned last year to finish my final three semesters of undergrad, graduating last week at the ripe old age of 36. I experienced no pushback except for my own misgivings when applying to programs, and got in to 4/5 of my schools (including Zinc's). I think it's BS to think that you will be teaching for "a considerably shorter period" if you finish at 40ish. That still gives you 25 years until average retirement age, and longer if you are one of the myriad of professors who work into your 70s. I would think that, once hitting the job market, that a 40ish recent PhD will be looked on favorably in comparison to the 27 year old. You may appear to be a more stable hire, and more likely to stay in one place your entire career.

 

Use your age. Talk about your journey, and how what you've done brought you to where you are. If you have vocational degrees, consider programs in tech comm, where your life experience makes you uniquely qualified.

 

(I will say that I opted to go MA first, and not apply straight for the PhD except for one program)

[WriteAndKnit]

Age is only a limitation if you let it limit you. You've got work experience and life experience that younger graduate and PhD students just don't have. And you can play up the idea that you know what you want; you have a specific path. You've got this.

[Dr. Old Bill]

Thanks, all. This has certainly set my mind at ease!

[Tybalt]

It's become a sad refrain for just about every question that gets posted here, but the reality is that it likely depends on each individual program.  Your adviser isn't wrong.  There are some schools that will definitely take that view when they see your date of birth.  There are also other schools, as several others in this conversation have suggested, where a little bit of chronological seasoning will be highly valued.

 

The tricky part, is figuring out which schools fall into each category.  They really CAN'T answer that kind of question directly, as it opens them up to potential litigation.  If it were me, I would contact the DGS at a few schools that interest you.  Be up front.  Mention your adviser's comment, and ask how that school tends to look on older applicants.  As I said, I doubt they will answer directly, but there's a big difference between a response of "We evaluate applications based on criteria X, Y, and Z," and a response of "We've found that a few older students enhances the scholarly conversation, and have made a concerted effort to include them in recent cohorts."

 

Best of luck, from another "old" PhD applicant.

[Dr. Old Bill]

Thanks for that, Tybalt. One other tack I'll take was suggested on a thread I found here about a year ago, and that is, simply enough, to look at the pictures of the current grad students at various programs I'd like to apply to. Not all schools have pictures for their grad students, of course, and age is obviously something that can't always be determined from a photo (most people think I'm in my mid-twenties based on my looks), but the presence of one or two "older" individuals should indicate a lack of bias on a selection committee (though the absence of any older folks doesn't necessarily mean that any bias exists either).

 

All in all, however, I've stopped fretting about it. All I can really do is focus on making my application as strong as possible, and if a few schools tacitly overlook it because of my age alone, well...like ComeBackZinc mentioned above, would I really want to go to such a place?

[lyonessrampant]

Another potential indicator is whether current students have an MA.  Many of the top 10 programs tend to prefer young applicants without an MA, but that isn't true across the board, of course.

[bhr]

Another potential indicator is whether current students have an MA.  Many of the top 10 programs tend to prefer young applicants without an MA, but that isn't true across the board, of course.

 

That may be the case in Lit/English, but definitely not in Rhet/Comp. I've hardy met anyone in R/C programs without an MA, and people in those programs seem to have a bit more seasoning.

[lyonessrampant]

Haven't any idea in rhet/comp.  The top 10 English programs also are def. not the same as the top programs in rhet comp.  The poster is interested in formalist poetry, though, so I'm guessing more in the line of poetics, which means . . .not rhet/comp.  That said, I'd say my observation is not irrelevant.

[Dr. Old Bill]

For what it's worth, I'll be going straight from B.A. into a Ph.D. program. Or that's the ideal, anyhow. There may be one or two M.A. programs with mid-March application deadlines I might apply for if I strike out of my dozen or so Ph.D. choices, but I'm going into this with a "failure is not an option" mindset, even though failure is, of course, always a possibility. I won't be applying exclusively to top-10 programs -- Rice, Vanderbilt, UMD-CP, Penn State, and WUSTL are all on my radar -- but there will be several top-10s on there as well.

[sacklunch]

It will likely be something the committee brings up, particularly so if you point out your age in your SOP. I wouldn't even mention it. Doing so may also trigger the committee to think you are too aware of this 'shortcoming', inasmuch as it may hinder your own progress midway throughout the program. I'm at a T1 school and I have heard from several people (including faculty) over the years say that an applicant did not get in because of their age. They are investing hundreds of thousands of dollars in their doctoral students and they want your future work to make their department shine. Seeing as your age isn't 'relevant' for the style of an SOP, I would not address it. I finished school a bit later than 'normal', although still much earlier than you. I did not mention any of my pre-college activities simply because they were completely irrelevant with regards to my (then) proposed doctoral work. 

cheers

[unræd]

I'm in a somewhat similar boat--I'm just a few years younger than you, and also just entering my senior year. Neither the professors who have been shepherding and nudging me through the grad school application process nor the graduate students in my subfield at my current university have thought my age an issue, though!

 

That being said, it was a concern I've had, too, and so I'm very much on the same page as sacklunch's advice: at this point (and unless the readers for my SOP advise otherwise, of course) it's not something I'm going out of my way to mention in my SOP, since my prior work experiences out of high school are entirely irrelevant to my application, previous education, and research interests. 

 

I'll let you know if I get different advice as I continue the drafting process, though!

[Dr. Old Bill]

Welcome aboard the boat, Unræd! I'm calling it "Ship of Theseus."

 

Yes, I have decided to avoid mentioning it on my SOPs. It will be easy enough to read between the lines, but I'm not going to go on about how I'm 12 years older than many of my co-applicants. Like you, my prior work experience throughout my 20s had little to do with the English track, so it's just not worth mentioning anything in that regard.

 

Good luck to you throughout the process, and feel free to bounce any "older student" thoughts at me along the way if you'd like.

[unræd]

Will do! It'd be nice to have someone else who's going through the process as an "older student" to talk/commiserate/weep with.

[xolo]

I'm a hell of a lot older than mid 30s and I'm planning on going for a PhD.  If you think about it, universities are public, government funded institutions and are the land of the functionary (if that is the right word in English).  They have no real reason to discriminate against anyone for any reason, including age.  And they certainly can't openly express any prejudices, at least not in the USA.  I would be more concerned with the person with the personal viewpoint that is coloring their thoughts and actions.  Of course, you have to explain your future plans in your SOP and interview, right?  That is obviously going to need to be dealt with. 

[Dr. Old Bill]

Since I created this topic a few weeks ago, my concerns have mostly been allayed. I've contacted other professors and several current grad students at top tier institutions, not to mention some other recently accepted folks from GradCafe, and every single one has said that they don't see age as being an issue. Obviously there's no way of knowing whether or not it will subconsciously affect an adcomm's decision, but since that's truly out of one's hands, there's no sense in worrying about it.

[NowMoreSerious]

I applied to Ph.Ds as a 34 year old in 2013 and I used my age as an advantage by connecting my work experience to my literary interests.  I do feel a bit old sometimes but I'm young at heart (immature), so it all works out.  

[sacklunch]

I'm a hell of a lot older than mid 30s and I'm planning on going for a PhD.  If you think about it, universities are public, government funded institutions and are the land of the functionary (if that is the right word in English).  They have no real reason to discriminate against anyone for any reason, including age.  And they certainly can't openly express any prejudices, at least not in the USA.  I would be more concerned with the person with the personal viewpoint that is coloring their thoughts and actions.  Of course, you have to explain your future plans in your SOP and interview, right?  That is obviously going to need to be dealt with. 

 

While legally this may be the case here, I can almost guarantee, as the OP's adviser wrote, that some departments will discuss his/her age. In my related field I have heard of this 'conversation' occurring past the age of 35 or so. It's really nothing personal, but for their investment (upwards of 500k at many top schools) they want to take on someone who can 'maximize' the most years possible. Whether or not this is horseshit is another question. As the others said, don't mention it in your Statement. Don't treat is as a 'personal' story (as many have no doubt already told you), but as a sort of intellectual genealogy. Stick to your academic credentials and only mention something 'personal' if it pertains to your stated interests.