Master's in history in Europe?

[eurosc]

 I've heard that they don't ask for GPA or recommendation letters in Germany. Is that true? What about France, Spain, Italy?

 

About how much can you expect to pay in tuition? Do you need to know the language of the country or is there a hisotry master's program in English?

 

I heard England and Ireland tuition is more than others because they are English speaking. Is that true?

[CageFree]

You should probably address those questions to the programs you're interested in. Visit their websites and do some research.

[L13]

There's something charmingly nonsensical about the assumption that university tuition is higher in two English-speaking countries than it is elsewhere because they are English-speaking.

 

Do German autobahns not have speed limits because Germans speak German?

[eurosc]

At least that's what I heard.

 

I was assuming that might be because most programs would be in their own language so that if international students want the benefit of a cheap education they would have to go through the trouble of learning a whole new language whereas if you go to England or America you probably already learned English in high school so there's not much of a language barrier, and so schools can afford to charge a premium on international students while for other European languages the language barrier works as a filter.

[TMP]

That is an outrageous assumption about tuition in the UK.  It's simply economics.  As long as international students demand the opportunity to study in well-regard universities like Cambridge or Berkeley, those universities can charge higher for out-of-country students.  International students (and would-be like yourself) want to study in another country and are willing to pay extra for that chance.

 

In Germany, you do need to pass Deutsche Am Fremdsprache exam which is equivalent of TOESL for German universities. if you get one of the DAAD scholarships, you will be required to study German language for six months prior to entering the university (and continue thereafter until you really master the language).  Universities are free to German citizens but are fairly cheap... yet, international students will run into numerous bureaucratic issues (university, the city, the embrassy, etc, etc) and shell out money to get this form or that visa or this or that.

 

You will need to do some serious homework.  Try visiting some ex-pat forums.

[maelia8]

I've studied abroad in Germany. They don't ask for recommendation letters, but they do normally require your GPA, although it has to be converted to the German grading system in order for them to determine if you pass the "Numerus Klausus" (cutoff grade) if you're trying to get into a competitive department (often foreign language, teaching, hard science, and medicine will require this). You can either pass the DAF (Deutsch als Fremdsprache) Test with a certain cutoff grade that varies from university to university, or you can get a Goethe Institut language certificate (usually at least level 2 is required).

 

Getting the visa to study in Germany is not expensive or difficult once you're in Germany and have already been accepted to the university in advance (Americans do not have to apply for a visa until after they arrive), but the German bureaucracy is complex and well-nigh unnavigable if you don't speak at least intermediate German. Tuition at the university is vastly cheaper than American university tuition (my full fees were about 280 Euros per semester, or $375), but unless you have a stipend, such as from DAAD, to pay for your housing and living costs, it will be pretty hard to live there unless you are independently wealthy, as foreign students can only work a side job earning up to 400 Euros per month and that's not even enough to cover rent if you're in a large city like Berlin or Munich. 

 

Also, applying for DAAD funding must be done very far in advance (December/January of the year before the Autumn when you plan to start), and by the time you apply, you must have already been accepted into a program in Germany, so take your time in preparing.

[HistoireDes]

Are History PhDs in Europe 3 years long?

If you get your PhD in History in Europe, are you limited to job offers in Europe mostly?

If you want to get a PhD in France, Spain, or Italy instead of Germany, what is the process like?

[tbjacks]

Are History PhDs in Europe 3 years long?

If you get your PhD in History in Europe, are you limited to job offers in Europe mostly?

 

I can answer two of those questions! Ph.D.'s in the UK are shorter as candidates don't have to take classes--they get right into their research.

 

If you get your Ph.D. in the UK, whose institutions focus much more on research than teaching (whereas in the U.S. there is a large emphasis on teaching), you're much more likely to get a job there than in North America, at least for your first decade or so of your career.

 

I can't speak for continental Europe, though.

[HistoireDes]

Shorter, as in how many years shorter? What about Master's are they mostly 1 year program in the UK?

Do professors in UK teach less and research more too?

[HistoireDes]

If you get your Ph.D. in the UK, whose institutions focus much more on research than teaching (whereas in the U.S. there is a large emphasis on teaching), you're much more likely to get a job there than in North America, at least for your first decade or so of your career.

 

 

I like the fact that they focus much more on research than teaching. Does that mean if you become a professor in UK, you will not spend as much time teaching and more time researching, unlike the US?

 

Are there any forums geared towards finding more about grad school programs in UK and elsewhere in Europe?

 

 

[czesc]

The Student Room (studentroom.co.uk) is an admissions forum like this one largely geared toward UK programs, both grad and undergrad (look for the "postgraduate" forum; that's the UK term for "graduate").

 

Keep in mind that UK PhDs don't require courses because you're required to do a standalone MA or MPhil prior to being admitted. Also note that, when it comes to history, you definitely won't be barred from American universities with an Oxford or Cambridge PhD; in fact, these dominate the better departments. Other British university PhDs might put you at a disadvantage, though. In any case there are ways to get teaching experience in the UK right out of a PhD that you could potentially use to leap back to an American university, but the combined time might equal or go beyond that required to complete a US PhD.

Edited October 23, 2014 by czesc

[dr. t]

Also note that, when it comes to history, you definitely won't be barred from American universities with an Oxford or Cambridge PhD; in fact, these dominate the better departments

 

Huh. This is not my experience at all.

[czesc]

Huh. This is not my experience at all.

 

Maybe "dominate" was too strong a word. They are tied for 12th (with Johns Hopkins) for most PhDs in top 20 US history departments, beating Cornell, Brown, Northwestern, Duke, NYU, UNC Chapel Hill, and many others.

 

Yale alone has seven historians who earned their PhDs from Oxford, and two more who earned theirs at Cambridge.

Edited October 24, 2014 by czesc

[dr. t]

I wonder how field-specific it is. I am currently trying to thing of a US-based Oxbridge-trained medievalist and drawing an utter blank.

[czesc]

I wonder how field-specific it is. I am currently trying to thing of a US-based Oxbridge-trained medievalist and drawing an utter blank.

 

Yeah, I don't have a breakdown by field, so you may be right that few US medievalists come from Oxbridge.

 

Do you count Byzantine-ists as medievalists? Because in that case, I found at least one: http://www.princeton.edu/history/people/display_person.xml?netid=cshawcro

[dr. t]

Do you count Byzantine-ists as medievalists?

 

I'll take the 5th 

[L13]

I have also noticed a lot of Oxford/Cambridge DPhils/PhDs in humanities departments in the US, in particular at my small liberal arts college, though I haven't tried to track their performance by discipline or sub-field. That being said, I just went on the faculty page of a random 'top' history department, UChicago, and found 3 Cambridge PhDs (and several other European ones). I think given that a relatively small proportion of Cambridge PhDs vie for academic jobs in the States, compared to the graduates of the top US departments, that is a very good showing for Cambridge.

 

That's why this board's ceaseless refrain of "Don't go to the UK if you want to work in the US" seems a little overblown to me. I don't think a doctorate from Oxford or Cambridge (or, for that matter, from King's, St Andrews or UCL) is as big an impediment as some people think. In particular, I think top research universities that try to position themselves as knowledge producers of global significance are not shy about hiring Oxbridge grads at all. Regional US departments, on the other hand, especially if they focus on local history and/or don't have a lot of in-the-know faculty, may be more prejudiced. (These guesses are based on what I've observed, but they're by no means scientific.)

 

On the subject of the fabled lack of teaching opportunities in the UK, based on my own experience I think that is a particularly baseless worry. I spent a year at Oxford as a visiting undergraduate. One of my tutors there was a DPhil student, and one had just gotten their doctorate (but had taught other undergraduates before). A casual acquaintance I made in my college, a DPhil student in medieval history, told me they had some light teaching duties. A DPhil student sat in on the discussion class for one of my history courses and observed the professor who led it because they (the DPhil student) were required to do that before they could lead their own discussion classes, which they were supposed to start doing in the next academic term. A DPhil student in archaeology told me about supervising student tutorials and class discussions. Et cetera, et cetera.

 

In summary, it's definitely not true you can't get teaching experience as a grad student at Oxford. (I can't speak to Cambridge or other places in the UK.)

 

I think many US departments are well aware of these things and don't necessarily view Oxbridge job candidates with the jaundiced eye this board imagines.

[dr. t]

That's why this board's ceaseless refrain of "Don't go to the UK if you want to work in the US" seems a little overblown to me.

 

To be fair, this is also advice I have received directly from three different professors at Harvard, one of whom did his degree abroad.

 

It might also be productive to distinguish between Europeans with European degrees and Americans with European degrees.

Edited October 26, 2014 by telkanuru