DO NOT apply to Wisconsin Madison

[GeoDUDE!]

And the most pointless post of the year goes to...

 

I love how all your points are either strawman or insulting. 

 

Grow up.

 

I know I've had applications rejected without an adcom ever seeing it... it happens to everyone except the top of the top candidates. 

[Pol]

And the most pointless post of the year goes to...

 

I'd say justin123 for starting this thread but you're a close second.

[Between Fields]

Interesting argument that shows quite a bit about how people interpret ambiguous terms in different ways. Like "application fee" or "processing". I find myself pretty much leaning toward Justin123's point of view, which is that in exchange for his application fee, his application should have been evaluated by someone qualified to make the evaluation. I don't feel this is "entitlement" or "whiny" or someone complaining about not getting into a school or into a safety school. I think it's reasonable to expect service for payment. Had the university made it clear what the application fee was not to pay for evaluation of the application, I don't think Justin123 would have made this thread in the first place.

 

But, to review:

 

1. The student paid the university an application fee.

2. The student submitted the application.

 

What should the student then reasonably expect in exchange for the money spent on the application fee?

 

1. That the application will be reviewed by at least one person with the qualifications to evaluate the suitability of the student.

or 2. That the application will be "processed", which has an ambiguous meaning that involves anything from full adcomm review to a low-paid office worker sorting applications into stacks based on predetermined criteria that he or she has absolutely no say in and, further, who possesses no qualifications for evaluating the suitability of the application in any event. He or she might even be a computer program.

 

In other words, in exchange for the application fee, what responsibilities does the graduate school have and the individual program have in regards to that application? The essential disagreement seems to be this:

 

1. The application should be reviewed by the adcomm.

vs. 2. The application should be processed, that is, put into the system by people not qualified to evaluate an applicant's suitability, where it will be available for review should the adcomm choose to review it.

 

My belief is that in exchange for an application fee, each application should be evaluated at some point by someone qualified to evaluate the applicant's suitability. In this view, what the program did to some international applicants is unethical. Though, frankly, I would be shocked if there was a program on the planet that didn't believe that their only responsibility toward an application in exchange for an application fee was to have some low-wage peon put it in the system, if a computer program didn't already do that for them.

 

Additionally, the OP's emailer is a PR moron. American business institutions have perfected the art of prevarication. S/he should be fired for being so honest.

 

I agree with you, mostly, in terms of applications deserving review by a committee set out by the university to review them. I'm a little disappointed, though, that someone on this forum would refer to the professionals in university graduate schools and colleges as "peons," though. Even when computers are involved in collecting applications, it requires a significant amount of human intervention to review international applicants and code them properly for GPA (which often requires contact with the registrar's office at the university and often translation assistance) and to otherwise make them work for admissions committees. 

 

It's likely that that low-paid person does sort applications into piles, but it's equally likely that all of the piles make it to the admissions committee. It's also very likely that said person is familiar with the school/college's requirements for international graduate students and would be qualified to at least flag a file that wouldn't make it past the school's review process if it got to and from the department. (When I did this I had a bachelor's degree, and later a master's degree, and office staff in graduate schools often [but not always] have at least an undergraduate degree.) Some things like test scores and GPAs are non-negotiable on the college's end, and while those files often still get passed to the department, they don't have a shot unless someone takes a real interest in them. International applicants can be in the same boat at state schools, and that's just a reality of our system, which sucks. 

 

Everyone should get a fair shot, but it's simply not collegial to refer to admissions staff by their pay grade in such a disparaging way.

[peachypie]

WHOA...danielewrites.... "fired for being so honest"!?!

Your whole premise banks on how unethical it was for the university to be so shady and then say someone should be fired for being so honest unlike business institutions who have prevarication down to a science?!

You need to watch your logic.

 

My whole issue in what justin123 is saying is that the whole argument is based on the ASSUMPTION that the university did not review the application.  

If they never reviewed your file how would they know you were an international/domestic applicant?  Your application was not unseen. 

 

School's are able to do what they want with your application, there is no contractual obligation that they fulfill to you.  period.

 

Here is a killer ,what about all the domestic applicants who apply?  How are they sorted?  How do we know they even got all their applications reviewed?  They probably didn't.  I'm sure most applicants went in some early round of dismissals without much review, but that is just how the system works FOR EVERYONE.   Is it a shock to you that an international applicant who will cost the university more money than others would  maybe rank lower on priority of review?  There is no saying there aren't international students at UW-Madison for PhD....but maybe they reached out to professors beforehand, established a relationship, maybe they visited campus, had a connection to a program, who knows...but it wasn't you.  The university didn't do anything wrong, you are just unhappy with not being given a priority that no one gets.  

 

The only true data I see here is this:  you applied as an applicant.  you were rejected.  

 

Here are a few things you may not have considered...when people bug the admin's during the application period, they get a reputation for themselves.  It already becomes known what kind of applicant and therein what kind of student is the one emailing imploring information and I can only imagine what kind of emails had been written to this person. Also domestic applicants are prioritized too.  Did you know that when they get a lot of local or nearby applicants they can afford more applicants to come in?  That means heaven forbid that its easier to get an invite if you don't cost as much to get there.  A school says we can interview 5 applicants or 15....which one do you think the school wants to do?  If you are an international applicant and will take the cost of 5 domestic applicants that means you have to be worth losing 5 other applicants to take that spot.  Justin123 even admitted himself that UW-Madison was not his top choice.  So he would have gone, and declined an offer likely.  Yet is calling the institution unethical for not prioritizing his application.  

 

Sounds to me like UW-Madison actually screened the applicant pool correctly.  

[peachypie]

You see no problem with a school accepting $100 and not opening your envelope? I'd love to see how you react if that happened to you.

 I'm sure it has happened to me.  I have no issue with it.  Just how the cookie crumbles.

[Igotnothin]

 I'm sure it has happened to me.  I have no issue with it.  Just how the cookie crumbles.

 

So you gather information on the department and decide to apply. You spend 5-10 hours filling out the application, writing essays, etc. You have 3 professors submit letters on your behalf. You pay $30 for GRE scores and $100 for the app fee. Three months later, you (somehow) find out that you were rejected without any review. You have no issue with it? That's just how the cookie crumbles? 

 

That's not how I would react.

[gliaful]

Three months later, you (somehow) find out that you were rejected without any review.

 

 

If they never reviewed your file how would they know you were an international/domestic applicant?  Your application was not unseen. 

 

Reiterating what peachypie said...they would HAVE to review your file to figure out you were an international applicant. Did you read/consider this, or anything else peachypie said?

 

If I applied to a school in a country that isn't my home country, I would assume that my app would be looked at following the domestic applicants. Especially in schools that are state-, province-, or country-funded. I don't pay taxes in any country other than my home country; the fact that the institution would be even WILLING to look at my app would be meaningful to me.

 

Yeah, it's the way the cookie crumbles, even for domestic applicants. The neuro department at University of Washington said they fully reviewed less than half of all submitted applications, which includes many domestic applicants. Some schools use filters, such as GPA and GRE scores, to "review" (filter out) a large number of applications, because admissions committees are comprised of humans. In the interests of inviting applicants in a reasonable time period, not all applications can be fully reviewed.

 

Sorry, it's unfortunate. I understand where you are coming from -- but it's the nature of the beast.

[GeoDUDE!]

So you gather information on the department and decide to apply. You spend 5-10 hours filling out the application, writing essays, etc. You have 3 professors submit letters on your behalf. You pay $30 for GRE scores and $100 for the app fee. Three months later, you (somehow) find out that you were rejected without any review. You have no issue with it? That's just how the cookie crumbles? 

 

That's not how I would react.

 

 

I spent about ~6 hours total applying to 6 schools. If it really takes you 5-10 hours to fill out a single application then there are larger problems here. 

[PeterPanComplex]

I spent about ~6 hours total applying to 6 schools. If it really takes you 5-10 hours to fill out a single application then there are larger problems here. 

I'm not necessarily agreeing with the original post, but that's a low blow dude... Also quite self-righteous and condescending... This is a stressful process for many people, and it goes differently for everyone... you don't need to resort to those kinds of comments to make a point.

Edited December 27, 2014 by MSBS

[Maxtini]

I think the problem is not with screening and reviewing process per se, but with the charges of the application fee.

 

The application fee for most US university is exorbitantly expensive to the point that you'd expect to get some kind of "standard service" in return for such payment.

I don't think it is in anyway justified for a university to charge US$100 for reviewing an application in such a way.

 

I myself really pissed off with several of the universities I'm applying to~  

Due to my mononymous name, my GRE and TOEFL score cannot be matched properly. From most universities, I received a very helpful reply when I told them about this. But there are a few universities whose admission offices are really terrible, even in a way dismissal about my problem. And one university never reply me back (I even re-sent my email thrice!!) even though their website explicitly told me to email them. As a result I wasted my whole US$110 without ever getting my application completed (GRE and TOEFL score not received) and probably never going to be reviewed. 

Edited December 27, 2014 by Maxtini

[NWFreeheel11]

I hope this whole thread realizes that this debate is about the woes of an unfair life. Sometimes things are not fair. Like Pasteltomato said about UW, not all of the apps are even reviewed. I am a domestic applicant, but because my MOST RECENT research experience was not in the same field, I was immediately rejected without further review. They could tell this from my CV and did not even read my essay or letters. They received over 350+ applications for 12 spots. Decisions had to be made and I didn't make the cut. 

 

I am not going to start a malicious thread about how unprofessional they are. Shit happens, move on and look forward to all the great applications and interviews still in the running. If you are not a fan of how the ENTIRE US runs PhD applications, then don't apply to US schools. You can't play the game and expect them to change the rules for you, and if you don't like the rules, then don't play. 

 

Our application fees pay the salary of the people they dedicate to caring for the program and the application process. Funding is tight, especially recently (our whole government shut down briefly), so if they can use app fees to pay salary then they can use more grant money for research! Win win for everyone in my opinion. I knew it was going to cost ~$130 per app with GRE, so I save enough for my apps and planned ahead. No surprises, and no hard feelings towards schools like UW. 

[Vene]

Just remember people, if you want universities to review every application in detail the application fee will skyrocket. That's asking for quite a time commitment from a significant number of people and you've got to pay for that somehow.

[Vene]

So you gather information on the department and decide to apply. You spend 5-10 hours filling out the application, writing essays, etc. You have 3 professors submit letters on your behalf. You pay $30 for GRE scores and $100 for the app fee. Three months later, you (somehow) find out that you were rejected without any review. You have no issue with it? That's just how the cookie crumbles? 

 

That's not how I would react.

It may take that much time for the first application, but who in their right mind starts the application process for each school from scratch? The marginal time cost of an additional university is not that great.

[Maxtini]

That's why I really appreciate the pre-application policy some departments are having. Essentially they would just do a quick screen to your GPA and GRE score and told you whether they will consider your application or not.

This is much fairer to anyone, but it would mean the university get less money.

[Igotnothin]

Reiterating what peachypie said...they would HAVE to review your file to figure out you were an international applicant. Did you read/consider this, or anything else peachypie said?

 

...

 

Yeah, it's the way the cookie crumbles, even for domestic applicants. The neuro department at University of Washington said they fully reviewed less than half of all submitted applications, which includes many domestic applicants. Some schools use filters, such as GPA and GRE scores, to "review" (filter out) a large number of applications, because admissions committees are comprised of humans. In the interests of inviting applicants in a reasonable time period, not all applications can be fully reviewed.

 

My point is that sorting the applications into a "domestic" and "international" stack and throwing away the international ones does not constitute a meaningful review. I have no problem with GPA or GRE filters. I have a problem with a school charging somebody $130 despite the fact that they have zero probability of acceptance (in years where domestics fill all available spots). Not only is it unfair to the student, but I think it's bad for the department. They're willing to fill their seats with domestics without considering that a few of the international applicants could be head and shoulders more qualified than the domestics. If I was in the adcom's shoes I would be more inclined to go after the best of the best, as opposed to finding 12 "good enough" domestic applicants.

 

Congrats to GeoDUDE for spending a total of 6 hours on grad school applications. One solid afternoon of work?

[NWFreeheel11]

They're willing to fill their seats with domestics without considering that a few of the international applicants could be head and shoulders more qualified than the domestics. If I was in the adcom's shoes I would be more inclined to go after the best of the best, as opposed to finding 12 "good enough" domestic applicants.

 

Haha, you KNOW they fill the spots with the best of the best, and if they can't do that with domestic applicants, then they do it with international ones. Programs do not accept students just to fill spots. They would have a small class before they admit someone they don't think is good for their program. NO program that receives 200+ applications reviews every application. Not even every domestic applicant. I feel that now you are just grasping at ways to insult the program. 

[Igotnothin]

I hope this whole thread realizes that this debate is about the woes of an unfair life. Sometimes things are not fair. Like Pasteltomato said about UW, not all of the apps are even reviewed. I am a domestic applicant, but because my MOST RECENT research experience was not in the same field, I was immediately rejected without further review. They could tell this from my CV and did not even read my essay or letters. They received over 350+ applications for 12 spots. Decisions had to be made and I didn't make the cut. 

 

...

 

Our application fees pay the salary of the people they dedicate to caring for the program and the application process. Funding is tight, especially recently (our whole government shut down briefly), so if they can use app fees to pay salary then they can use more grant money for research! Win win for everyone in my opinion. I knew it was going to cost ~$130 per app with GRE, so I save enough for my apps and planned ahead. No surprises, and no hard feelings towards schools like UW. 

 

I have to say I strongly disagree with the idea of going through life with the attitude "Sometimes things aren't fair." Is that how you react whenever somebody takes advantage of you? When somebody takes $130 from you without anything in return?

 

Charging $130 for no *meaningful* review is not a win-win. It's a shitty way to squeeze money from people. Think how frustrating it would be if all schools did what UW does. An international applicant might apply to 10 schools and literally not get reviewed anywhere. That's not a win for the applicant.

[Igotnothin]

Haha, you KNOW they fill the spots with the best of the best, and if they can't do that with domestic applicants, then they do it with international ones. Programs do not accept students just to fill spots. They would have a small class before they admit someone they don't think is good for their program. NO program that receives 200+ applications reviews every application. Not even every domestic applicant. I feel that now you are just grasping at ways to insult the program. 

 

"Best" is a relative term. To get the best 10 applicants out of a pool of 200, you would have to in some way determine that those 10 are "better" than the other 190. I am not sure how you would do this without evaluating all 200.

[gliaful]

I have never seen a program report that it has a student body containing 0% international students. Typically the value is much higher than 0% (anywhere from 5-30%).

Therefore, at least one international student has been admitted to every school, within the last 5 years.

So, it follows that the international stack of applications is not just "thrown away", because somebody gets in.

 

You always have the option of emailing a school (before paying $130) to ask about your chances as an international applicant. 

Some schools, like UW, require internationals to establish a relationship with a faculty sponsor, who will support their application/logistics of bringing you to the US to interview.

Some schools might hold this policy even if it isn't stated upfront.

Emailing and asking for information might save you $130, but you do have to remember that paying $130 doesn't buy you (or anyone) an interview.

[Igotnothin]

I have never seen a program report that it has a student body containing 0% international students. Typically the value is much higher than 0% (anywhere from 5-30%).

Therefore, at least one international student has been admitted to every school, within the last 5 years.

So, it follows that the international stack of applications is not just "thrown away", because somebody gets in.

 

You always have the option of emailing a school (before paying $130) to ask about your chances as an international applicant. 

Some schools, like UW, require internationals to establish a relationship with a faculty sponsor, who will support their application/logistics of bringing you to the US to interview.

Some schools might hold this policy even if it isn't stated upfront.

Emailing and asking for information might save you $130, but you do have to remember that paying $130 doesn't buy you (or anyone) an interview.

 

 

But for this year's applicant, it doesn't matter whether international applicants were reviewed in previous years, it matters whether they are reviewed this year. In a year where domestics fill all seats in "phase 1" of the review process, the probability of acceptance for international applicants is zero.

[NWFreeheel11]

I have to say I strongly disagree with the idea of going through life with the attitude "Sometimes things aren't fair." Is that how you react whenever somebody takes advantage of you? When somebody takes $130 from you without anything in return?

 

Charging $130 for no *meaningful* review is not a win-win. It's a shitty way to squeeze money from people. Think how frustrating it would be if all schools did what UW does. An international applicant might apply to 10 schools and literally not get reviewed anywhere. That's not a win for the applicant.

 

US schools (especially publicly funded) are designed first and foremost to educate US citizens. 

[Igotnothin]

US schools (especially publicly funded) are designed first and foremost to educate US citizens. 

 

Fair point, but once you start accepting applications (and application fees) from international students, I think it's hard to justify a rejection without review.

[gliaful]

Fair point, but once you start accepting applications (and application fees) from international students, I think it's hard to justify a rejection without review.

I'm still not sure where you're getting the idea that schools didn't review your application.

[Igotnothin]

All right I am no longer going to address the issue of whether discarding an application after seeing that it is from an international student constitutes an evaluation.

[gliaful]

No, I'm sorry -- I'm not trying to argue that determining that an app is from an international student constitutes a review.

I meant to say: how are you sure that these schools didn't give you a full evaluation? I don't know how one would obtain that information, so I'm curious.