Dismissed from Grad Program? Should I reapply?

[desi_firangi]

Hi!

 

I was dismissed from Grad Program due to bad grades and failing to maintain 3.0

I'm an European student and the way PhD is done in most European countries is very different from the US, even after 1 year of PhD, I had not done any actual research or experiments in the lab. All the time was spent in courses which I felt were not directly related to my research and I had to take them as my PI would have it no other way. I lost motivation and my grades suffered and finally I was dismissed. I am still keen to pursue a PhD in the US as the economic and job situation is much better in the USA compared to EU and rest of the world. Pls guide me if I should re-apply and if I would get admission.

 

Thanks

[ProfLorax]

How far along were you in your former PhD program? At any point, did you start to turn things around? Can you show the adcomms that, while Fall semester was a tough adjustment period, you figured things out in Spring?

 

I ask these questions because most PhD programs in the US will have the same format: coursework in the first few years, and oftentimes, you will have to take some courses that are only tangentially related to your interests. If you didn't like this structure in your former program, do you think you'll do better in a different program that still follows the same structure?

[desi_firangi]

I was there for 2 semesters. After 1st semester I was put on probation and given one semester to bring up my grades and I did get A in one course and I did manage to get my grades up but not above 3.0 and the dept was unwillingly to let me continue, they said that while I'm a good student, I'm not a good fit for the department and the program. 

 

Now I'm more aware of the education system and know what needs to be done and I think I'm better at time-management and juggling many balls together but my major concern is how can I overcome the dismissal and justify it in other grad applications. If I understand correctly in the grad application, I'll have to mention each education institution I attended after high school.

 

Pls help

[Vene]

You're going to be a hard sell at this point. At a glance it's going to appear that you weren't able to handle graduate level coursework and you are going to have to find a way to convince adcoms that you can. You have quite an uphill battle, especially since you're applying again so soon.

[biisis]

I'd suggest taking some time to work in the field if you can, to put some distance between your bad experience and hopefully get a better sense of what you'd ultimately like to research and how to go about doing it. You'll also need new references, by the sounds of it...

[ProfLorax]

I was there for 2 semesters. After 1st semester I was put on probation and given one semester to bring up my grades and I did get A in one course and I did manage to get my grades up but not above 3.0 and the dept was unwillingly to let me continue, they said that while I'm a good student, I'm not a good fit for the department and the program. 

 

Now I'm more aware of the education system and know what needs to be done and I think I'm better at time-management and juggling many balls together but my major concern is how can I overcome the dismissal and justify it in other grad applications. If I understand correctly in the grad application, I'll have to mention each education institution I attended after high school.

 

Pls help

I agree with the others. It isn't impossible, but it will be a hard sell. If you were able to get all A's your second semester, you would be able to highlight your improvement over time. But to be under a 3.0 after a full year? That's tricky to explain. 

 

You say that you are better at time management now, but any adcomms will want to see the evidence. Could you take grad classes as a non-matriculating student? Find a way to score a straight A semester at the grad-level at some institution? Some universities have post-bachelor programs in the sciences, right? 

[lyonessrampant]

Since you're in the sciences, I think you would be better served to get work experience (as mentioned above), try to do a postbacc (mentioned above) so you get some research experience and additional coursework, or maybe try to do the MA.  In some research fields, the Ph.D. isn't needed for industry work, and it might even be a disadvantage.  Is that the case for your specific area?  Where do you want to end up (in a university or in industry)?  Figuring that out might guide your decisions now.

 

That said, I think you're going to find that it is very difficult for you to reapply having been dismissed already by one Ph.D. program.

[St Andrews Lynx]

Most American PhD programs are going to involve coursework in the first few years, with little research. It is easy to say 'Oh, I've learned my lesson, I will study harder next time' - but unfortunately the only definite thing you have is your previous non-stellar track-record. Based on your track record, most admissions committees would assume that you'd continue the bad grade trend. 

 

I would also argue against your assertion that it must be an American PhD or nothing to ensure a good job. I would argue that America is not doing much better than the EU: a lot of industrial jobs are "being relocated" from the West to the Far East. Compared to European regulations, America has lousy job security, atrocious work-life balance (not only do Americans get fewer paid holidays...but don't even take all the holidays they get) and poor benefits (maternity leave is unpaid, usually). In contrast, Switzerland and Germany still have strong scientific/manufacturing industries and retain reasonable working conditions, whilst the Nordic counties have really great social safety nets. 

 

If the American PhD isn't suited to you (and even if you get into a new program you'll have to repeat the same heavy coursework requirements again - you didn't sound too enthused about that in your original post), then I would just get a PhD from a good European university and plan to complete a postdoc in the USA. EU PhD & US postdoc is really common, and the European universities would probably care less about your bad coursework grades, since coursework isn't usually a part of their PhD programs.

[desi_firangi]

I already have a Master's degree. I want to work in the industry in R&D and most positions I saw require PhD with post-doc experience, that is one primary reason why I want to pursue PhD. While I completely agree about the work-life balance, benefits argument, the pay is usually better in The US. While manufacturing has shifted to Far East, most of R & D is still done in the west.

 

If I apply for a PhD in Europe, should I ask for references from my professors at my previous US university? My M.S. references are now outdated as it's been two years since Graduation.

 

What are post baccalaureate courses and how are they different from Graduate courses? Wouldn't I be required to get admission to Grad school to take post baccalaureate courses? 

Edited November 3, 2014 by desi_firangi

[lyonessrampant]

If you already have an MA, then you would be ineligible for a postbacc.  They are programs or jobs that are designed to improve an undergrad's GPA or CV if said undergrad (now BA or BS holder) either has a weaker GPA, not a lot of science courses, or not a lot of lab experience.  If you have a good relationship with any professors in your previous program, I would suggest speaking to them about potential options would be best.  They'll know you and have ideas about how best to move forward.  While you might be able to use one or two letters from your MA professors, you'll need at least one from the Ph.D. program.  Maybe it can come from the prof of the course you got an A in second semester.  This letter would ideally speak about your growth in that semester and say that this person thinks you have learned how to navigate and succeed in the US system.  I think that either trying to get some work experience and then applying again to US programs or doing the European Ph.D. and US postdoc is really your only option if you're set on the Ph.D.  Good luck!

[TakeruK]

It's too bad that you were not more aware of the differences with the US PhD programs. As others said, this is going to be true in almost all programs in the US. 

 

I think the best way forward is put more distance between your next application and your previous academic record. As others said, you already have a Masters so it does not make sense for you do take any more courses etc. Sure, that might show that you can now handle courses, but I don't think this will be that beneficial for you.

 

Instead, I agree with those suggesting more work experience. In the sciences, the best way to make up for lack of academic performance is to demonstrate strong research ability. A lot of schools won't mind that your GPA is around 3.0 if you are producing a ton of papers and science. With increased experience you can try again in a few years.

 

Or, you can consider finishing a PhD in the EU, produce a lot of research, and then get postdoc positions in the US? This will also allow you to end up with US experience and potentially a US career.

 

Both of these suggested paths won't be easy -- as others said, you'll still be a tough sell since you were dismissed from grad school before, and it's generally harder for people with PhDs from EU to get jobs in the US and vice versa. However, it's not impossible! Also, I think if you don't succeed in these paths, then at least you have something useful (more work experience for other careers, or a PhD!), whereas if you just took more courses and then don't get into a new program then you will be just where you are today.

[juilletmercredi]

I agree that you need time away.  You might want to find a research position that you can do with an MS for 2-3 years and do that.

 

But you also need an advocate - someone from your current/former doctoral program who is willing to go to bat for you.  You need a professor who is willing to say that despite the rocky grades, you were an excellent student and are cut out to be a researcher - but the particular program you attended just was not the right fit.  Ideally this professor would be your research mentor/advisor, but a professor you took a class or two with or the director of graduate studies would also be acceptable.

 

Professors are often good people to explain roadblocks or rocky situations because it sounds less subjective coming from them.  Instead of potentially sounding like you making excuses, it sounds like someone who believes in you genuinely explaining an unfortunate fluke.

 

Also, 2 years is not too out of date.  If you were applying for an American PhD right now, I would say you could get 1-2 letters from the MS program and 1-2 letters from the current doctoral program.