Questions for MA students/grads about evaluating MA programs

[popsteady]

To all the MA students and graduates out there, I was hoping to ask some advice...

 

For someone who has just been fortunate enough to be accepted into a few MA programs and is in the process of determining which one to attend, what advice would you offer to help evaluate the different programs? What questions would you recommend asking the graduate directors and current students?

 

Beyond the logistical issues like funding and location, there are considerations like the professors' AOIs, the levels of student-teacher interaction, and the philosophical community at large (which are things that can be researched before applying, at least to some extent), but I wanted to see if anyone can offer any additional insight based on their experiences from within the programs. What other questions do you think are important to ask? Are there any questions you wished you would have asked, knowing what you know now?

[CNK 80Q3]

First, I would strongly recommend that you ask about the type of support that is offered to students to travel and present at conferences. Some programs might not have any, while some will have only a little. If the available funding seems low, ask if there is any way to get external grants from the university for travel.

 

I would also recommend that you ask about the average class size for a graduate seminar. Since one of the active goals you ought to have while attending an MA is to cultivate a strong professional relationship with your professors in order to receive the strongest letters you can, class size may hinder the amount and quality of the interactions you have with them. Along the same lines, let the student teacher ratio be a factor in your decision. 

[MattDest]

Evaluating MA programs is not totally unlike evaluating PhD programs, in my opinion. A lot of the same questions seem to apply just as well at either level. Instead of looking at job placement, however, you want to be looking at placement in PhD programs if that is your ultimate goal. One thing that wasn't really apparent to me until after I left my MA institution was that I think depending on who your thesis advisor/committee was (especially if they are writing your LOR), it might impact your ability to place well at PhD programs when you go through that process. If you have an idea of what area your thesis might be in, you might ask students or the faculty directly how students in those areas tend to do in PhD applications. 

[DontFly]

Being someone just moving from a terminal MA to a PhD program (elsewhere, as my current department doesn't have PhD program), here's what I want to say:

 

I take it that you are aware of funding issues. The key thing is that it is very difficult as well as uncommon for a department to adequately fund its MA students - they don't get a bad reputation if they don't fund them, and it's hard to justify to the university to fund them (since it is extremely common outside philosophy not to fund MA's, and also philosophy MA usually takes longer than other disciplines). So if this is something important to you, do ask very detailed questions and don't assume anything. (E.g., in many places you do get TA-ship, but you have lower priority.) My impression has been that places with only terminal MA tend to treat them better than places with PhD.

 

That takes me to my second point: the purpose of the MA program and the purpose of you going into an MA program. From the way you frame it I take that you're in a terminal MA? Many places (especially good ones) have an MA process as an initial step towards the PhD, and some still call it terminal (meaning you'd have to apply again if you want to stay for PhD). The problem is that many (by no means all) treat their MA students as lower-level PhD's, and this is bad because it means they're not preparing you for application. MA programs that are structured to familiarize you to their PhD is wildly different from programs that are structured to get you admitted by PhD elsewhere - you get less "cv-polishing" or networking opportunities; your project is usually too big for writing-sample-sized papers, etc.

 

On the other extreme, some terminal MA's are really "terminal" - people take it because they want an MA degree in philosophy, not as a stepping stone towards a higher degree. Places like these tend to be more expensive, take you longer to graduate, and, again, don't prepare you adequately for PhD programs. But on the plus side, they usually offer better courses.

 

One last group of programs: some programs (especially European ones) are extremely short. They're one year long, with little to no course work, little to no financial support. These programs can be good (and efficient) if all you want to do is to have a polished paper by the end of the year. I've had friends in these programs who tell me that it's not really "doing philosophy". It's very practical, but you probably wouldn't learn too much that you didn't know before or couldn't figure out on your own.

 

Depending on your purpose of pursuing an MA, I would recommend really try to figure out which of the above type does a program belong. This can be trickier than you think, because people inside the program tend to just take it for granted and assume everywhere runs like they do. Here're some questions you might want to consider:

 

- what's the percentage of people coming into the program / graduating with plans to move on? (You will get all types of people in any program. The key is the majority.)

- (This is something you'll have to figure out talking to students, rather than asking them directly): what kind of people come here and why? Is it just that they didn't get into any PhD programs? Or did they want more time to contemplate a life in academia? Are they from other disciplines wanting to go into philosophy and taking this as a stepping stone?

- how long does it *actually* take for people to graduate? If they take longer, do they come out better?

- what is the placement procedure? Is there one?

- How much attention do MA students get, as opposed to PhD students?

- Do MA students get to go to conferences? Are they financially supported to go to conferences?

- Do Ma students get offices? Do they interact with each other often? (what's really at issue: are they treated as an important part of the department? It's surprising how many departments treat their MA students as undergrads.)

 

BTW, I'm somewhat familiar with Canadian MA programs. If one of your admissions is from here, I'd be happy to answer questions you might have!

 

Finally - congratulations!

Edited March 1, 2015 by DontFly

[Monadology]

A lot of good advice here! Especially DontFly's advice.

 

Something DontFly touches on and which I want to emphasize if you are applying to an MA as a stepping stone to a PhD: look into what kind of support the programs offer for students who are applying to PhD programs. Do they have a writing sample workshop or something similar, for instance? Try to ask about the concrete details of how they support students in the placement process.

[Duns Eith]

Maybe it is worth adding to this conversation (perhaps it goes outside of the scope), if you went to an MA (e.g. UW-Milwaukee or wherever), what strengths did you find in your program that helped with placement? E.g. Did you have writing sample workshops, did you get funding for conference, CV workshops, etc.? Did your professors intentionally give feedback on your papers with a view toward writing samples, or did they only respond when prodded and nagged? Did your professors point out scholars or connect you with scholars for networking purposes? (whether in office hours, via email, or at conferences)

[Duns Eith]

popsteady:

Good questions. I only applied to places that were ranked for their placement scores, and in my statement of purpose (or in my spreadsheet for my apps) I mentioned the profs by name whom I was most interested in studying under (on account of their interests, publications, and status -- prof, assoc prof, assist prof, etc.).

 

In my case, I have only had one acceptance thus far, and it was for an MA.

 

But if I get more acceptances, the top considerations I will research for comparison sake are:

 

1) Actual placement records for getting into a PhD, whether the theses were advised by any faculty I was interested in, and where the MA students were placed. E.g. for Texas A&M there were some faculty I was really interested in who had advised people's theses and went onto schools I want to get into (Notre Dame, U of Mich, Purdue, UW Madison, U Chicago, etc.). If they got into those schools, it is likely because the caliber was up to snuff, but also that the faculty may have some personal connection with someone at the school. E.g. Texas A&M's Hugh McConn studied and taught at ND and one of his students he advised went onto ND. He has recently retired, but it is a good example. Unfortunately, also, I was rejected from TAMU.

 

2) What is the actual finance package? When they say tuition remission except fees, what does that actually look like? $150 a semester, or $950 a year? Likewise, does some of the living stipend partially (and necessarily) go toward health insurance, housing, or other costs? How is the stipend disbursed: initially in a sum, monthly, or bi-weekly?

 

3) What are their current course offerings? All MAs should have the general obvious ones (ancient, early modern, epistemology, logic, advanced ethics, etc.), but are there courses that you are dying to take that are in their rotation? A similar but almost insignificant question is whether their MA requires 28, 30, 33 or 36 credits to complete. Of course, take the thesis track if you want placement into a PhD. I can't think of a reason not to.

 

Many programs show all the classes they require for completion and what are electives. Chart out your ideal tracks at each school, and compare what those tracks look like. Get prof names on the list too, so you know whether you'll be working with the same people often (and hence will give a good, accurate assessment for letter-writing later; or if you are stuck with someone you are less than interested). If you look at the tracks and one is clearly more engaging and interesting, that could be helpful. Some courses are in specific rotation but unnamed (e.g. seminar on major philosophers -- you might need to ask what is being offered in the next year or so, since it will be blank on the website usually).

Edited March 1, 2015 by Turretin

[Establishment]

Check to see what courses have been offered in the past and how they align with your interests. I thought some MA programs looked nice based on faculty, but saw that the courses I wanted to take hadn't been offered in the past whereas at others they were being offered on a regular basis (for example, some MA programs only offered very basic logic classes, and others regularly offered some advanced stuff, despite the fact all the places had competent logicians).

 

Check placement records, in particular placement records correlated with thesis advisors or interests. Does one program excel in placing students in meta-ethics, and another in Kantian philosophy? Find out from current students what it's like working with the professors you are interested in. Are they difficult to work with, or absent?

 

Nthing to find out what sort of things school do to set students up for PhD programs. I've heard that at one MA program, most students do not write a thesis but take an exam option (which takes up a lot of their time). Which means they have to write a writing sample on their own. I've heard at another MA program that a thesis is required in order to apply out. I've heard at another MA program that there are writing workshops set up for students to write a good writing sample. If you're disciplined enough this might not matter. If you're not, then this might be important.

[verificationist]

I just wanted to say the following: consider British Master's programmes. Every well-respected British department has a terminal master's programme or its equivalent. And they are massively different from American ones. The thing is, master's programmes are typically considered by British departments as their entry point for graduate students, since no British department will admit you to their PhD if you don't have a Master's (sometimes even a 2-year Master's, or a one-year research oriented one). The obvious upside of this is that you'll be able to get recommendations from the faculty members.

 

I'll post most info about this later, but there are roughly three major types of UK Master's:

 

One year research/taught combination with summer dissertation. The best one here is undoubtedly Cambridge's, which I'd say is probably the best one-year philosophy Master's in the world. This is followed by St Andrews. Then Leeds, Sheffield and Birmingham.

 

One year pure taught master's. This is rubbish if you already have a philosophy degree. Not meant for people who want to pursue a PhD in Britain. BUT it might be a good entry point to philosophy if you come from another area, since people sometimes use it as a springboard for serious master's programmes. This includes UCL, Birkbeck and King's MA. There's also a similar programme in Manchester and Birmingham.

 

Two-year research master's. This is the real shit. They're highly competitive and are the entry points for departments that have a two-year PhD. So they're meant to give you the necessary training for you to go straight into writing a disseratation. They are so competitive because they expect you to be able to work independently right from your first year, and they'll expect you to have a research proposal before applying. It's only meant for the very top of undergrads from British universities. I only know two people who've got into those. They include Oxford's BPhil, followed by UCL, Birkbeck's and King's MPhil. The Oxford BPhil will get you into anywhere if you're assigned the right adviser.

 

Will post more later!

[Cecinestpasunphilosophe]

One year research/taught combination with summer dissertation. The best one here is undoubtedly Cambridge's, which I'd say is probably the best one-year philosophy Master's in the world. This is followed by St Andrews. Then Leeds, Sheffield and Birmingham.

 

...

 

Two-year research master's. This is the real shit. They're highly competitive and are the entry points for departments that have a two-year PhD. So they're meant to give you the necessary training for you to go straight into writing a disseratation. They are so competitive because they expect you to be able to work independently right from your first year, and they'll expect you to have a research proposal before applying. It's only meant for the very top of undergrads from British universities. I only know two people who've got into those. They include Oxford's BPhil, followed by UCL, Birkbeck's and King's MPhil. The Oxford BPhil will get you into anywhere if you're assigned the right adviser.

I actually wanted to make a separate post about these programs, but this seems like a suitable place to ask. Does anyone have any experience with the Cambridge one-year/Oxford two-year master's programs? I've applied to both, and I've been wondering how they work - do BPhil students have any teaching responsibilities? How does the coursework compare to the first two years of a direct-entry Ph.D. program in the States? Also, do BPhil students normally just continue on to do their DPhils are Oxford, or do most transfer to Stateside Ph.D. programs? 

It's fascinating - we spend a tremendous amount of time on these forums discussing American Ph.D. and M.A. programs, but I've seen very little discussion about programs in the U.K.!

[Page228]

Verificationist, would you mind clarifying the distinction between taught/research MAs and purely taught ("rubbish") MAs? When I looked up KCL and UCL (which you listed under the latter category) they seemed to include dissertations...

Here's King's: http://www.kcl.ac.uk/prospectus/graduate/philosophy/structure

(And thank you for the insights!)

[Gnothi_Seauton]

I just wanted to make a quick comment on verificationist's claim that one-year taught master's programs in the UK are "rubbish if you already have a philosophy degree."  I got my BA in philosophy and went on to one of those programs, though not one of the ones mentioned.  I learned a great deal, and I'm happy with how I did in Ph.D. admissions last year.  

 

That said, these programs wouldn't be the right choice for someone who has a BA in philosophy, did well, and intends to pursue doctoral studies in the UK.  That's true enough.  The standard path would be either a research-oriented MA (or M.Phil or B.Phil or whatever the relevant degree is) followed by a Ph.D. (or D.Phil as the case may be).  And I think that is verificationist's point, but I just wanted to emphasize that one-year taught master's programs in the UK are not necessarily worthless.  It really just depends on your ambitions.  If you are planning to do a Ph.D. in the UK, then they are, at best, a springboard to a research-oriented master's program.  If, on the other hand, you plan to do a Ph.D. in the US, those programs are a solid alternative to a US terminal MA.  And you finish in half the time!

[Duns Eith]

Nthing to find out what sort of things school do to set students up for PhD programs. I've heard that at one MA program, most students do not write a thesis but take an exam option (which takes up a lot of their time). Which means they have to write a writing sample on their own. I've heard at another MA program that a thesis is required in order to apply out. I've heard at another MA program that there are writing workshops set up for students to write a good writing sample. If you're disciplined enough this might not matter. If you're not, then this might be important.

Yeah, for example, the DGS of Western Michigan said most students don't take the thesis track in their program (it has a high placement record, btw), whereas I spoke with the MA director for TAMU and he said that almost everyone (no one in last few years) has elected the non-thesis option.

I was kinda surprised by both statements.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Turretin

[verificationist]

Verificationist, would you mind clarifying the distinction between taught/research MAs and purely taught ("rubbish") MAs? When I looked up KCL and UCL (which you listed under the latter category) they seemed to include dissertations...

Here's King's: http://www.kcl.ac.uk/prospectus/graduate/philosophy/structure

(And thank you for the insights!)

 

Sorry, that was very stupid. What happened here is that I was running together two categories (the British system is a mess). Apologies, last year I knew all this stuff quite well, but I'm having to make myself remember gradually. Here is how it is:

 

i. Pure taught degrees: these are 'conversion diplomas' and really are worthless for philosophers, but good if you want to do a taught/research Master's. St Andrews and Birkbeck offer this.

 

ii. Mixed degrees in places which have a two-year MPhil as their standard graduate entry programme. These include Birkbeck, UCL and King's. These may be indeed quite useful for someone who wants to apply to the US. However, they're not advisable if you want to do a PhD in the place where it's offered. You can in theory apply to the place for a three-year PhD and do other weird things, like request to go into the dissertation stage of the MPhil. But none of this will be encouraged unless you're really really good, since the standard route is two-year MPhil and two-year PhD, and the idea is that the best students would have got into the MPhil since the beginning.

 

Also, I know of cases where people with this sort of MA haven't been admitted to three-year PhDs. Spefically, someone who had an offer to do a PhD in Cambridge but then when the admissions committee realised they only had the King's MA they were told they had to do an extra year at King's and get the MPhil! (or something like that, the point is that they admitted them under the condition that they finish the MPhil). Also, I've heard that people doing these courses don't get as much attention as the people doing the MPhil.

 

In my opinion, therefore, it's much better to get an MA from places like Leeds or Sheffield even if they're not as prestigious as UCL, Birkbeck and King's because in that case you'll be taking the standard course for PhD entry, since those places have three-year PhDs. Still, I'm not sure if an MA from those places would be enough for Cambridge. The only case I know of someone without a Cambridge Master's who got into their PhD only with a one-year Master's was someone from St. Andrews.

 

Another remark: St Andrews has a two-year MPhil (and a one-year MLitt -- whereas Cambrige has a two-year MLitt and a one-year MPhil. It's a mess!!). But this is different from the UCL, King's and Birkbeck ones. This is because in the case of St Andrews their graduate programme has a one-three year structure, and the MLitt is the standard entry. The two-year MPhil is only for people who've finished the MLitt and want a research Master's but don't necessarily want to go into a PhD. So there are no MPhil students who aren't MLitt students.

Edited March 2, 2015 by verificationist

[notThatEddieVedder]

Verificationist, gnothi, or anyone else: do you happen to know anything about the MSt's offered at Oxford in ancient and physics? Are they adequate replacements for terminal MA programs for students hoping to pursue PhDs in those fields in the US (as I am)? 

[ianfaircloud]

To all the MA students and graduates out there, I was hoping to ask some advice...

 

For someone who has just been fortunate enough to be accepted into a few MA programs and is in the process of determining which one to attend, what advice would you offer to help evaluate the different programs? What questions would you recommend asking the graduate directors and current students?

 

Beyond the logistical issues like funding and location, there are considerations like the professors' AOIs, the levels of student-teacher interaction, and the philosophical community at large (which are things that can be researched before applying, at least to some extent), but I wanted to see if anyone can offer any additional insight based on their experiences from within the programs. What other questions do you think are important to ask? Are there any questions you wished you would have asked, knowing what you know now?

 

I answer under the assumption that you want a PhD in philosophy. I concur with the view that it's important to learn what percent of students go on to PhD programs. Don't be distracted by one solid placement; instead, think of the quantity (or maybe the share) of good placements. This may seem obvious, but I highly recommend that you consider whether a department's placement record reflects a serious weakness in some broader subfield of philosophy (e.g. ethics). From what I can tell, MA programs often have one or two (or maybe three) professors who clearly stand out as the strongest in the program. This is all about fit: make sure that the program's strengths line up with your interests. I don't believe that there's a huge quality difference among the top MA programs, so if the choice is between two such programs, don't be afraid to choose mostly according to fit (or even according to practical considerations, like finances).

 

I think there was another thread on questions to ask. But I take it that you want questions that are particularly important for MA programs. Ask students why they picked the program over other offers (if applicable). Ask students about climate. Ask students about the social atmosphere, because the answer can be revealing. Ask students about the "real" costs of attendance: rent in the area, fees that you may not have heard about, etc. Ask students how much the profs help during admission season. Ask students whether there's one prof who tends to "produce" the most successful applicants to PhD programs. Consider cohort size. Consider how much work you will have to do in order to get the funding. Consider whether that work will distract too much from your application effort. Ask whether you will take classes with undergrads, and ask whether the undergrads are strong academically.

Edited March 2, 2015 by ianfaircloud

[popsteady]

Thanks for everyone's contributions about this! It's really immensely helpful. (And I'm sure it's immensely helpful for all the other people in the same position.) 

[Franzkafka]

Accepted into the M.A. program at Syracuse. I know Syracuse doesn't have a good terminal M.A. program. I wonder is it worthy to attend it. I will reapply to Ph.D. programs in the second year. Anyone know anything concerning its M.A. placement?

[Franzkafka]

http://philosophy.syr.edu/graduate/placement.html

Thank you. But this is a link of the placement of PhD students rather than MA students.

[qualiafreak]

I realized that right after I posted it, sorry!!!

[Franzkafka]

I realized that right after I posted it, sorry!!!

Never mind.