Advice on MA vs PhD programs

[cogsguy]

I wanted to start a new thread to ask for advice on my specific situation, if that's okay. I applied to several MA and PhD philosophy programs without an undergraduate degree in philosophy and ended up getting into a few MAs and just one PhD. The MAs are Simon Fraser University in Canada, Georgia State University (Brains and behavior fellowship), and Tufts. The PhD is WashU PNP.

I'm really interested in philosophy of cognitive science and neuroscience, and I know WUSTL PNP is perfect for these interests. However, I also know that it's not a top 10 or top 20 program, and that if I want to continue my philosophy career doing research in academia, it will be much easier coming out of a top PhD program (I hear there's a lot of prestige bias). I think it might be worth going to an MA program, both in order to get the broad foundation in analytic philosophy that I don't have right now, and in order to have a better chance of getting into a top ranked PhD program afterwards.

For the MAs, SFU (Canadian MA) offers enough funding that I don't need to pay out of pocket; GSU is even better. On the other hand, Tufts is much more expensive. Although they give about 60% tuition remission, I know that tuition as of 2014 was 46.5k. Taking living expenses into account (let's say 10k a year in Boston), I would be paying at least 35k out of pocket. Fortunately, I'm working full time and will have saved up just enough money not to take out student loans, but 35k is still a lot of money. I know that Tufts is considered the best MA program, but do you think the difference (both in terms of placement record and faculty quality) is enough to justify going there over GSU or SFU? 

 

I realize many people may not be familiar with Canadian MA programs like SFU, but I'd appreciate any advice or comments on one or more of these programs. I do know that SFU and GSU have placed several students into top PhD programs, but not with the same consistency as Tufts.

[philstudent1991]

I'll PM you.

[HegelianThomist]

I need help with this as well.

Accepted to a PhD program ranked PGR between 16-20 that I'm not excited about. Also accepted to NIU MA with very likely full funding with stipend. How risky/foolish is it to turn down the PhD and reapply in two years for a higher ranked and better fit program?

[Establishment]

I'm all for PGR prestige, but even I would say it would not make sense to turn down your PhD options for an MA. There's nothing stopping you from attending your PhD programs, and applying out after two years. I have known many people to have done so. In fact, transferring out from a PGR graduate program will probably do a lot better for your application than a terminal MA. Worst case scenario, you don't get in anywhere. But then you're still at a good PhD program, and not with an MA and no where to go.

 

Also, at this point, you should be more concerned with the placement records than PGR prestige. How's placement at your program? How's it specific for people with your interest and with the faculty members you are interested in? If placement is poor, then only then does it make sense to transfer out (and it probably only makes sense if they're just as strong a fit. You don't want to go somewhere with a higher placement if you can't do what you enjoy).

[Duns Eith]

Establishment is right on, I think.

 

Also, you mentioned funding for the MA, but I don't know about your PhD -- is does your offer for the PhD include full funding (i.e. full tuition remission + stipend)? Do you have a TA-ship or a fellowship? If so, I would all the more heartily say, Go for the PhD. If you decide to transfer out, you will at least have made more connections (and letters of recommendation) for future academic pursuits.

[qualiafreak]

Just to put in my two cents, I'm also interested in Philosophy of Mind and Cognitive Science and WUSTL was my number one choice, my dream school. If I got in there I would have accepted on the spot. I think it's absolutely perfect for what I want to do. I think fit (when it's this good) and placement records (which are also good for WUSTL) are more important indicators for success than PGR ranking, but that's just a feeling and I don't have the stats to back it up so take it for what it's worth.

[MattDest]

Establishment's advice seems right on. Also, you ought to consider the specialty rankings for your AOI, especially if you think they will remain constant during grad school. WUSTL's PNP program is definitely one of the stronger cog sci programs, and I imagine that their placement record in that AOI is quite good. 

[sidebysondheim]

I'd definitely follow establishment's advice and go to WashU.

[Page228]

Also: If you're worried about Leiter rankings...

http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2015/02/kvanvig-from-baylor-to-wash-ust-louis.html

His last sentence there should give you some hope for WashU's future in the PGR.

[ianfaircloud]

Here's my attempt to push you very hard in one direction. You should consult someone who disagrees with me, too.

 

But it's generally very risky to turn down an MA for a PhD from a fairly strong program. Each of the programs you have mentioned is very strong for one reason or another. I simply can't imagine turning down one of those for any MA. MA programs take time and cost money (because at the very least, time devoted to an MA is almost certainly lost time in the profession). MA programs don't always make a big difference. As a matter of fact, MA programs don't in the majority of cases result in an amazing, top-PhD offer. I've not met a single person who turned down a T30 PhD for an MA. I do know one person who turned down a PhD program in the PGR 30s for a fully-funded MA at a very strong program, and that person ended up at a T10. I know another who turned down a similarly-ranked program for a top MA and ended up shut-out of philosophy. And I know another person who turned down a very low-ranked PGR PhD for a top MA and ended up shut-out, too. Remember that PhD admissions are unpredictable. You are lucky (there's no question about that) to be admitted to a T25. Luck did play a role. Next time you may be unlucky.

[Duns Eith]

But it's generally very risky to turn down an MA for a PhD from a fairly strong program.

Given the rest of what you said, this sentence suggests the opposite of what you meant. Correct?

If so, I agree

Edited March 8, 2015 by Turretin

[cogsguy]

Thanks for the advice, guys. It sounds like everyone is pushing me towards the PhD.

 

Thanks for the link, Page228. I was not aware of that post - that's great to know.

 

HegelianThomist - may I ask why you're not interested in the top 20 program? Is it outside your specialty?

 

Establishment - That's a good point about transferring from one PhD to another.

 

Now that I've looked at it more carefully, WashU's placement record seems quite good. Looking at PNP (Philosophy-Neuroscience-Philosophy) in particular, which will be my program/specialty, most of the PhD graduates landed tenure track positions. There have only been 12 PNP graduates ever, only 5 of which were in the last decade. Of those 5, two are TT, one is doing a second post doc, and one is "Visiting WUSTL" but only just finished PhD in 2014. And as for the 7 who graduated in 2003 or earlier, they have done extremely well - 5 are now tenured, one didn't seek employment, one was TT for a while and ended up in a computer science PhD. However, this data is hard to rely on because the advisors of those earlier 7 graduates, Bechtel and Prinz, are no longer at WUSTL, and I'm sure the advisor makes a big difference. As unreliable as the data may be, the placement record for PNP in particular looks very good.

 

Also, it might be relevant that at least two very good philosophers did their post docs at WUSTL.

 

Turretin - it's full funding for 6 years.

 

MattDest - I'm almost certain that my AOI will remain constant.

 

Ian - I take your point that luck always plays a role. I certainly can't know for sure that I would get into a PhD program out of an MA. 

[DontFly]

Even though I come from an MA background and benefited immensely from it (to the extent that I wouldn't continue doing philosophy if I didn't go through that MA program, somewhat accidentally), I think Ian has a good point. There's a certain degree of unnecessary risk associated with turning down a good PhD in the hope of a better phd after an MA that you'd have to be willing to bear. I guess it also depends on the degree to which you see Washington U as being unfit. If there really isn't much going on at all that you're interested, I see no reason not to take that risk.

Edit: I misread something. It was HegelianThomist who didn't see a fit with the phd. If there's a fit, I agree with Ian's point.

Edited March 8, 2015 by DontFly

[HegelianThomist]

Thank you for all your responses.  You've definitely given me good stuff to think about.  

There are only a couple of faculty who share my same AOI as their primary interest at the PhD program I was accepted to.  Neither of them teach graduate classes in my AOI, so there aren't many classes offered that seem appealing compared to the ones offered in the MA program.  I'm also concerned about the working conditions and quality of life at the PhD program, but I'll be visiting soon to get some of those questions addressed.

This is a very confusing process, but I feel relieved that I'll be studying somewhere in the fall.  Thank you again for all the help!!

[jailbreak]

Here's my attempt to push you very hard in one direction. You should consult someone who disagrees with me, too.

 

But it's generally very risky to turn down an MA for a PhD from a fairly strong program. Each of the programs you have mentioned is very strong for one reason or another. I simply can't imagine turning down one of those for any MA. MA programs take time and cost money (because at the very least, time devoted to an MA is almost certainly lost time in the profession). MA programs don't always make a big difference. As a matter of fact, MA programs don't in the majority of cases result in an amazing, top-PhD offer. I've not met a single person who turned down a T30 PhD for an MA. I do know one person who turned down a PhD program in the PGR 30s for a fully-funded MA at a very strong program, and that person ended up at a T10. I know another who turned down a similarly-ranked program for a top MA and ended up shut-out of philosophy. And I know another person who turned down a very low-ranked PGR PhD for a top MA and ended up shut-out, too. Remember that PhD admissions are unpredictable. You are lucky (there's no question about that) to be admitted to a T25. Luck did play a role. Next time you may be unlucky.

 

Another option is to apply again in the first or second year of the PhD program. You can list the master's phase of your PhD (your coursework) as a credential when you apply again, you have more options for letter-writers, etc., and if you get shut out, you can still continue on in your home department. There's some advice on it in the comments here: http://leiterreports.typepad.com/blog/2010/08/transferring-phd-programs-twice.html 

[ianfaircloud]

Given the rest of what you said, this sentence suggests the opposite of what you meant. Correct?

If so, I agree

Yes! Thanks!