Advisers not able to help with Grad School questions.

[Disaprovingrabbit]

Hopefully this is not the general idea you are taking from this line of concerns and criticisms.

 

 

 

No that comment was for the one specific poster who it followed, not for the general thread as whole which has been quite helpful and full of good information. 

 

So, here is the thing, as I mentioned just a minute ago, I'm not looking to ever be a faculty member. I don't want to actually teach, I'd really be happy just researching other people's projects or doing some sort of analysis job in government. If you had asked me a year ago I wasn't even considering a Master's degree in either of my fields, let alone a PhD. I'm only in school to get a piece of paper, I chose my majors because they were interesting and I read a lot of stuff in both of them in my free time. What I'm looking for is a qualification for a job, 90% of the jobs I have looked at that involve things I like, lots of sitting, working at a desk, decent pay and low responsibility, all require a university degree. Unfortunately in the 4 years I've been in school it seems it has now become mandatory to have at least a basic Grad level degree as well, and I'm already being told that by the time I finish that, having a PhD will be the minimum.. even though I see plenty of sites around the net saying that there are entirely too many PhD's and that PhD's don't prepare you to do anything except work in Academia. 

 

I'm not sure what other fields I could really do, as an above poster mentioned, even History is now jumping on the big data bandwagon, and I just attended a lecture saying that English is some how doing it too. Personally I don't know what they are expecting to find by doing it, but it's their time to spend however they wish. 

Edited March 10, 2015 by Disaprovingrabbit

[Fianna]

There are some interesting applications in History. I have a quant background from my professional and previous academic lives (my MA is my second degree. I also have an MS in management information systems and have worked in IT for years before doing my grad work), so I use some quant in my own research. I do legal history, and it does help to look for patterns in cases and decisions. I also work a lot with estates and wills, and it helps a lot for looking for patterns in estate sizes and valuations. There are also some really cool mapping and network analysis projects going on now.

 

If you don't want to go in to academia, I'm going to argue against getting the PhD, unless it's something that you'd find personally meaningful. It's a long time, a lot of money and a lot of work and, most importantly, it's 6+ years out of the job market. BAs are definitely required at this point for just about anything that isn't a blue-collar job, but my experience in the job market in IT doesn't bear out the idea that you need an MA to get a job, especially not an early-career job. (So why, you may ask, did I get one... two reasons - I thought I wanted to do my post-grad work in IS/MIS, and realized after 6 months in the program that I did not, first. And second, my undergrad was a BA in History and Lit. There are applications, but once the market tightened, it was a useful screening device that filtered me out when I was competing against people with engineering degrees.)

 

History doesn't yet require quant courses at any of the programs I looked at. I do it because I have the background and because I find that it does generate some interesting lines of research and analysis for my project. The program I'm currently at allows you to use stats for one of your language requirements at both the MA and PhD levels, but it's not a curricula class.

 

I do have some sympathy for you wanting to have control over your education and to get what you want out of it, but my experience is that grad school does't work that way as much as you'd think it does. You have some pretty specific requirements to complete before you can work on research and those are driven by the program requirements, what's being offered and who is teaching that semester. I can't speak for poly sci, but history graduate work is much more a professionalization program geared to put you on the academic job market than it is about history. I don't study much history as a grad student. I study a lot of historiography, theory and methods. It's much less a degree in history than it is a degree in being an historian.

[mb712]

Even an analysis job is going to require quant work or will at least be expected from someone with a graduate degree. I mean, this is political science not philosophy.

An unfocused graduate degree isn't a golden ticket to a job, especially if you're only getting the degree "just cause." If anything, it's going to over-qualify you for jobs you want and attempt to prepare you for a job you don't want.

Have you looked into other kinds of degrees? An MPP maybe?

[Disaprovingrabbit]

 I can't speak for poly sci, but history graduate work is much more a professionalization program geared to put you on the academic job market than it is about history. I don't study much history as a grad student. I study a lot of historiography, theory and methods. It's much less a degree in history than it is a degree in being an historian.

 

That sounds fairly miserable, if I'm being honest.

 

Even an analysis job is going to require quant work or will at least be expected from someone with a graduate degree. I mean, this is political science not philosophy.

An unfocused graduate degree isn't a golden ticket to a job, especially if you're only getting the degree "just cause." If anything, it's going to over-qualify you for jobs you want and attempt to prepare you for a job you don't want.

Have you looked into other kinds of degrees? An MPP maybe?

 

 

I'm not sure what an MPP is, but a thing a lot of people have mentioned to me is to get some sort of degree like an MPA or something but honestly i find those really confusing because they aren't uniformly available at all schools. I'm not really interested in domestic politics either, but I'm not sure if the MPA is a catch all that includes international stuff as well? since I'd probably be just as content working for an NGO or INGO or IO as I would a specific government agency. But again, no one in my department can really advise me on them specifically other than that they exist and I should look into them.  Doing Quant work for a job is different than doing it for research or my education. With that I care deeply about it, or I wouldn't be doing it. For the job I'm just doing it to get paid, whatever they want is what I'll endeavor to give them. 

Edited March 10, 2015 by Disaprovingrabbit

[angellily0330]

Maybe try shooting for an internship at an NGO, IGO, or IO first. You'd get first hand experience and will boost your application if you do decide you want that MPP/MPA/Masters in International whatever.

 

You should try going over to the Government Affairs thread as well. You may find some useful info. 

 

 

Oh and MPP= Masters in Public Policy

Edited March 10, 2015 by angellily0330

[Disaprovingrabbit]

Thanks, I'll have a look at that. 

 

I'm not really sure how to go about getting an internship like that, I was generally given to understand that internships don't pay, which basically makes it impossible for me to get one since I would then have to have a second job in order to pay for living expenses while doing that, and is the reason I haven't really looked into it that much. 

 

 

General notation: Just going to point this out, downvoting my posts isn't going to make me change my mind in the slightest. So why bother?  

Edited March 10, 2015 by Disaprovingrabbit

[angellily0330]

It is much more difficult to get a paid internship, but getting one any way you can may be able to give you a better sense of what you want to do (based on your previous post). I guess I'm still unsure of what you're aiming for. If you don't want to go into academia, then you need work experience. And that usually starts with an internship unless you have mad connections. 

[Disaprovingrabbit]

It is much more difficult to get a paid internship, but getting one any way you can may be able to give you a better sense of what you want to do (based on your previous post). I guess I'm still unsure of what you're aiming for. If you don't want to go into academia, then you need work experience. And that usually starts with an internship unless you have mad connections. 

Which I haven't got, but honestly if it doesn't pay then it's a complete non starter as I have no money to live on while doing unpaid work for someone and I can't work two full time jobs and commute since no job I could probably get during the hours I wouldn't be working at the internship would pay enough for me to live close enough the internship not to have at least an hour commute each way.. I unfortunately don't live in an area of the country that has plentiful internships, at least not in the sort of things I'm interested in, and the closest big city I might be able to find one in is at least 2 hours commute each way. 

Edited March 10, 2015 by Disaprovingrabbit

[angellily0330]

Yeah I totally understand, I turned down an internship for this summer for that exact same reason.

 

I still think you have plenty of opportunities for higher education. Definitely try to find some other professor(s) in the political science department at your school who might be willing to help you figure some stuff out. They've been in the game longer, they know what admissions committees are looking for, and as much as we like to pretend we know what we are talking about here, we are all just applicants ourselves

[victorydance]

ITT I see a lot of excuses and not a lot of action. Everything that is pointed out to you, you seem to reply back with some form of a caveat. 

 

For example:

 

- history has language requirements

- political science and other social sciences require quant training

- internships don't pay

- can't do X and Y because not in an honours program.

 

Sounds like a lot of excuses for your lack of motivation and/or laziness. Seriously. If you want something you have to jump through hoops and get the necessary skills and experience to get there. You are not entitled to anything. 

 

Personally, I have had to jump through a lot of hoops to get where I want to be academically, like learning languages when I am not particularly skilled or quick at them, taking and willing to improve my quant skills to succeed in political science, going to office hours countless times when talking to professors was once very intimidating for me, coming from a very untraditional and unacademic familial background and rising to the top of my respective cohorts on effort, ect. Life isn't all roses my friend, you need to do what you got to do to succeed if your desires are even somewhat ambitious. 

[Disaprovingrabbit]

Look, I'm not trying to be mean or ungrateful here because at least an inkling of what you say is true, I'm not super ambitious because I have a rather mercenary approach to employment. I know I'll never enjoy what I'm doing, so it doesn't really matter what I'm doing. It's just a job. But exactly how am I supposed to combat some of these problems this late in the game? I'm already a second semester senior, next year I'll be a super senior. I haven't got endless hours of undergrad to devote to learning more languages, or taking more classes in the one I've already at least gotten to reading level comprehension in. I haven't got endless hours to take pre-reqs in order to unlock undergrad level quant classes. I have to take certain classes or else I won't graduate before my financial aid runs out. I haven't got endless funding to pay to live on while doing an unpaid internship. And I can't change my school's policy on honors, if my professors don't want to work for free, who can blame them? I wouldn't. 

 

It's extremely unfair of you to lay those things at my feet, but I'll happily own my lack of ambition and apathy towards my job. 

Edited March 10, 2015 by Disaprovingrabbit

[law2phd]

Look, I'm not trying to be mean or ungrateful here because at least an inkling of what you say is true, I'm not super ambitious because I have a rather mercenary approach to employment. I know I'll never enjoy what I'm doing, so it doesn't really matter what I'm doing. It's just a job. But exactly how am I supposed to combat some of these problems this late in the game? I'm already a second semester senior, next year I'll be a super senior. I haven't got endless hours of undergrad to devote to learning more languages, or taking more classes in the one I've already at least gotten to reading level comprehension in. I haven't got endless hours to take pre-reqs in order to unlock undergrad level quant classes. I haven't got endless funding to pay to live on while doing an unpaid internship. And I can't change my school's policy on honors. 

 

It's extremely unfair of you to lay those things at my feet, but I'll happily own my lack of ambition and apathy towards my job. 

 

You don't necessarily need undergraduate quant training, even to study poli sci at a quant heavy program.  As one top professor told me, poli sci isn't economics: you aren't expected to be a mathematician before you start.  You are expected to put in as many extra hours as it takes when they're paying you solely to learn the tools you need to succeed in the field.

 

If you're in undergrad, you started college post-financial meltdown.  You should thus know by now that the options are (a) work at Walmart for minimum wage or ( work countless hours, sacrificing sleep and a social life as necessary, to find a job with even a minimal wage and social status premium over Walmart.  The days of getting paid to do something you actually want to do are over in this country for the 99.x% of us who aren't superstars.  

Edited March 10, 2015 by law2phd

[Disaprovingrabbit]

Yes, but I refuse to work long hours, sacrifice sleep, or social life. I'm not a slave, and I refuse to be treated as such. If that requires drastic measures so be it. 

[victorydance]

I am not trying to disparage you, far from it. But the simple matter is that lots of people jump through these hoops but you seem to be reluctant for whatever reason. For one, countless students do internships while not having a lot of money. You could take a basics statistics class no problem at a community college. And I am sure that you could find someone to do an independent research course or thesis in your faculty if you modify your research interests. You could also finish your undergrad and study languages either independently or abroad if you save up some money and/or get a job. These are just a few examples. 

 

I mean, put it this way...I actually didn't cultivate my three letters of rec until my senior year (and even the last semester at that). I worked as a RA, did an independent research class with a prof, and did an honours thesis all within 4-5 months before I graduated. Senior year is actually the time where these types of opportunities really open up. 

[victorydance]

Yes, but I refuse to work long hours, sacrifice sleep, or social life. I'm not a slave, and I refuse to be treated as such.  

 

Then be satisfied with nothing. That's the bottom line. You think you are entitled to things without making sacrifices or commitment. This isn't how things work in the real world.

[angellily0330]

It's not about being a slave but everyone has to make sacrifices.

 

To quote Parks and Rec: "Sometimes you gotta work a little, so you can ball a lot" (Tom Haverford). 

Edited March 10, 2015 by angellily0330

[Disaprovingrabbit]

Well in that case at least, I've already taken a Stat class, I just took it 3 years ago and already forgot all of it because I never expected to need any of it again.  I'm reluctant to take any more math classes at this point when they could still negatively impact my GPA. Language wise, I really have no interest in any that are considered "Critical" because I haven't got any interest in the regions they are from. I'd honestly rather work for Wal-mart at minimum wage (already done it) than be paid well to work in sub Saharan Africa or Asia or some 3rd world shit hole.  I'm already from the rural Southeast US, I don't want to go to some place worse. I know they exist in theory, but I don't want to risk actually finding out via experience. I'm also significantly older than your average undergrad due to returning to school after working in the public sector for a long period of time. I'm quickly going to be "aged out" of entry level positions. 

[Disaprovingrabbit]

Then be satisfied with nothing. That's the bottom line. You think you are entitled to things without making sacrifices or commitment. This isn't how things work in the real world.

 

That's fine.  I'd rather have nothing than something I'm not happy with. I think I'm entitled to nothing, which is what I'm getting: nothing. The real world exists this way because people like us refuse to change it. But accepting rigid methodologies as fact is what this is all about right? At least that is what I'm getting from this whole conversation. 

 

 

*edited* that should have all been one post, not two. Sorry for double posting. 

Edited March 10, 2015 by Disaprovingrabbit

[rwillh11]

Yes, but I refuse to work long hours, sacrifice sleep, or social life. I'm not a slave, and I refuse to be treated as such. If that requires drastic measures so be it.

If you are not willing to those things-A PhD is not for you. An MA is probably not for you (I did one of those, and you certainly have to work long hours, sacrifice sleep and social live). Grad School is a job....you get paid for it at the PhD level. If you don't want to work long hours, sacrifice sleep or social life, try to find a 40 hr/wk job in retail or something....any job that isn't absolutely mindless takes a ton of work to get to, and will come at the cost of sleep, long hours and social life. Maybe that's not how the work SHOULD work, but it is how the world IS. 

[rwillh11]

I am not trying to disparage you, far from it. But the simple matter is that lots of people jump through these hoops but you seem to be reluctant for whatever reason. For one, countless students do internships while not having a lot of money. You could take a basics statistics class no problem at a community college. 

This. I did my quant training at a community college while I worked after graduating. I picked up a language on the side through self training + being lucky enough to work with a bunch of native speakers. I did some research for free for a professor which continue after graduating. I lived at home after graduating, and worked two (sometimes 3) jobs to save money so I could do a Master's, because I knew without it I wouldn't have a shot at a good program. Among people looking at getting PhDs, that is typical, not exceptional. It involves a lot of financial and personal sacrifice. This is why a lot of the responses in here directed at you have been blunt. You are dismissive of people telling you that you need to put in the effort, and you seem to think you are entitled to further education and funding, rather than need to work for it. There are a lot of people who have gone through the application process in here trying to give you good advice, and your responses have often been dismissive and condescending, which is entirely uncalled for.

First-you need to figure out what you want to do. If you want to do grad school, cultivate relationships with professors. See who would write you a letter. Read up more on the discipline and the current work being done. Check out the methods-"quant" is a broad brush that covers all sorts of techniques. If you really hate math, take a look at other disciplines. Also, if you don't want to work as an academic, I'm not really sure who else hires Poli Sci PhDs...there may be other jobs you could get, but this would not be the most direct route. And most of them would be very quanty (for example, if the government is going to hire a PhD to do analysis, you better believe its going to be number crunching.)

Secondly-You do not have to figure this all at once. Take a year or two working. If you can live at home to save for a bit, do so. Think about what kind of career path would interest you. Don't do grad school for the sake of another degree. You already did undergrad. Learning for the sake of learning is awesome. Most of us love to learn, and are actually in general open to different perspectives and methodologies. But, grad school is a means to an end (a career), not a high minded pursuit of knowledge.

[rwillh11]

 I really have no interest in any that are considered "Critical" because I haven't got any interest in the regions they are from. I'd honestly rather work for Wal-mart at minimum wage (already done it) than be paid well to work in sub Saharan Africa or Asia or some 3rd world shit hole.  I'm already from the rural Southeast US, I don't want to go to some place worse. I know they exist in theory, but I don't want to risk actually finding out via experience. 

Never mind, not sure why I bothered. If this isn't a troll, this is just sad.

[victorydance]

Never mind, not sure why I bothered. If this isn't a troll, this is just sad.

 

Yeah, that was the exact moment I decided to give up as well. 

[qeta]

Based on your disinterest in methods, theories, historiography, etc., I don't think you should be in academia. Academic programs train students for a very specific job and that job involves productively engaging with previous schools of thought and literature and different methodologies and their attendant ontologies/epistemologies. It sounds like you would be happier at a professional program of some kind, or a 9-to-5 office job. And I'd also tone down the rhetoric about Third World "shit holes" if you want to do NGO work.

Edited March 10, 2015 by qeta

[Disaprovingrabbit]

This. I did my quant training at a community college while I worked after graduating. I picked up a language on the side through self training + being lucky enough to work with a bunch of native speakers. I did some research for free for a professor which continue after graduating. I lived at home after graduating, and worked two (sometimes 3) jobs to save money so I could do a Master's, because I knew without it I wouldn't have a shot at a good program. Among people looking at getting PhDs, that is typical, not exceptional. It involves a lot of financial and personal sacrifice. This is why a lot of the responses in here directed at you have been blunt. You are dismissive of people telling you that you need to put in the effort, and you seem to think you are entitled to further education and funding, rather than need to work for it. There are a lot of people who have gone through the application process in here trying to give you good advice, and your responses have often been dismissive and condescending, which is entirely uncalled for.

First-you need to figure out what you want to do. If you want to do grad school, cultivate relationships with professors. See who would write you a letter. Read up more on the discipline and the current work being done. Check out the methods-"quant" is a broad brush that covers all sorts of techniques. If you really hate math, take a look at other disciplines. Also, if you don't want to work as an academic, I'm not really sure who else hires Poli Sci PhDs...there may be other jobs you could get, but this would not be the most direct route. And most of them would be very quanty (for example, if the government is going to hire a PhD to do analysis, you better believe its going to be number crunching.)

Secondly-You do not have to figure this all at once. Take a year or two working. If you can live at home to save for a bit, do so. Think about what kind of career path would interest you. Don't do grad school for the sake of another degree. You already did undergrad. Learning for the sake of learning is awesome. Most of us love to learn, and are actually in general open to different perspectives and methodologies. But, grad school is a means to an end (a career), not a high minded pursuit of knowledge.

 

If it's not a pursuit of knowledge, what the fuck good is it?  I can't live at home and work, there isn't any work at home, that's why I went to university in the first place. I come from a town that was decimated by small minded globalization when all the mills shut down. there isn't fuck all here to work at apart from Walmart which I already quit. I don't have any interest in any career path, I just want to do something to pay the bills. I went back to school because I was told I had to or I had no hope of getting a job. It was a choice between school and a prescription painkiller addiction. I still think I made the right choice, but the more I read here and the more my advisers tell me the more I question that. 

 

Also, if they weren't shit holes they wouldn't need our help to be fixed would they? Still doesn't mean I actually want to go there and get bot-fly or dysentery or something. 

Edited March 10, 2015 by Disaprovingrabbit

[law2phd]

On the bright side, Walmart is raising wages above what my alma mater currently pays STEM graduate workers with degrees from MIT.  So there's that.