Graduate courses as an undergraduate and their roll in admissions

[TenaciousBushLeaper]

Question for my fellow psychology majors, what's your take on graduate courses as an undergrad. Do you think it really helps you when applying to graduate schools? Who has taken graduate courses, and which ones? Were they strictly graduate courses or upper level undergrad/grad mix. To those already attending, or those that have had some experience or have inside knowledge of the admissions process, how heavily are graduate courses weighted or considered? 

I guess I'll start: All the professors I've asked said it "looks good" on the transcript. I've taken two graduate courses which were strictly graduate courses that I had to get special permission to be in. Both were methods based courses for cognitive/behavioral neuroscience(focusing on stats, FSL, AFNI, computational modeling,fMRI).  

Honestly I don't see how it would "look good" or look any better than performing well on any other relevant course. I mean I can't imagine there to be such a significant jump in the development of a student from senior year to the first year in graduate school. 

[Illvm]

It does help, or I should say it is almost assumed. I have taken 7 graduate courses (4 psych 3 stats) during my undergraduate career.

No school requires you to take graduate courses, but it is one of essential part of your undergraduate training if you want to get a deeper understanding of specific research topics, which will lead to develop research interests that you would pursue in your grad school. 

[TenaciousBushLeaper]

It does help, or I should say it is almost assumed. I have taken 7 graduate courses (4 psych 3 stats) during my undergraduate career.

No school requires you to take graduate courses, but it is one of essential part of your undergraduate training if you want to get a deeper understanding of specific research topics, which will lead to develop research interests that you would pursue in your grad school. 

If you've interviewed for grad school admissions already, were these courses brought up during the interview? 

[mb712]

I've been told two wildly different things on this. 1) It looks good plus is attractive because it means the student already has a head start in *insert whatever the grad level class was here* 2) It looks good but can actually be deterring because it means the student has training that may not align with how potential grad advisors do things/want things done.

 

Mine were methods and stats classes, the same classes that the graduate students at my current institution take. 

[Illvm]

If you've interviewed for grad school admissions already, were these courses brought up during the interview? 

 

No I have been interviewed by two schools, but none of the faculty members in both schools brought course-related questions. Like I said it is not required but for your own good; by taking multiple graduate courses you will have advantage of developing stronger research interests and also research ideas that you could potentially carry out when you get into grad school (I wrote my graduate-level course experiences in my SOP). 

[rising_star]

 I mean I can't imagine there to be such a significant jump in the development of a student from senior year to the first year in graduate school. 

This line made me laugh. There should definitely be development between the two. That you can't imagine it is your problem and one you should remedy. To be honest, it's something you might not see until you are a first year grad student and start looking around at undergrads.

 

Probe your professors about why they think it looks good to have taken graduate courses as an undergrad. 

[briarcliff]

I took a couple as an undergrad, but I never thought anything of them. Most professors curved the grades of undergraduate students in the class. They never came up in interviews, and I never mentioned them.

[TenaciousBushLeaper]

This line made me laugh. There should definitely be development between the two. That you can't imagine it is your problem and one you should remedy. To be honest, it's something you might not see until you are a first year grad student and start looking around at undergrads.

 

Probe your professors about why they think it looks good to have taken graduate courses as an undergrad. 

Hmmm, maybe I should have been more specific. I can't imagine such a significant difference between an undergraduate, who is a senior, who is serious and plans to pursue graduate training(towards a PhD) , and a first year grad student. 

[yellowmint]

I agree with BushLeaper, who is Tenacious.

[rising_star]

I disagree having been an ambitious undergrad planning to go to grad school and then, a few months later, being the 1st year student sitting in multiple grad seminars. But hey, it's good to know that you already know it all, TenaciousBushLeaper. Since you do, why even ask the question?

[yellowmint]

Whew this got a little ugly...

[mb712]

Between this and the throwdown happening in the political science forum, wow. People are a little pissy tonight. (The poli sci one is way more entertaining... incase anybody wants to see a total meltdown haha.)

[TenaciousBushLeaper]

I disagree having been an ambitious undergrad planning to go to grad school and then, a few months later, being the 1st year student sitting in multiple grad seminars. But hey, it's good to know that you already know it all, TenaciousBushLeaper. Since you do, why even ask the question?

So I'm going to act like I don't speak *this* language and just say, I'd be very afraid if I knew that I knew it all(whatever that may mean). Ok...anyways, I ask because I've sort of been pressured to take the two graduate courses I've already taken, & even though I'm graduating this May, I'm still being pressured to take more graduate courses (if  I were to decide to stay at my current university as a lab tech).  

Maybe most people looking in on this situation would think I'm an idiot for not  immediately jumping on this opportunity, and maybe my advisor is just trying to look out for me but I'm not entirely sure I'd want that(for reasons other than me not wanting to take on graduate coursework). & You know I'd be nice to get different opinions. 

Also, given your response, I'm not sure what you think the things I've said in my post imply but, just putting it out there, whatever that may be, they don't, they don't at all. 

Edited March 11, 2015 by TenaciousBushLeaper

[yellowmint]

So I'm going to act like I don't speak *this* language and just say, I'd be very afraid if I knew that I knew it all(whatever that may mean). Ok...anyways, I ask because I've sort of been pressured to take the two graduate courses I've already taken, & even though I'm graduating this may, I'm still being pressured to take more graduate courses (if  I were to decide to stay at my current university as a lab tech).  

Maybe most people looking in on this situation would think I'm an idiot for not  immediately jumping on this opportunity, and maybe my advisor is just trying to look out for me but I'm not entirely sure I'd want that(for reasons other than me not wanting to take on graduate coursework). & You know I'd be nice to get different opinions.

I'd be totally the same way. I took courses as an undergrad. I don't think it did me any favors trying to get into grad school. The one exception might be statistics? Anyway, I'm not sure I'd leap at the opportunity to take those grad courses either because I assume you'd have to pay for them yourself?

[yellowmint]

Between this and the throwdown happening in the political science forum, wow. People are a little pissy tonight. (The poli sci one is way more entertaining... incase anybody wants to see a total meltdown haha.)

Oh now I'm excited...will check it out. Thanks! Lol

[TenaciousBushLeaper]

I'd be totally the same way. I took courses as an undergrad. I don't think it did me any favors trying to get into grad school. The one exception might be statistics? Anyway, I'm not sure I'd leap at the opportunity to take those grad courses either because I assume you'd have to pay for them yourself?

About the money thing, no, full time employees(which I would be) of the university get full tuition remission.

[lxwllms]

I would say it depends. I've taken some graduate courses (in programming and bioinformatics) and they've come up in interviews, but only because I'm applying for biopsych/neuro programs, and many of my potential advisors have some aspect of bioinformatics/comp bio that they're considering applying to their projects. I don't know if this helped me get interviews, or anything like that, but it was a talking point.

[yellowmint]

About the money thing, no, full time employees(which I would be) of the university get full tuition remission.

Well that's good. I mean, I'd say one of the most beneficial things is building skills (e.g., learning R, SAS, MPlus; learning multilevel modeling). That doesn't necessarily require courses. I've (and those who i know) built a lot of those skills through hands-on projects. But I don't have a strong opinion on whether the classes would be beneficial or not...

[rising_star]

You asked if there was a significant difference between a college senior and a 1st year grad student. My answer has been, and will be, that yes, there is (or, if there isn't, there should be). College seniors do coursework and go home. They may participate in a research project on the side or work as a RA but that is not the same as being a graduate student who is expected to be working on classes and research for 40-60 hours each week. The rigor is different. The expectations are higher. I took grad/undergrad courses in grad school and the graduate students were always expected to do more work and to do so at a higher level. Regardless of what you may think, it is different because you will be graded differently.

 

What I meant in my post earlier is that you seem insistent that there is no difference. If there really were no difference, then all college seniors would be encouraged or even mandated to take graduate courses before completing their bachelor's. Or, the first year of grad coursework wouldn't exist because it'd be assumed that everyone covered that with the same rigor in college. Neither of those exists currently at most US grad schools, which is why your assumption is faulty. That you insisted upon it even after I said that my experiences as a grad student directly contradicted that and after you have an advisor suggesting otherwise indicated to me a belief that you know better than everyone else. If you want to now say that's not the case, that's fine. But, you posted here to question the advice given to you by an advisor and you posed your question to other applicants, rather than other faculty where it might be better directed. I thought I was being helpful as one of the more senior members of this board who has BTDT in terms of grad school but I can now see that wasn't what you were looking for. It strikes me that perhaps you just wanted people to affirm what you've already decided about the utility of graduate courses, about your advisor's advice, and about the lack of differences between college and the first year of grad school. I wish you the best of luck in whatever path you pursue. I do hope though, that you don't tell people in whatever grad program you go to that there's no difference between being there and what you did as a college senior as people may not take kindly to hearing that.

[constant_wanderer]

I disagree having been an ambitious undergrad planning to go to grad school and then, a few months later, being the 1st year student sitting in multiple grad seminars. But hey, it's good to know that you already know it all, TenaciousBushLeaper. Since you do, why even ask the question?

Wow. A moderator trolling in a thread. The power to delete and reprimand users getting to you, rising_star? Or do you really think that this kind of communication is suddenly acceptable because you are a moderator, or because you have been to graduate school?

 

Do you graduate student folks really think that an admission to graduate school makes you a superior human being, or something? Then don't bother talking to us lowly mortals, and go off to frolic in your ivory-walled gardens where there is no rabble like us challenging your claims to superior intelligence and ability. 

[MyDogHasAPhD]

Between this and the throwdown happening in the political science forum, wow. People are a little pissy tonight. (The poli sci one is way more entertaining... incase anybody wants to see a total meltdown haha.)

Entertainment for daaays...Thanks for fueling my insomnia!

[mb712]

Entertainment for daaays...Thanks for fueling my insomnia!

 

 

Oh now I'm excited...will check it out. Thanks! Lol

 

Hope you guys brought refreshments! Haha. It's a mess over there. I don't really know why somebody down voted your comment, MyDogHasAPhD, but now I'm sad I'm out of up votes for the day.

[yellowmint]

Entertainment for daaays...Thanks for fueling my insomnia!

Please share. Where is Poli Sci WWF Smackdown?

[TenaciousBushLeaper]

You asked if there was a significant difference between a college senior and a 1st year grad student. My answer has been, and will be, that yes, there is (or, if there isn't, there should be). College seniors do coursework and go home. They may participate in a research project on the side or work as a RA but that is not the same as being a graduate student who is expected to be working on classes and research for 40-60 hours each week. The rigor is different. The expectations are higher. I took grad/undergrad courses in grad school and the graduate students were always expected to do more work and to do so at a higher level. Regardless of what you may think, it is different because you will be graded differently.

 

What I meant in my post earlier is that you seem insistent that there is no difference. If there really were no difference, then all college seniors would be encouraged or even mandated to take graduate courses before completing their bachelor's. Or, the first year of grad coursework wouldn't exist because it'd be assumed that everyone covered that with the same rigor in college. Neither of those exists currently at most US grad schools, which is why your assumption is faulty. That you insisted upon it even after I said that my experiences as a grad student directly contradicted that and after your have an advisor suggesting otherwise indicated to me a belief that you know better than everyone else. If you want to now say that's not the case, that's fine. But, you posted here to question the advice given to you by an advisor and you posed your question to other applicants, rather than other faculty where it might be better directed. I thought I was being helpful as one of the more senior members of this board who has BTDT in terms of grad school but I can now see that wasn't what you were looking for. It strikes me that perhaps you just wanted people to affirm what you've already decided about the utility of graduate courses, about your advisor's advice, and about the lack of differences between college and the first year of grad school. I wish you the best of luck in whatever path you pursue. I do hope though, that you don't tell people in whatever grad program you go to that there's no difference between being there and what you did as a college senior as people may not take kindly to hearing that.

I'd rather you not assume my opinions & then outright state them to be mine. 

Maybe the problem is, it seems we have completely different opinions of what *I* mean by an undergraduate senior in this context. What you apparently know I mean and what I know I mean are two completely different things.  

Also right, because there not being a significant difference in the development of a student(let's say intellectually) from senior year in this context and the first year of graduate study for that same person immediately means I'm equating the sum of activities and workload encountered in the first year graduate school to the sum of activities and workload seen in one's senior year.

& Ok, if the work I've done in my graduate courses really isn't graduate work since as you've said they're graded differently no matter what I may think, then why does it matter? 

And for the record, I don't just take classes and go home, I spend at least 20 hours in my lab on a weekly basis, but I'm not going to go into detail about why I'm am or am not this or that. 

[rising_star]

Actually, I think being a faculty member who advises prospective grad students gives me qualifications but I realize those are meaningless. I wasn't posting as an administrator. When I do, I'm pretty clear about that. But I didn't realize that being an administrator meant that I was never allowed to express an opinion on posts. If that is somehow now the case because you, constant_wanderer, have decreed it so, then I'll just go delete about... 3950 of the posts I've made here since 2006. But not really. If you aren't happy with the idea that moderators/administrators also have brains and opinions, you're welcome to request an account deletion and stop participating here. Note that this is not me saying that you should or must do that. I'm just putting it out there as an option if you are discontented. 

 

I wasn't trolling. If you check my first post, you'll see that I offered a genuine comment about how being a college senior and being a 1st year graduate student may seem similar now but may not once one is actually in graduate school. I have yet to see anyone take up that aspect of either my comment or the original post. It has occurred to me that this could be a disciplinary difference and perhaps the first year of psych grad school is like being a college senior. If someone could address that, I'd actually be interested now that I'm mulling it over. It would certainly be helpful to the students I talk to who are concerned that grad school will be much harder than what they've done thus far. If there's concrete evidence that, at least in psychology, taking one grad course in college and taking a full load of grad courses as a 1st year grad student is the same, I'm sure many (both here and who I advise) will be grateful and relieved by that information.

 

To further address the original post, let me add the following. Are the graduate courses you took related to your interest? If so, then taking them helps show the adcom that you have done what you can to prepare yourself for graduate work in the field. Were courses with the same or similar content available at the undergraduate level? If so, then taking those at the graduate level is evidence of your commitment and dedication, as well as your willingness to challenge yourself. My guess is that some of the advanced stats might not have been available at the undergraduate level. If you have that training, that may make your required methods courses easier as a graduate student, which again can look good to a program. They probably aren't going to go "Wow! Ze took XXX as an undergrad! Admit them immediately!" but they are going to consider the training you got as additional preparation that can make you qualified for the program. Taking those courses and having a low GPA might not be enough to get you in. But, having taken them will also make you a better graduate student once you are in a program. If you continue to take grad courses while working as a lab tech, you may be able to transfer 6-9 credits into whatever graduate program you ultimately enroll in, which can also help you out in terms of time and being able to take what you want and need to take once in a program.