The Graduate School Ponzi Scheme

[VirtualMessage]

[Dr. Old Bill]

I'm just not sure what you expect to come out of this, VM. There have been some valid observations in this thread, and there is a legitimate issue with the structure of grad school, but bumping this thread up ad nauseam doesn't make people more aware of the issue. Internet forums -- even ones dedicated to grad school issues -- are typically sub-standard places for organizing widespread rebellions. Not to be twee, but rather than creating an actionable call to arms, you're sending out nothing more substantial than virtual messages.

 

Edited September 14, 2015 by Wyatt's Terps

[Ramus]

I probably found value in and agreed with VM's remarks for longer than just about anyone else, but I'm with WT, uncertain now about the value of continually rehashing this.

Moreover, I worry that going about your campaign in this way, VM, makes it easier for others to dismiss the very thing you're trying to get across. For me, you're beginning to come across as a cranky old man, scaring people away from your porch (and others have arrived at this well before me). You've become a caricature. And, again, I'm someone who agrees with much of what you've said.

It might be time to ask whether you're doing more harm to your cause than good. 

[VirtualMessage]

 Hello! I am the cute little lamb Virtual Message, a caricature. And like all of the other young scholar lambs, I am chewing my cud until it's time for my adjunct slaughter. 

[bhr]

If last year's MLA job list was "carnage," then what should we call it this year? I vote for "unreal." Because you'd think it didn't exist based on the silence from all quarters of the professoriate. Guess how many jobs are currently listed in English studies for all areas, including many Creative Writing and Rhet/Comp positions?

146

#Nofutureforscholarship, #Radicalindifference, #Ivegotmine, #Thegradstudentskeeponcummin, #Holyexception, #Adjunctdestiny, #Hopeychangeyacademe

I'm not sure why I'm engaging with this person, but it's completely idiotic (as most of your claims are) to make claims about the job list the week after it opens. Here's an article on just this subject last year that says that yes, a majority off jobs post early, this is hardly a bad sign yet. https://chroniclevitae.com/news/708-are-more-mla-faculty-jobs-on-the-way (btw, this year's is ahead of last's on the same date).

Also, I'm hearing from many people that the R/C,TC market is expected to be decently robust this year.

 

I don't think anyone on this site really is clueless about the realities of the situation, we just don't need some know-it-all whiner to bring it up OVER and OVER again.

 

[VirtualMessage]

I'm not sure why I'm engaging with this person, but it's completely idiotic (as most of your claims are) to make claims about the job list the week after it opens. Here's an article on just this subject last year that says that yes, a majority off jobs post early, this is hardly a bad sign yet. https://chroniclevitae.com/news/708-are-more-mla-faculty-jobs-on-the-way (btw, this year's is ahead of last's on the same date).

Also, I'm hearing from many people that the R/C,TC market is expected to be decently robust this year.

 

I don't think anyone on this site really is clueless about the realities of the situation, we just don't need some know-it-all whiner to bring it up OVER and OVER again.

 

Your link is for a piece that was published in September of last year, and the resounding answer to its question was that many more jobs never arrived. I am fascinated by the collective delusion present on this web forum! The profession you want to join is in the middle of an unprecedented labor crisis, and you're looking to an article last year in order to suggest that we should be hopeful this year when we know that last year the great onslaught of jobs never materialized? I proudly accept being an idiot lamb if it means finding this line of thought absurd. Here are the basics: tenure is being destroyed, the vast majority of jobs are contingent, and this trajectory will continue. Battered and shattered and underenrolled  disciplines of knowledge will be left in the wake of this wrecking crew with little hope of prosperity in the future; scarce resources will be directed to "Big Data and Humanities Computing" (a current job listing at UC Davis) with the hope of one day reviving the humanists whose brains have been cryogenically frozen to unthaw on some future day and model critical thought for an academy that has lost it. 

 I will be an excellent lamb if I can help one person think twice about entering this profession before they give up on other viable career options. Actually, you should eat me. Because lurkers on here have contacted me in private to tell me that they're deeply concerned about going into a doctoral program when slaughter awaits--they rather eat than be eaten. You should respect their preference. So, if it takes discussing this OVER and OVER and OVER again to bring the realities of this desperate situation to other excellent sheep, I'm happy to keep whining and jumping over fences throughout the night. 

[Dr. Old Bill]

 

 I will be an excellent lamb if I can help one person think twice about entering this profession before they give up on other viable career options.

Okay, this is the biggest issue I take with the anti-grad-school line of thinking. There is no truth to the assumption that getting an M.A. or a Ph.D. in English (or any of the Liberal Arts or Humanities) makes you somehow unable to go down another career path if the elusive, pie-in-the-sky, castle-in-the-air tenure track job at a R1 institution doesn't pan out. First of all, I don't think that many of us here cling to the notion of guaranteed tenure anymore. But even if one does spend a few years on the job market, hoping in vain for that eventuality, it doesn't mean that with the right perspective (i.e. willingness to look beyond academia, and willingness to adapt one's considerable skillset alt-ac environments) one will inevitably wind up as an "unemployed bum" or an eternal adjunct barely making a livable wage.

The situation does suck, but some of the doomsaying about it is downright hyperbolic.

[dr. t]

Edited September 15, 2015 by telkanuru

[Romanista]

The conflict that many in this forum have with VirtualMessage is basically that we don't get it. We don't know shit.

VirtualMessage can correct me if I'm wrong, but he or she graduated with a PhD and is now an adjunct/NTT faculty/working outside of academia. VM was probably a terrific graduate student. VM probably spent at least 10 years in school (from BA to PhD) being fawned over by his or her professors. Very likely these same professors either glossed over the increasingly nonexistent academic job market or (worse) they simply never discussed it, because why would they given that they have their tenure security already in hand, and given that they hold no accountability over whether their graduate students ever get a TT job. 

Now VM is bitter about it and I can't blame VM for being bitter about it.

And I'm big enough to admit that I cannot empathize with the sheer weight of that disappointment. I won't be able to do that until and unless I find myself in the same situation (hopefully not). And I would wager that this is true of all of us. It's easy to think like Wyatt's Terps and say well, just get out of academia if TT doesn't work out. This is easy to say. This is much harder to do. I bet that a lot of adjuncts thought (while they were in grad school) that they would get out when it became clear that TT wasn't going to happen. Then they fell in love with research and teaching and now they are trapped there. I think it's disingenuous to just think that we can put ourselves in VM's shoes. We cannot. 

You may have noticed that ComeBackZinc hasn't posted recently. I know who he is (not personally but he's very active in the R/C field) and I'd wager that his disappointment at not getting a TT position has something to do with why he hasn't been around recently. The point is, you can't theorize this shit until it happens to you, and calling VM a whiner just confirms that.

VM is here to remind us that this is a difficult path, and if you feel uncomfortable about that then I don't know how you will deal with the job market once you get your PhD.

All this being said, the problem with VM's pessimism is that you can't get any work done if you stress too much. I've spent weekends reading about how academia is gradually destroying itself and in that period I only made myself worry even more. But perhaps more importantly, I got no work done during those CHE binges. And I'm not getting any work done by posting this, because my research isn't about the shrinking of the tenured professoriate.

 

[1Q84]

 

Now VM is bitter about it and I can't blame VM for being bitter about it.

And I'm big enough to admit that I cannot empathize with the sheer weight of that disappointment. I won't be able to do that until and unless I find myself in the same situation (hopefully not). And I would wager that this is true of all of us. It's easy to think like Wyatt's Terps and say well, just get out of academia if TT doesn't work out. This is easy to say. This is much harder to do. I bet that a lot of adjuncts thought (while they were in grad school) that they would get out when it became clear that TT wasn't going to happen. Then they fell in love with research and teaching and now they are trapped there. I think it's disingenuous to just think that we can put ourselves in VM's shoes. We cannot. 

The entire point that you and Lambchops over here seem to be missing is that no one is slamming him for being disappointed, angry, or disillusioned at the burning rubble that is the academic job market.

We merely question what purpose he thinks he's serving by reviving this thread every once in a while with snide, sarcastic comments about how we're all blind idiots for continuing our walk into the meat grinder. What is the intended effect? To raise awareness? Well, the 11 pages of this thread attest to the fact that most of us are already aware of the issues. That we'll all immediately drop out of our programs in protest against the injustices of academic corporatization? Not likely. That we'll sympathize with him? Surely most of us do already. So what is the point of lacerating the people on this forum again with snide hashtags about the MLA job hunt? There are other horses in this world to beat.

Really, and this has been re-stated ad nauseam, no one is saying that they know exactly how VM feels or how he should feel since obviously few of us are on the job market. Berating and excoriating first year Ph.D. students is simply not going to accomplish whatever it is he wants to accomplish. This fact is rather clear to most of us on TGC, so the suggestion follows that he should go and use his time and energy to effect change (or whatever it is he hopes to do... it's still not exactly clear to me) by some other means.

tl;dr

[Romanista]

We merely question what purpose he thinks he's serving by reviving this thread every once in a while with snide, sarcastic comments about how we're all blind idiots for continuing our walk into the meat grinder. What is the intended effect? To raise awareness? Well, the 11 pages of this thread attest to the fact that most of us are already aware of the issues. That we'll all immediately drop out of our programs in protest against the injustices of academic corporatization? Not likely. That we'll sympathize with him? Surely most of us do already. So what is the point of lacerating the people on this forum again with snide hashtags about the MLA job hunt? There are other horses in this world to beat.

 

Um...he basically just told us what his intention was in the last post. His aim is to dissuade the person who wants to get a PhD but who is torn between that decision and just getting a regular job. VM lets that prospective student know what he is getting himself into, because very often English department websites downplay the lack of jobs. 

Just because you and I have already decided to give academia a go doesn't mean that there's no purpose to why VM visits this forum. 

[Romanista]

Also, in a way VM is doing us all a favor. I remember someone commenting on this anti law school blog about how every post directly or indirectly causes someone to reconsider enrolling in law school. VirtualMessage is basically doing the same thing; limiting the number of applicants for PhD programs and TT jobs. Yeah this is just one poster on one forum but still. 

[1Q84]

Um...he basically just told us what his intention was in the last post. His aim is to dissuade the person who wants to get a PhD but who is torn between that decision and just getting a regular job. VM lets that prospective student know what he is getting himself into, because very often English department websites downplay the lack of jobs. 

Just because you and I have already decided to give academia a go doesn't mean that there's no purpose to why VM visits this forum. 

I don't think anyone on TGC has denied the lack of academic jobs. In fact, most people are quite intent on making the realities of the market transparent to any and all who visit here. What happened in previous threads is that rather than communally self-flagellating, folks wanted to discuss alt-ac options or, god forbid, talk about changing the system in some small way. We're just not all deadset on insisting that "entering a Ph.D. program = instant poverty and a humiliating death." 

If VM's sole purpose here is to ostentatiously terrify people into staying away from academia, I'm not really sure what the point in entertaining that is. 

[rising_star]

I don't think anyone on TGC has denied the lack of academic jobs. In fact, most people are quite intent on making the realities of the market transparent to any and all who visit here. What happened in previous threads is that rather than communally self-flagellating, folks wanted to discuss alt-ac options or, god forbid, talk about changing the system in some small way. We're just not all deadset on insisting that "entering a Ph.D. program = instant poverty and a humiliating death." 

If VM's sole purpose here is to ostentatiously terrify people into staying away from academia, I'm not really sure what the point in entertaining that is. 

I'll just interject briefly to say that this site has MANY more lurkers than it has active posters, sometimes numbering in the hundreds online at the same time. So just because everyone posting acknowledges the lack of academic jobs doesn't mean this thread isn't informative to others. There may very well be people who read TGC discussions and decide maybe graduate school isn't for them (because of the job market, the length to degree, how hard it is to get into a good program, fear their GPA isn't competitive, etc.) without ever posting or even creating an account. 

[BooksCoffeeBeards]

I'll just interject briefly to say that this site has MANY more lurkers than it has active posters, sometimes numbering in the hundreds online at the same time. So just because everyone posting acknowledges the lack of academic jobs doesn't mean this thread isn't informative to others. There may very well be people who read TGC discussions and decide maybe graduate school isn't for them (because of the job market, the length to degree, how hard it is to get into a good program, fear their GPA isn't competitive, etc.) without ever posting or even creating an account. 

I do feel that the intended audience for this is not the lurkers, though. I mean, I can see the value in threads like this (that aren't bumped 500 times because who doesn't like revisiting a dead horse just one more time?), but the value of this particular one seems...

worn out.

[1Q84]

I'll just interject briefly to say that this site has MANY more lurkers than it has active posters, sometimes numbering in the hundreds online at the same time. So just because everyone posting acknowledges the lack of academic jobs doesn't mean this thread isn't informative to others. There may very well be people who read TGC discussions and decide maybe graduate school isn't for them (because of the job market, the length to degree, how hard it is to get into a good program, fear their GPA isn't competitive, etc.) without ever posting or even creating an account. 

No, I know that. I'm saying that all that crucial work of informing posters and lurkers has been going on in numerous threads and that they've all been quite open and transparent about the problems in academia. It's not only VM delivering the good word. 

I would challenge anyone here to find a thread where any poster was willfully misrepresenting the state of the field. In fact, the few posters who have come in thinking that academia is still sunshine and lollipops have been smacked down (quite rudely and harshly, I might add.)

That's all to say that I really take exception to the way VM is characterizing the tone of the discussions taking place in this specific forum. No one here has their head in the sand like he claims. Simply because we do not wish to partake in the doomsaying of academia does not mean we're not conscious and very worried about the problems ahead. We just want to talk about it realistically rather than apocalyptically.

Edited September 15, 2015 by 1Q84

[rising_star]

No one here has their head in the sand like he claims. Simply because we do not wish to partake in the doomsaying of academia does not mean we're not conscious and very worried about the problems ahead. We just want to talk about it realistically rather than apocalyptically.

My experience in trying to start such conversations here and elsewhere is that people have vastly different ideas of what "realistically" is. My guess is that VM thinks that their way is the way to have a realistic conversation. There have been other attempts to be realistic without being apocalyptic here but they generally contain very few suggestions of what people would, could, or should actually do if/when they finish their PhD and are unable to find the tenure-track job they desire. This isn't to say that VM's approach is the best one, just to say that many people here have vehemently argued with those that have been on the market that their perspectives on the market are skewed/flawed/unrealistic as if they know better than those that have just gone through it. So if that's the basis of a realistic conversation, then I'd say that whatever is happening probably isn't actually realistic. 

 

Also, 1Q84 and BooksCoffeeBeards, bumping this thread may in fact bring it to the attention of lurkers but putting it at the top of the forum where newcomers will see it first rather than a "What are my chances?" or "What schools should I apply to?" type post, rather than a page or two back. 

[Guest]

I've been lurking here for a while ... and I just want to point out that "Ponzi scheme" is completely misused here. That's been driving me crazy.

That's all.

[rococo_realism]

my_muse, I believe that ponzi scheme, here, is merely supposed to be a synonym for "scam." Though, a ponzi scheme isn't exactly analogous to what's being discussed, of course.

[Guest]

Yes, I gathered that. But a Ponzi scheme is a very particular type of scam, for those of us old enough to remember Madoff, and one that provides absolutely nothing useful in the way of an analogy to the situation Virtual Message is discussing here. 

[TakeruK]

I do think Ponzi scheme is a little bit more appropriate than simply a synonym for "scam" but it's not a perfect analogy.

The way I see it, a Ponzi scheme is a scam where you lure future investors into investing their money with you and then uses this new money to pay off old investors (keeping a cut for themselves of course). However, this does not actually generate any new income so while the old investors may be under the impression that they are investing into something that is making good money, the whole scheme is unsustainable and eventually they will have no more new investors and then no one will get any more money! In essence, the scheme works by luring in future investors by false pretenses of rewards that don't exist.

The analogy to academia is that the current professors need graduate students and postdoc to do research work for them. At least in my field, it's pretty clear that the majority of the research "engine" is work by grad students and postdocs. So, there is a lot of recruitment and not-quite-promises of a future career in academia if you go to grad school, or if you do this postdoc, or if you adjunct here or there. But like a Ponzi scheme, the whole situation is unsustainable--there are far more early career researchers than permanent positions. I think when institutions create postdoc positions that they know will not lead to TT or other permanent positions and when they recruit graduate students without telling them the truth that most of them will not get TT positions, that is where the professors and departments act like a Ponzi scheme. 

But otherwise I do agree that it's not a perfect analogy. For example, I can't think of the analogous equivalent of the part where they "pay out old investors with money from new investors".

But back to the topic. Also, I just want to say this is me writing as a community member, not as a moderator. Why are we going around and trying to "police" each other's opinions and thoughts. It's not like VM is advocating that we do unethical or immoral things. I don't understand why we (as other community members) need to tell VM to stop posting their opinion and pass judgement or criticize VM's choice to advocate for their cause in this way. I think it's one thing to disagree and post counterpoints when VM posts their points (as was done at the beginning of the thread). But now, we are no longer discussing the content but instead, the way it is presented. It's not like VM's posts are speaking on all of our behalf, so I don't think we have any prerogative to tell VM how to advance their cause or how to write their posts! Just my two cents.

[Ramus]

 

I think it's one thing to disagree and post counterpoints when VM posts their points (as was done at the beginning of the thread). But now, we are no longer discussing the content but instead, the way it is presented. It's not like VM's posts are speaking on all of our behalf, so I don't think we have any prerogative to tell VM how to advance their cause or how to write their posts! Just my two cents.

I do not understand how you can dismiss one's means of conveying content as a matter of secondary importance. Just my two cents. 

#Communication101

[1Q84]

Also, 1Q84 and BooksCoffeeBeards, bumping this thread may in fact bring it to the attention of lurkers but putting it at the top of the forum where newcomers will see it first rather than a "What are my chances?" or "What schools should I apply to?" type post, rather than a page or two back. 

In that case, I sincerely support pinning this thread. Newbies will be drawn to it as necessary reading and those who have had enough of VM's harping will find it much easier to ignore because it's not constantly being bumped.

[TakeruK]

I do not understand how you can dismiss one's means of conveying content as a matter of secondary importance. Just my two cents. 

#Communication101

I agree that we should place as much thought and importance in the way we convey a message as the content of the message itself.

What I am responding to is the fact that other people are telling another person how to convey the message. VM is an independent entity and VM did not seem to come here to ask for our advice on how they should go about their cause. 

I mean, if we are planning to organize as a group to work together and spread a particular message, then I agree that it makes complete sense for us to discuss the way we, as a group, want to author our message. But this is not what's happening. Why are people trying to edit another person's thoughts and actions (to be specific, I'm referring to the posts that imply that VM's ideas have a lot of support but maybe VM should phrase it differently in order to gain actual supporters).

That is, I don't understand why one cannot disagree with VM's communication style but at the same time, respect their agency and individuality by not providing unsolicited advice about the way they say what they want to say. Again, while I would also not choose to use VM's style myself, since VM is not speaking on my behalf and since VM is not advocating for unethical or immoral actions that would negatively impact our community (in academia, not just GradCafe), I am happy to see VM's posts as one of the many voices and opinions that exist.

[Dr. Old Bill]

I liken this thread to a doomsayer waving around a "The End is Nigh" sign. The end may, in fact, BE nigh, but it doesn't make the doomsayer any less annoying.