Recommendation Email- Advice?

[Generic_Applicant]

So hopefully someone will read this story and give me a bit of advice. 

I work in research in a department that does the kind of research my POI at ryerson does. In fact, he was a post doc with my PI and department head (both of them work together on many projects). I have good contact with both of them as well. 

Last year, I got an interview with this POI. He was really open to talking to me even before the application deadline and was open to meet. Was great at the interview but didn't offer me the spot because there were apparently more competitive applicants. 

Kept in touch with him all year. Almost started to volunteer in his lab (didn't work out because project didn't pick up). Emailed him again recently and he congratulated me on my research position and said he'd be happy to meet with me this term again. 

 

Now- I want my department head to email this POI and recommend me to the program. My PI will be completing one of the references for me but I want a bit of extra convincing. Last year my PI sent a recommendation email on top of the reference. I want the department head to send that email this time and maybe it'll sway him a bit. Question is- what's a good time to have this email sent out? 

I know its not the conventional way of doing things but networking is really what has gotten me where I am today and so I don't want to not try this again. Might work since we could even all collaborate and do my dissertation where I work. My PI wants to keep me. 

So any thoughts? I appreciate your time in replying and helping me think this through!! 

 

Cheers

[rising_star]

It's not conventional and it can either go well or backfire. Since you have no evidence that taking this approach helped you before, why try it again? If you have a rec letter from that person, then the POI knows they can pick up the phone and call that person to learn more about you and your application. It definitely happens, so I'm not sure why you'd want an email in addition to the recommendation. For all you know, the POI has some sort of unfavorable personal relationship with this recommender and is disinclined to do what s/he says or wants. In that case, the extra email could actually hurt your candidacy.

[TakeruK]

You are essentially asking your department head to "put in a good word for you" and that's kind of only helpful when the department head has some kind of good relationship (maybe they used to be colleagues, collaborators, etc.) with the POI already. As rising_star said, if the relationship is bad (or even unknown) then this kind of recommendation is not useful.

[lewin]

Good advisors will do this without being asked if they think it will help you. My intuition is that suggesting it yourself seems pushy.

Edited September 22, 2015 by lewin

[Generic_Applicant]

Thanks guys. They have a good relationship and they've collaborated before. He worked with them during his post doc there. 

He is a very nice guy and I think it wouldn't hurt, but I could be wrong. Maybe I could set up a meeting with the department head and see? The head doesn't know me too well but he is a great mentor and has done a lot to help me move forward in my career already. 

[rising_star]

Maybe I could set up a meeting with the department head and see? The head doesn't know me too well but he is a great mentor and has done a lot to help me move forward in my career already. 

This, to me, suggests that this is a bad idea. Why would you want someone that doesn't know you very well calling up someone on your behalf? If he really want to call, he'll do it on his own without you suggesting/urging him to do so.

[Generic_Applicant]

Okay so the general consensus is that's its a bad idea lol maybe I probably shouldn't do it then!

Thanks guys! I guess I was just getting carried away with wanting more recommendations. But I appreciate the input!

Edited September 22, 2015 by Syedahum

[lewin]

Also, if your POI knows the dept head reasonably well, I think there's a 90% chance they'll have a phone conversation anyway as soon as the POI sees that he's one of your referees--the call might just originate with the POI.

[Generic_Applicant]

Hmm, I dont think this happened last year with my current PI. The department head is obviously a bigger name so I was thinking that having his recommendation may also help a bit more. But maybe that's trying too hard.

I'll leave it to the POI maybe

[TakeruK]

I agree with everyone that if you have to ask, usually it's a bad idea and if you don't even know the department head that well, it is definitely a bad idea!

An example of when it would work well is if you are applying to work with a professor that used to be the advisor of a postdoc that you know well in your current department, and you tell the postdoc this and the postdoc says "hey, I'll let prof x know you're applying!". It should be something that naturally gets offered by the other person once they know that you are applying to someone they have a connection with.

[Generic_Applicant]

Ah, thanks! I apparently was not aware of that portion- I thought we would have to ask! Hmm, in that case, maybe I'll just let the department head know that I will be applying to his ex-postdoc and see what comes up?

[TakeruK]

Ah, thanks! I apparently was not aware of that portion- I thought we would have to ask! Hmm, in that case, maybe I'll just let the department head know that I will be applying to his ex-postdoc and see what comes up?

Like most human interactions, this really depends on the relationship that you have with the other person. I would think that for most people, if you are talking to them when they are not otherwise distracted or busy, if you mention that you are applying to their old postdoc place and they like you, then they will automatically offer to "put in a good word" if they felt they could be helpful. Sometimes asking them to do so would put them in an uncomfortable situation, especially if they don't really know you or actually do not think they can say very many positive things.

However, the above things I wrote are all generalizations. Sometimes you are working with someone that would not take the hint that and you have to ask directly. Or sometimes, people are just unfair and they would not go to bat for you unless you asked directly (for one reason or another) even though they might do the same for their other students. 

So, even though I did say that, in general, it's not a good idea if you have to ask, this assumes that we live in an ideal world where everything is fair. So, there is a little bit of hesitation when I give this advice, because trusting the system will work out for you if you are a good candidate is a privileged position to take. In some cases, I agree with you and that sometimes we do have to take matters into our own hands and push people to support us. But whether or not this applies to you in this case is something for you to decide! I'm not sure how much support you can get if you don't know the department head very well though. 

[Generic_Applicant]

Like most human interactions, this really depends on the relationship that you have with the other person. I would think that for most people, if you are talking to them when they are not otherwise distracted or busy, if you mention that you are applying to their old postdoc place and they like you, then they will automatically offer to "put in a good word" if they felt they could be helpful. Sometimes asking them to do so would put them in an uncomfortable situation, especially if they don't really know you or actually do not think they can say very many positive things.

However, the above things I wrote are all generalizations. Sometimes you are working with someone that would not take the hint that and you have to ask directly. Or sometimes, people are just unfair and they would not go to bat for you unless you asked directly (for one reason or another) even though they might do the same for their other students. 

So, even though I did say that, in general, it's not a good idea if you have to ask, this assumes that we live in an ideal world where everything is fair. So, there is a little bit of hesitation when I give this advice, because trusting the system will work out for you if you are a good candidate is a privileged position to take. In some cases, I agree with you and that sometimes we do have to take matters into our own hands and push people to support us. But whether or not this applies to you in this case is something for you to decide! I'm not sure how much support you can get if you don't know the department head very well though. 

I agree. The only reason I asked my current PI to do it last year is because he tends to leave everything to me. He had me complete all my references and he signed it off last year (which I know is how it was done in the past but I rarely come across this now). This time, I will insist that he send it himself because he likes my work and would likely do a better job at talking me up than with me using my imagination of what he must feel about my work. 

With regards to the department head, I think he is a very supportive person and even though he doesn't know me too well, he has always pushed for me to have better opportunities, so it is worth a shot there. 

Thanks so much for your fair eval of this situation!

[Oshawott]

People have already said what needed to be said regarding trying to get the Dept Head to contact the POI for you but there's something else I want to address:

From your posts, it sounds like you're trying to get the department head's recommendation because of his stature in the field, despite not knowing you well. Yes, he is supportive, but from my experience, most researchers are. I've even seen a researcher reject (in a sense) a request to write a LOR in a supportive way, by saying that while she *would* write it, the student would get a stronger letter from someone they've worked with closely (the student only knew her from class).

I've been told by multiple people that if you are unsure what kind of letter a person will write, ask them if they could write you a strong letter. Most people would feel awkward outright saying no, but if you specify what kind of letter you're looking for, it gives them a chance to say "yes" but explain that a letter coming from them wouldn't be the best. A big name on an LOR doesn't matter if they can't really say anything about you.

Honestly, if he says he can write a strong recommendation and he and your POI are close, they'll probably talk anyway. We like to pretend academia is all merit-based, but there *is* a bit of networking involved in a sense that humans are social creatures.

 

[hopefulclinicalpsych]

I have a similar situation going on.  

I'm applying to clinical programs this round and the PI at my DREAM school is really good friends with my boss right now.  My boss knows that this program is my dream one, too.  He told me that they talk and that it wouldn't be uncommon for the PI to pick up the phone and call my boss and ask him about my application once he gets it. I wouldn't pressure the person you're currently working under to email your potential PI.  If they're close enough, they'll talk about it.  

[Generic_Applicant]

I agree now. Thanks everyone for your input!