Potential Advisor Issue Advice

[MaytheSchwartzBeWithYou]

Hi all, 

I'm having an issue deciding whether to apply to a certain school, and though I probably already know the answer, I thought I'd reach out here and get other thoughts. I've been getting a vibe from a potential advisor at one of my prospective doctoral programs - namely, that he is full of himself and  is likely difficult to work with. He is an acquaintance of mine, though I use the term loosely, as he couldn't be bothered to speak to me, or most other people, really, at a panel in which we both participated (I was a master's student at the time).  However, I really admire his work and it fits well with my research direction. Additionally, I love the structure and philosophy of the department, and there is at least one other person who could potentially advise me.

Long story short, I had a phone conversation with this person about a month ago, in which it seemed he hadn't bothered to read the materials he had asked me to send him, after he had twice flaked on the call entirely (he told me he was extremely busy). He wasn't rude on the call, and in fact answered all of my questions, but it was not at all what I anticipated the conversation to be. This and my other past experience with him have made me seriously question whether to apply to this school, especially since my understanding of application etiquette is that I can't just contact another faculty member if I'm not feeling the first person I contacted.  While I want to be understanding about how busy professors are and don't want to make too many assumptions, I do NOT want to spend six to ten years of my life tethered to an advisor with whom I personally clash, regardless of how I feel about their scholarship. On the other hand, I'm torn as to whether that's enough for me to turn town a possible opportunity to study with someone who is contributing great work to my field.

I haven't yet contacted the other person I could work with out of respect for this guy, and the application for this school is due VERY soon (I've really been hesitating to drop the school). Do you have any advice as to whether I should apply anyway, and if/how I might go about indicating I'd like to work with someone OTHER than the person I contacted?

Thanks in advance!

[condivi]

Who told you you could only contact one person? Not true at all! In fact, you should indicate in your personal statement more than one faculty members you'd like to work with. Your interest will change during coursework and you'll build relationship with different faculty members. Now is the time to avoid getting tethered to one faculty member. You should never be attached to someone right away, but some faculty members feel differently, so it's a good idea now to indicate that you'd like to work with both profs. 

[Gundohinus]

Absolutely, you should get in touch with the second person! You should not go into ANY grad program with the thought of tethering yourself to one single advisor for the whole time, and it is no sign of disrespect at all to express interest in someone else on the faculty. Just go to Person 2, introduce yourself, tell them that you've already had occasion to talk with Person 1, but that you also have reason to be very interested in Person 2's work etc. etc. Person 2 will doubtless be flattered, and Person 1 will probably not even know the difference.

[Joan Callamezzo]

Heh. To be honest this sounds like typical senior faculty behavior. A lot of amazing profs get to where they are by being greedy with their time and generally not paying attention to anything/one they can get away with ignoring. Sure there are some amazing, hands-on professors who genuinely love working with students, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. The fact that he would even agree to email you back - let alone *speak* to you - is actually a pretty good sign. I'm not sure what your undergrad background was like, but a lot of students (myself included) are given a rude awakening when they realize that PhD advisors are not like liberal arts school advisors. A lot of them just really cannot and will not be bothered. And you will learn that it actually isn't bad, and you'll become more independent and grateful of the attention that you do receive from your advisor. I can barely get my advisor to respond to my emails, but I wouldn't trade him for the world, because he is an incredible scholar and always comes through for me when I need him. If you want to work with a big name professor you are more than likely going to have to put up with a big ego. 

[TakeruK]

I disagree with Joan Callamezzo, even though this might be "typical", it doesn't mean you have to put up with it. Also, this kind of reaction only further perpetuates the problems. I have known plenty of big name professors who are not this way (either as their student, or their collaborator, or knowing someone who worked for them).

My advice is to stop contacting this prof that won't be a good fit for you and immediately start contacting the other professor. If you like the other professor, indicate that they are your top choice (it's up to you whether or not you want to indicate the first prof is a choice even---if there's no way you would work with them, then don't bother). If the second person isn't good either, then just drop the school. 

[fuzzylogician]

23 hours ago, MaytheSchwartzBeWithYou said:

While I want to be understanding about how busy professors are and don't want to make too many assumptions, I do NOT want to spend six to ten years of my life tethered to an advisor with whom I personally clash, regardless of how I feel about their scholarship. On the other hand, I'm torn as to whether that's enough for me to turn town a possible opportunity to study with someone who is contributing great work to my field.

I haven't yet contacted the other person I could work with out of respect for this guy, and the application for this school is due VERY soon (I've really been hesitating to drop the school). Do you have any advice as to whether I should apply anyway, and if/how I might go about indicating I'd like to work with someone OTHER than the person I contacted?

My advice: don't take crap from people. Don't work with advisors who won't give you the time of day or who you just clash with because of a personality mismatch that's beyond anyone's control. This "PhD advisors are all assholes, it's how it is and it'll teach you to appreciate the time they do give you" is bullshit. There are certainly assholes out there, but there is no reason why you should work with them. Find someone who you enjoy working with and who gives you the kind of attention you want. Don't feel bad about it, either. You are doing exactly the right thing. Contact the other guy now and see how this plays out.

If he is the only option at that school, you might apply and only list him in your SOP, or depending on your other choices you might think it's too risky and not even bother. I would probably lean towards "too risky" because the unresponsive prof is still likely to affect your life, as one of only two people at the school (as I understand it) who work in your area, even if he is not your advisor. This is assuming that the relationship with "other guy" stays good throughout your 5+ years in your program, which is also not guaranteed. Having just one person is risky. So, that's something to keep in mind and try to figure out: how much would you have to interact with the unresponsive prof and how much influence would they have on you? Would you be ok with that? 

[betsy303]

I'm going to echo what has been said here. The job market that requires PhDs in the art historical is fierce. More so than the name of your institution, is the word of your advisor. He/She will be the one who helps you find a job in your area and provide you with support throughout the program. If he/she can't support you now, why would he/she be able to support you during the program or when you look for a job? A famous advisor is great! However, not if it comes with someone who won't routinely support, or worse, someone who is antagonistic. I have heard many stories about these advisers who for whatever reasons have actually gone and written "negative" letters. The last thing you need is someone who isn't 100% supportive or only pulls through for you at the last minute....

[ExponentialDecay]

I don't understand why everyone is being so categorical. OP is complaining that the professor has been unresponsive during finals season. Like, duh.

In general, yes, nobody should put up with asshole advisors because they are no different from asshole people of any profession, and also because having an advisor who takes an active interest in your success is imperative to said success. When it comes to particular cases, I think it's important to keep in mind that individual cases are individual, and one never knows the full story. Everyone is jumping on Joan Calamezzo here because she's cool with her advisor not returning emails (a common sin if ever there was one), but as long as her advisor does the important stuff like advocate for her, introduce her to the right people, provide adequate guidance for her work, that he's a socially awkward weirdo or has a big ego starts to matter a lot less. The thing with big-name advisors isn't even so much the ego (though that's often also true) as that they're constantly giving invited talks or closing a conference or being fabulous for money. It's equally unproductive to expect the full package.

As for OP's situation, I don't know how she expected their conversation to go, but I would concur that the fact that he even responded back is a good sign.

[fuzzylogician]

I, at least, wasn't really addressing my comments at Joan Calamezzo in particular, and I agree with everything you said about advising relationships that might be very successful despite the advisor not being great with email (though my opinion has somewhat changed since I've graduated and moved away, and chasing an advisor to get LORs on time and to work on joint papers has become exponentially more difficult). I do want to take seriously the OP's feeling regarding this particular situation, because in my experience if you feel that someone isn't right for you, for whatever reason, that's not something to ignore and hope that it will go away. Someone who won't read your materials, isn't conscious of your deadlines, and won't reciprocate correspondence sounds like someone I wouldn't want to work with, personally. Maybe others can find ways to make it work, and that's fine too. And more importantly, there is no obligation to wait for an unresponsive person and not contact anyone else in the same department, so that's the biggest point. 

[rising_star]

On 12/11/2015 at 4:04 PM, MaytheSchwartzBeWithYou said:

Long story short, I had a phone conversation with this person about a month ago, in which it seemed he hadn't bothered to read the materials he had asked me to send him, after he had twice flaked on the call entirely (he told me he was extremely busy). He wasn't rude on the call, and in fact answered all of my questions, but it was not at all what I anticipated the conversation to be. This and my other past experience with him have made me seriously question whether to apply to this school, especially since my understanding of application etiquette is that I can't just contact another faculty member if I'm not feeling the first person I contacted.  While I want to be understanding about how busy professors are and don't want to make too many assumptions, I do NOT want to spend six to ten years of my life tethered to an advisor with whom I personally clash, regardless of how I feel about their scholarship. On the other hand, I'm torn as to whether that's enough for me to turn town a possible opportunity to study with someone who is contributing great work to my field.

So my PhD advisor sounds pretty similar to this POI of yours in that he gets busy, sometimes forgets to read stuff, isn't super communicative with prospective students*, but is really awesome when you get his attention and great at helping you revise your work for grants or for the dissertation. I knew all of that going in and still decided to apply to that school and ultimately to work with him. Why? Because I knew I personally didn't want or need an advisor that would be really hands-on throughout the entire program. (Note: I wasn't always that way and specifically chose my MA advisor because they were more hands-on and I knew I wanted/needed that to be successful.) If you know it's going to be a personality clash, then maybe you shouldn't apply. But, it could be worth talking to some of your POI's current grad students to see what he's like as an advisor once you're in the program. 

Also, I have never viewed myself as "tethered to an advisor". I have a dissertation committee, other graduate students, and the faculty from my MA program, all of whom I worked with at various stages of my graduate career. While yes, my advisor is the one I get asked about most, I'm not a mini-me or a clone of him, nor did I ever intend to be. 

*I later realized the reason he doesn't communicate with them much is because he gets contacted by a lot of prospective students, most of whom either won't apply or won't get in. Once I was admitted and asked questions, the communication was better.

[Eigen]

Continuing from Rising_Star, my advisor is similar. But great, and I love him, and he's been really helpful. But he's busy, and I have to keep on top of him to get him to do what I need him to. 

So I wouldn't think any of what you've posted in this thread, specifically, is a problem. I also wouldn't consider having to reschedule calls "flaking", it happens when people are busy. 

That said, you've said you've gotten a 'vibe' off of him you don't like before. I'm a big believer in trusting your gut on things like this. You're going to be working with this person for a long time, and to some extent, you'll be tied to them for the rest of your career. If they're someone you don't think that you can work with, find someone else! It doesn't mean the person is a bad advisor, objectively, but it might mean they wouldn't be the best match for you, personally.

You don't have to justify your reason to anyone- who you pick to work with is completely your decision.

[kaykaykay]

You are a prospective student not his advisee yet. You do not know how many prospective students he has to talk to. Maybe he is prioritizing his current students.  It is already a good sign that he had a phone conversation with you. I am not sure but in some fields it is not even a norm that professors get into touch with prospective students. In any case you should absolutely identify more than one professor that you could work with in the department. Also you will not lose anything by applying, if you get in you can evaluate how he is behaving with you then (hopefully in person) and with his other students.

[ExponentialDecay]

I believe in vibes and personal learning styles as much as the next person, and I'm sure OP will take a course of action that is best for them. At the same time, I have to echo the sentiment of the two preceding comments: as a prospective applicant, expecting to be any kind of priority for a professor is somewhat unrealistic. If this is a top institution, these people get dozens upon dozens of such emails. The real assholes don't respond unless provided a letter of introduction from a colleague.

[Joan Callamezzo]

16 hours ago, betsy303 said:

I'm going to echo what has been said here. The job market that requires PhDs in the art historical is fierce. More so than the name of your institution, is the word of your advisor. He/She will be the one who helps you find a job in your area and provide you with support throughout the program. If he/she can't support you now, why would he/she be able to support you during the program or when you look for a job? A famous advisor is great! However, not if it comes with someone who won't routinely support, or worse, someone who is antagonistic. I have heard many stories about these advisers who for whatever reasons have actually gone and written "negative" letters. The last thing you need is someone who isn't 100% supportive or only pulls through for you at the last minute....

Disagree here. There is no reason an advisor needs to be "supporting" you during the application process. The odds of each applicant who reaches out to a POI actually attending the program are low - most applicants won't be accepted into the program, and of those who are accepted many will choose to attend other programs. It doesn't make sense for advisors to get overly invested, even if they really do like an applicant and want to work with them. You can't expect an advisor to court you - maybe some people have this experience after they've been accepted and are deciding between multiple offers, but not as a perspective applicant. 

I am a little surprised at some of these comments. What OP has described is a normal to above-average level of response from a POI. As someone said above, just apply to the school, visit if you are accepted and make your decision then. It is not possible to get a good idea of someone's personality or character from these types of communications. When I was applying to PhD programs it was actually the prof who was the most receptive and welcoming to me that turned out to be a HUGE asshole, while my current advisor (who didn't even respond to my inquiry) is the greatest mentor I could ever ask for.  

[betsy303]

Everyone has a different experience and one professor shouldn't really be the make it or break it point for your program. Now, what really should be the make it or break it point is if you can get your hands on a job placement sheet somewhere....

Something I would also shift towards is checking with the department to examine if there are some current graduate students you can correspond with. That could be more telling of the departmental ethos as well. 

I will say, I was "courted" by folks at at several reputable  institutions. It really helped with my sanity during the process, knowing I had some advocates for me (who also happened to be the "rock stars" in the department). One institution in particular, they sent me some internal grant I should apply for and low and behold -- it translated into a big time fellowship package that put anything else I was offered to shame. 

[Eigen]

Job placement sheets are only so useful, to be honest. 

Take my program- by stats, our placements are pretty bad. But every *good* student that has put in the time has gotten a good placement. Those looking in from the outside can't see the huge diversity in student personalities relative to outcome, but there's a pretty strong correlation between people who barely showed up and ended up scraping by with a PhD with reservations from the committee and advisor, and those who have a hard time getting jobs. 

Having faculty advocate for you is well and fine, but you also have to (a) give them the material they need to advocate for you, and (b) learn how to advocate for yourself. 

I just put this out here because I see an increasing focus on placement statistics, and know personally how meaningless those can be.

[rising_star]

Departmental placement statistics also aren't nearly as helpful as those of specific advisors. The placement stats for my PhD advisor are much stronger than those of the department as a whole for a variety of reasons. Placement stats are never the full story because they don't really help you understand the choices individuals made/make about what they want for their career. For example, not everyone wants to be at a R1 (or RU/VH) institution so, if you're focused on that in placement stats, you may be under- or over-estimating a particular department's or advisor's ability to get their students there. Some people want to go into industry and then are left out of placement stats. Some people decide they want to focus on family, prioritize their spouse's career, or do something besides get a tenure-track job, all of which is perfectly fine except when prospective students are looking at placement stats and viewing those students as failures.

[MaytheSchwartzBeWithYou]

7 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said:

I believe in vibes and personal learning styles as much as the next person, and I'm sure OP will take a course of action that is best for them. At the same time, I have to echo the sentiment of the two preceding comments: as a prospective applicant, expecting to be any kind of priority for a professor is somewhat unrealistic. If this is a top institution, these people get dozens upon dozens of such emails. The real assholes don't respond unless provided a letter of introduction from a colleague.

 

23 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said:

I don't understand why everyone is being so categorical. OP is complaining that the professor has been unresponsive during finals season. Like, duh.

In general, yes, nobody should put up with asshole advisors because they are no different from asshole people of any profession, and also because having an advisor who takes an active interest in your success is imperative to said success. When it comes to particular cases, I think it's important to keep in mind that individual cases are individual, and one never knows the full story. Everyone is jumping on Joan Calamezzo here because she's cool with her advisor not returning emails (a common sin if ever there was one), but as long as her advisor does the important stuff like advocate for her, introduce her to the right people, provide adequate guidance for her work, that he's a socially awkward weirdo or has a big ego starts to matter a lot less. The thing with big-name advisors isn't even so much the ego (though that's often also true) as that they're constantly giving invited talks or closing a conference or being fabulous for money. It's equally unproductive to expect the full package.

As for OP's situation, I don't know how she expected their conversation to go, but I would concur that the fact that he even responded back is a good sign.

Exponential, I think perhaps you and a few other posters here are misreading my understanding of the applications process, as well as my expectations (this isn't my first applications rodeo, and I have an MA, so I know how to work with an advisor - I wrote my thesis with minimal advising).  I recognize it's finals season and he doesn't have a lot of time to talk with me, and I appreciated that he reached out to me at all (I actually wasn't complaining that I didn't get enough attention - it's how he handled it that was the issue, not that he flaked). I in no way expect to be a priority for this person - I simply expect common courtesy. I think some posters here forget this isn't the first time I've interacted with him, so I have more experience with him than most people applying for a doctoral program. Honestly, this isn't a top-tier school we're talking about, so I don't think I'm jumping to any particular conclusions when I say his ego is over-inflated (I'm also not the only person that had that impression).

Honestly, as some of you have said, deciding on this issue is partly personal choice - it depends on what you feel is right for you.

I very much appreciate everyone's responses, especially so quickly. Listening to other perspectives has solidified my decision.

[ExponentialDecay]

35 minutes ago, MaytheSchwartzBeWithYou said:

 

Exponential, I think perhaps you and a few other posters here are misreading my understanding of the applications process, as well as my expectations (this isn't my first applications rodeo, and I have an MA, so I know how to work with an advisor - I wrote my thesis with minimal advising).  I recognize it's finals season and he doesn't have a lot of time to talk with me, and I appreciated that he reached out to me at all (I actually wasn't complaining that I didn't get enough attention - it's how he handled it that was the issue, not that he flaked). I in no way expect to be a priority for this person - I simply expect common courtesy. I think some posters here forget this isn't the first time I've interacted with him, so I have more experience with him than most people applying for a doctoral program. Honestly, this isn't a top-tier school we're talking about, so I don't think I'm jumping to any particular conclusions when I say his ego is over-inflated (I'm also not the only person that had that impression).

Honestly, as some of you have said, deciding on this issue is partly personal choice - it depends on what you feel is right for you.

I very much appreciate everyone's responses, especially so quickly. Listening to other perspectives has solidified my decision.

Without a doubt, I'm probably misreading you. I can only get so much out of a vague forum post. If you know what's up already, of course you should do as you see fit - after all, this whole board comes with an extra helping of caveat emptor.

[brown_eyed_girl]

On December 13, 2015 at 8:01 AM, kaykaykay said:

You are a prospective student not his advisee yet. You do not know how many prospective students he has to talk to. Maybe he is prioritizing his current students.  It is already a good sign that he had a phone conversation with you. I am not sure but in some fields it is not even a norm that professors get into touch with prospective students. In any case you should absolutely identify more than one professor that you could work with in the department. Also you will not lose anything by applying, if you get in you can evaluate how he is behaving with you then (hopefully in person) and with his other students.

This. My advisor is a top scholar in my field and has been great to me so far - they have advocated for me, gotten me perks like extra travel funds, introduced me to people I should know, been engaged with my work, etc. My advisor is kind, helpful, and makes time for me despite an extremely busy schedule. They were also one of the least responsive POIs I contacted during the application cycle, and I kind of assumed I had no chance of getting in because of how disinterested they seemed at that point. I'm so glad I didn't let that stop me from applying, because I now think we are a great match (methodologically and personality wise) and I realize that my advisor had no reason to prioritize me when I was one of many prospective students deluging their inbox. My advice is to apply, see where you get in, and then weigh advisor fit and school fit when you have your admittances in hand. 

[TakeruK]

I do agree that if the advising style works for the student then it doesn't really matter. And I also agree that an advisor can be very unresponsive to emails but a great advocate for you in all other ways. And it's definitely true that you can't expect a professor to spend time on a prospective student the same way they would for a current student!

My main objection from my original post is that I don't think it's a good thing for academia to "normalize" unresponsive faculty behaviour. I don't think a prospective student should count their blessings and consider themselves "lucky" to even get a simple email reply from the faculty member! But the opposite is also true---it's not reasonable for a prospective student to expect that a faculty member to take time away from their own duties to respond to every email. What I mean is that I would object to both considering an email response to be one of either extremes!

The "fit"/compatibility between advisor and student is so important. I think that it's a good idea to go with your "gut response" to how you feel about your interactions with someone. For the OP's case, it is clear from their posts that they do not enjoy their interactions with this person and it's not just the lack of email response. When I see that, I think it's important to acknowledge that it's okay to 1) talk to other professors and 2) decide to not work for someone you don't enjoy interacting with even if they are the best person in the field. 

[Gundohinus]

Apply apply apply! And DO reach out to other people. As Brown-Eyed-Girl said, it's not fair to judge faculty on the basis of how responsive they are to you as a prospective student who has not even applied yet. Things will probably change dramatically if you get accepted into their program. If you are accepted and the person of interest still acts kinds of clueless and indifferent toward you? Accept another offer. THAT's the time to judge faculty for their level of engagement with you.

(Personal anecdote alert: When I was looking at grad schools I got into my two top schools, both highly ranked. In one I was looking at this very high-profile hotshot celebrity advisor, in the other I was going to have a more low-key but very steady person. When I met with Person 1 he gave me the world's limpest handshake, complained about some aches and pains, and then asked me if I was applying to the undergraduate program (!) and why I was interested in art history. Person 2 arranged for his students to meet me and have me stay with them, insisted that I join his seminar, took me and a small group of students out to lunch, talked all about my interests and how I would fit into the program. Going to work with Person 2 was the best decision I ever made. Person 1 was so involved with his own fame that he only produced a couple of students who went on to finish their dissertations and get decent tt jobs; there was almost no advising at all. Person 2 has populated the field in North America with his students, who are all working on a huge range of topics and teaching at many kinds of places. Both were equally aloof when I was first applying.) 

[knp]

It all depends on the relative scarcity of your other options, no? If deleting this school would take you from four applications down to three, I'd advise you apply. What could it hurt? Visit weekend could turn out way better than you're expecting, and a phone call is actually a pretty nice gesture. On the other hand, if this would be your eleventh application, I'd advise you not to bother if you don't want to. You've met him in person, so it's your call; I'm pretty sure there's no wrong answer here, though.

[anonymousbequest]

Just for a bit of perspective from the other side of the aisle here, remember that your busy application season is (as others have pointed out) professors' busy grading season. Faculty want to get their grading done so they can go off and enjoy the holiday break, it's not a great time for "cold calling" as an applicant. In addition many of them are also writing letters of recommendation for their undergraduate and graduate students for programs and fellowships, which (if you don't want to phone them in and I'm sure everyone here would agree on that) take quite a bit of work to craft, just as your statements of purpose and writing samples do. Finally, now that classes are over and finals nearly done, it's time to turn attention to classes or projects for next semester. If advising students working on senior or MA theses, or with ABDs wanting to file in spring, it's also time to ramp up with them. I'm not excusing rude behavior, there are many assholes among faculty everywhere, but it doesn't sound as though OP's POI was rude, just scattered. I'm embarrassed to say that I have an email from a prospective applicant to my program that just fell off my radar and is now a few weeks old. The graduate and undergraduate students already attending my institution, who are my first priority, seem to like me so I don't think I'm a terrible person. 

It is essential that you speak with current advisees of your POIs, and also former ones if possible, that's how you'll get the best info on whether they are responsive and helpful mentors should you choose to study with them. Mobilize your networks, some faculty at your current institution likely went to this program, or know people who have, and can either put you in touch with others or give you their impression. I've said this many times elsewhere on this forum, but the right advisor/mentor can make up for deficiencies in your program overall. It's what makes it difficult to rank programs with certainty. 

Ok back to reading 25 page research papers and making sure I'm keeping up with my LORs. Penn and Columbia were this week? Harvard up next? I think that's right. Happy Holidays applicants!