Can I Get In...Somewhere?

[Tam]

So here's my deal. I want to go to grad school to do pure math, hopefully to get a PhD. I know I can't get into a top program (at all), but I'm not sure exactly how good or bad a candidate I might be for something like a large state school or, well, anywhere.

I'm just finishing my bachelor's this year, at 34, at a public 4-year college (not university) that nobody outside of my state will have heard of. I'll have about a 3.6 GPA, higher in math (about 3.9 I think) from this college, but I did flunk out of a Really Good School when I was much younger, so my overall GPA (if we have to count those grades from the 1990s) is about 3.0.

Took the GRE, got 720V/780Q. Don't intend to take the math subject exam at all, and I'm not applying to schools that require it (and only to one school that wants it at all).

I think my LORs will be good, though of course they are from my professors at Unknown Regional College.

I have one published paper, in Computer Science. Neither the paper nor the journal are at all impressive ("Journal of Computing Sciences in Colleges").

I have worked full time at a career while going to school part time. My transcript shows a lot of classes that I started and did not finish.

The places I'm applying are from about #60 to #110 on the NRC list, and are spread out geographically.

Does it sound like I have a decent chance of getting into one of these schools, with funding? I'm planning to apply at about 8 places.

[Angelicasassy]

So here's my deal. I want to go to grad school to do pure math, hopefully to get a PhD. I know I can't get into a top program (at all), but I'm not sure exactly how good or bad a candidate I might be for something like a large state school or, well, anywhere.

I'm just finishing my bachelor's this year, at 34, at a public 4-year college (not university) that nobody outside of my state will have heard of. I'll have about a 3.6 GPA, higher in math (about 3.9 I think) from this college, but I did flunk out of a Really Good School when I was much younger, so my overall GPA (if we have to count those grades from the 1990s) is about 3.0.

Took the GRE, got 720V/780Q. Don't intend to take the math subject exam at all, and I'm not applying to schools that require it (and only to one school that wants it at all).

I think my LORs will be good, though of course they are from my professors at Unknown Regional College.

I have one published paper, in Computer Science. Neither the paper nor the journal are at all impressive ("Journal of Computing Sciences in Colleges").

I have worked full time at a career while going to school part time. My transcript shows a lot of classes that I started and did not finish.

The places I'm applying are from about #60 to #110 on the NRC list, and are spread out geographically.

Does it sound like I have a decent chance of getting into one of these schools, with funding? I'm planning to apply at about 8 places.

Are you joking? You have a 1500 GRE score and your GPA will weigh much heavier on the later years.

Apply to top schools as well, I don't think you have much to worry about.

[Tam]

It's hard to figure out. I realize my GRE score is good, and my GPA in recent years is reasonably high, but (a) I go to a school nobody has heard of, and ( my transcript is really raggedy (I've been going to my current school since summer of 2001).

[cogneuroforfun]

It's hard to figure out. I realize my GRE score is good, and my GPA in recent years is reasonably high, but (a) I go to a school nobody has heard of, and ( my transcript is really raggedy (I've been going to my current school since summer of 2001).

You certainly have a shot at places more prestigious than #60-100. At least apply to your favorite top 10, several top 20, etc. Isn't it worth the extra $50-100 per school to have a shot at getting in at a significantly better school? If you feel up to it, I would recommend taking the subject test, as it would help show that your curriculum is at least somewhat comparable to more well-known schools. But you definitely won't get in if you don't apply!

Edit: I meant to add, if you can have a letter writer attest to your work ethic, perseverance, etc., that would go a long way toward alleviating any problems you might face from having multiple W's on your transcript.

Edited November 3, 2009 by cogneuroforfun

[UnlikelyGrad]

I have two sisters who also flunked out of Really Good Schools, then went on to undergrad at less good schools (in one case, known more for sports rather than academics!). Both got an NSF scholarship and went to Berkeley for grad school. Both are now professors.

I didn't flunk out of a Really Good School--I took a leave of absence in the middle of the term, because it was clear I was going to be given the boot if I stayed around to collect my grades. I never went back. I went to a no-name school for my bachelor's and ended up with a 3.6 (neglecting the grades from the RGS, of course).

Note that while I'm not going to a terribly high ranked school for my Ph.D., I did get into a top 10 school for my field. (I just didn't like it when I visited. This place felt like home.)

I think you have the capability to get into a good school. Your situation is somewhat analogous to mine. You even have a publication!! (I didn't.) I agree with cogneuroforfun--apply to a couple of really good schools, just for grins. You may be surprised at where you get in. I know I was.

[mrb]

At the risk of being dismissive of others' contributions, I do wonder how much people in non-math programs can offer valid advice in this situation (and I really am not trying to be offensive here; I'm sure their input is appreciated, but I think you must also look at the specifics of your discipline). For instance, your general GRE score is probably irrelevant (it's expected as a matter of course that your quantitative score will be perfect or nearly so, and who would ever care about verbal?).

So, yes, you are probably right that you can't get into top programs. Still, it might be worth your time to apply to apply to more highly ranked schools than #60, except that I guess it's now too late to take the Math Subject GRE, so that might restrict where you can apply. You haven't listed what classes you have taken; assuming you have covered your bases like a couple courses each in analysis and algebra along with some other upper division classes, I think you should be fine at the range you are applying to. Of course if you've already taken some grad classes, that would be very nice.

(Please note though that all this is just based on my opinions & experience applying to graduate schools (in math) this semester, talking to my professors, talking to a grad student at Harvard, and talking to the chair of the department at Duke.)

Edited November 8, 2009 by mrb

[Tam]

Thanks for your thoughts.

The main expected course I'm missing is differential equations, which I never managed to fit in. I do (or will) have two semesters of analysis, two semesters of non-Euclidean geometry, abstract algebra, linear algebra, prob/stats, discrete math, and the rest of the calculus sequence. I have a 4.0 in upper division math.

I haven't taken any graduate-level classes. My school doesn't actually have any graduate-level classes, so that's partly why. If I don't get any decent offers this year, I will take a couple next year while continuing to work, and try again.

[mrb]

That's cool. I think a year's worth of advanced/grad classes might do a lot to strengthen your application. Schools would probably be more inclined to ignore your earlier non-stellar performance if they saw you were indeed capable of getting As in real graduate classes. (In fact, really, I don't think your background completely prevents you from going to really good schools... if you were to have these grad classes, really great letters, a good subject GRE... how much is it really going to matter that your early college experience didn't go well?)

BTW, my situation is similar. I'm 29; at 18 I quit college basically as soon as I started. Fortunately it was before I received any grades, so I have "Ws" (for withdrawn) on my transcript, but no real grades to lower my GPA.

[appmatharmy]

Thanks for your thoughts.

The main expected course I'm missing is differential equations, which I never managed to fit in. I do (or will) have two semesters of analysis, two semesters of non-Euclidean geometry, abstract algebra, linear algebra, prob/stats, discrete math, and the rest of the calculus sequence. I have a 4.0 in upper division math.

I haven't taken any graduate-level classes. My school doesn't actually have any graduate-level classes, so that's partly why. If I don't get any decent offers this year, I will take a couple next year while continuing to work, and try again.

I'm just another applicant, and it's too late now, but I concur with the advice to apply to better programs than you think you can get. I see you applied to KY...I did as well. I was surprised to find their program appears to be decent (based on info from the web page) and big enough to have a decent course offering each year (RPI for example has limited offerings each year). The stats program there is a bit better, and there's no reason not to take classes from the other department (if probability at all interests you). Good Luck!

[Tam]

Thanks, Appmatharmy. I don't know if you saw in the other thread, but I got accepted by University of North Texas today. So I guess the answer to the thread title, at least, is "yes."

Edited January 26, 2010 by Tam

[datamineguy]

Thanks, Appmatharmy. I don't know if you saw in the other thread, but I got accepted by University of North Texas today. So I guess the answer to the thread title, at least, is "yes."

what are you going to research in?

[Tam]

I'm not really sure. Algebra, maybe, or combinatorics. Or algebraic geometry. I really have no idea, but probably not something in analysis.

[1f3_2kf2]

I'm not really sure. Algebra, maybe, or combinatorics. Or algebraic geometry. I really have no idea, but probably not something in analysis.

One of the PRIMARY REASONS why one would take a subject GRE test is to show that their unknown regional college had a sufficiently traditional curriculum to allow you to get into the 90th percentile on the test!!

Take the math subject test! Study for it and get into the 90th percentile! This will MAKE UP FOR your college's unknown reputation!! ..to an extent. But it will help if you are confident you can score in the 90th percentile!

If you DO get into the 90th percentile, then apply for higher ranked programs as the above posters said. But without the subject GRE "prestigious" schools will be all like "well his school is not prestigious like ours so maybe he didn't really learn anything and those A's he got in upper div math mean nothing!" But with the 90th percentile on GRE subject they must say "well even though we aren't sure what the cirriculum is like at regional college X, he WAS able to beat 90 percent of the people who took this test -- the vast majority of whom came from well-known colleges! I am now more willing to accept his 4.0 upper div math GPA as a piece of evidence that he will be a good researcher in our department"

TAKE THE TEST!!!!!!

[mrb]

One of the PRIMARY REASONS why one would take a subject GRE test is to show that their unknown regional college had a sufficiently traditional curriculum to allow you to get into the 90th percentile on the test!!

Sure, yeah, but obviously most of the people who take the test (in fact, about 90% of them) are not going to get into the 90th percentile. Personally, I did extremely well in my undergrad program and studied a decent bit for the test, but got a decidedly mediocre score that isn't doing anything to help me on applications. The test is just so different from anything I care about or am good at. The math subject test is mainly about doing fairly trivial problems very quickly. I do not and never will work quickly, even on simple problems, so there's simply no way to showcase my strengths through this test. I'm sure plenty of other people feel the same way.

[Tam]

Yes, acing the subject GRE is something I'm keeping in mind as a project for next year if I don't get in anywhere this year. Right now I don't have time to study for it, and on practice tests I don't do very well.

[1f3_2kf2]

oh well in that case I am convinced that both of you go to rinky dink community colleges and you weren't really properly educated. GL

[Tam]

oh well in that case I am convinced that both of you go to rinky dink community colleges and you weren't really properly educated. GL

Well, that's OK I guess. So far I am 3 for 3 on acceptances, so perhaps your impression is different from that of the schools to which I've applied. Thankfully.

One of my biggest math weaknesses comes from the fact that I took Calc 2 in 1992. I should really revisit that material at some point.

[kroner]

I did well on the math GRE (860) but I'm going to go ahead and say that it's kind of a bullshit test. The intersection between the material on the test and the material I learned in undergrad was very small. And solving simple questions quickly has nothing to do with what you'll be doing as a researcher. Not that I really blame the ETS. I think making a single test that gauges your math preparation for grad school is an extremely difficult prospect. The common foundation ends pretty early on compared to other disciplines, and then people can end up really heavily specializing in one area or another. Plus it seems like what's offered at different schools varies a lot. It's just unfortunate there's not a better way.