Would YOU turn down Harvard?

[Vulpix]

I'm not in this position yet, but basically, I've gotten into Penn, and have fallen in love with my program and the school, so much so that I almost don't want to get an acceptance to Harvard (which I will find out about in March), because then I would end up seriously considering turning it down .  However, the thought of getting into Harvard and choosing another school (even another Ivy), kind of makes me sick... like, will I regret it?  Even if Penn is the more "perfect program for me", in the long run, wouldn't having gone to Harvard be the biggest accomplishment I could hope to put on a resume?  My family and friends all say, you f***ing GO to Harvard if you get into Harvard.  When I first started my application process, I of course agreed with them.

Without delving too deeply into my personal experience and needs and finances and how all of that should reasonably factor into the decision (I'll do that if I'm lucky enough to be put in this predicament, I realize it would be an amazingly fortunate problem to have), I was wondering what everyone's general thoughts on this are? 

Edited January 17, 2016 by Heather1011

[nevermind]

Honestly, if it were between the University of Phoenix or Harvard, obviously, you should go to Harvard.

But doing a Ph.D. is hard enough, especially without continually second guessing where you end(ed) up.

At the end of the day, you really should attend a program you LOVE, where you feel like your research is supported, and where you get to work with great people (if you're lucky enough to get an offer from such a program...which it sounds like you are). Obviously, rankings matter (to a degree) on the job market, but so do publications/presentations/other professional schtick which are easier to come by if you're in the perfect environment for your research (and for you personally).

If you feel Penn is a place where you feel more ambitious/would be more successful--go to Penn. I wouldn't go to a school based solely on brand name value. You could be miserable at Harvard, which would be a waste of your time. 

However, you should wait until you have both offers in hand and then visit the campuses (if you can). Get a feel for the programs and really envision where you want to be. It's easy to get caught up in the "OMG I got in! I want to go to this school NOW!!!" adrenaline that comes with acceptances. Just be patient and figure out what's right for YOU. 

(Coincidentally, I applied to Penn and Oregon. Oregon has been tied for my number 2 spot over the "name brand" of Penn...because I feel like I could do really good work with the faculty there. Not likely to have to make a decision between the two...I don't think i got an interview at Penn. :-) )

Edited January 17, 2016 by nevermind

[Vulpix]

8 minutes ago, nevermind said:

Honestly, if it were between the University of Phoenix or Harvard, obviously, you should go to Harvard.

But doing a Ph.D. is hard enough, especially without continually second guessing where you end(ed) up.

At the end of the day, you really should attend a program you LOVE, where you feel like your research is supported, and where you get to work with great people (if you're lucky enough to get an offer from such a program...which it sounds like you are). Obviously, rankings matter (to a degree) on the job market, but so do publications/presentations/other professional schtick which are easier to come by if you're in the perfect environment for your research (and for you personally).

If you feel Penn is a place where you feel more ambitious/would be more successful--go to Penn. I wouldn't go to a school based solely on brand name value. You could be miserable at Harvard, which would be a waste of your time. 

However, you should wait until you have both offers in hand and then visit the campuses (if you can). Get a feel for the programs and really envision where you want to be. It's easy to get caught up in the "OMG I got in! I want to go to this school NOW!!!" adrenaline that comes with acceptances. Just be patient and figure out what's right for YOU. 

(Coincidentally, I applied to Penn and Oregon. Oregon has been tied for my number 2 spot over the "name brand" of Penn...because I feel like I could do really good work with the faculty there. Not likely to have to make a decision between the two...I don't think i got an interview at Penn. :-) )

Thanks for this.  I'm just a lowly masters student, so I don't yet have to truly consider things like publications and whatnot, as I intended to get in and get out as they say (both are 1 year programs).  I definitely look forward to the admitted students weekend at Penn (and perhaps Harvard).  Obviously Penn IS already a name brand, and there is a lot of adrenaline still.  Hopefully I'll have a full picture to make a super informed decision if I should be so lucky.

LOL my mom got an MA from University of Phoenix online and is the chief proponent of GO TO HARVARD NO MATTER WHAT.  

[Warelin]

If Penn is the best program fit for you, go to Penn. If there's another school with a better fit, go to it.

Besides fit, funding matters. Are you comfortable with the stipend they provide when compared to your current lifestyle?

Just as important: which schools could you see yourself devoting the next half-full decade at?

[PoliticalOrder]

For a one-year MA program...it doesn't really matter all that much if you are comparing apples with apples. 

[Infinito]

I had a friend that turned down Harvard for Duke because she felt the program fit better and the atmosphere was more cordial and collaborative, and more inline with her ideal research.
I also went to Penn as an undergrad, so I didn't want to apply for graduate school there due to intellectual incest and just wanting to explore other parts.

Since Penn and Harvard are already Tier 1 schools (and most likely the same situation for your grad programs), picking Harvard over Penn would simply be a choice someone would make because they have people to please, their own ego to stroke, etc. Because, seriously, at that tier, your success is based on you and not the program. And if you'd only pick Harvard to let your parents brag to their friends about where their kid is, then I don't know what to say to you. I would think that people would have grown up by the time they apply to graduate school, but I guess I could be wrong. 

 

[Vulpix]

3 hours ago, PoliticalOrder said:

For a one-year MA program...it doesn't really matter all that much if you are comparing apples with apples. 

This is the part that makes it a could-go-either way thing.  It doesn't even matter if I'm 'relatively happy' or 'so happy', because it's only one year, and yet it somehow seems critical to make the right choice.  I think it's because the experience itself will feel so fleeting, and almost irrelevant, to what the degree and institution itself represents afterwards.

2 hours ago, Infinito said:

I had a friend that turned down Harvard for Duke because she felt the program fit better and the atmosphere was more cordial and collaborative, and more inline with her ideal research.
I also went to Penn as an undergrad, so I didn't want to apply for graduate school there due to intellectual incest and just wanting to explore other parts.

Since Penn and Harvard are already Tier 1 schools (and most likely the same situation for your grad programs), picking Harvard over Penn would simply be a choice someone would make because they have people to please, their own ego to stroke, etc. Because, seriously, at that tier, your success is based on you and not the program. And if you'd only pick Harvard to let your parents brag to their friends about where their kid is, then I don't know what to say to you. I would think that people would have grown up by the time they apply to graduate school, but I guess I could be wrong. 

 

I think choosing Duke over Harvard for what I assume is a PhD is highly logical.  I think choosing [insert state here] State University over Harvard is extremely logical for a PhD.  I'm a masters student, but I am not in the "grow up" situation that maybe my post suggested.  The only reason I brought up my mother at all is because most of my family is lower-income, rarely has had higher education, and have basically only heard of Harvard and some local schools.  It's less about bragging and more about the symbolism of achievement of some abstract American dream that means something significant to a family that has never really accessed that type of "success."  I am fully aware and in agreement that Penn is an incredible school, and obviously I'm mature enough to rank it first in my mind right now, just because I may get into Harvard. As you can tell I'm seriously leaning toward Penn.  But the vast majority of undergrad and grad students at Harvard would be dishonest with themselves if they didn't admit that at least a small part of why they chose to go there was simply because of the name of the school, and that's not nothing.  These are things that are discussed openly in the Harvard threads on this forum in the past, mature people honestly saying "I love the program, the school is a great fit for me, AND IT'S HARVARD!!"  It's a valid feeling and virtually inescapable not to have that sense of brand in your head in some capacity.  But I don't want to go to Harvard "because it's Harvard," I would want to go there because of all the doors it will open and the vast resources and opportunities that I think I could be missing out on if I don't, even with the incredible opportunities that I'm sure Penn provides.  Basically, the only reason I'm afraid to turn down Harvard is because I believe that however amazing Penn is, Harvard may offer just a little bit more opportunity.  

I do appreciate your comment that "your success is based on you and not the program."  I certainly believe this to be true (just like you don't need to go to either of these schools to achieve success).  I think because my field of study is international in nature, I need to worry about the networking and connections these institutions have worldwide, and Harvard is one of those schools that has international recognition, without much exception.  Penn may offer an equally excellent education, but may be less recognizable to international players.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Heather1011

[nevermind]

32 minutes ago, Heather1011 said:

I do appreciate your comment that "your success is based on you and not the program."  I certainly believe this to be true (just like you don't need to go to either of these schools to achieve success).  I think because my field of study is international in nature, I need to worry about the networking and connections these institutions have worldwide, and Harvard is one of those schools that has international recognition, without much exception.  Penn may offer an equally excellent education, but may be less recognizable to international players.

Seems like you're arguing more in favor of Harvard than Penn. So maybe you already know which one you'll choose.  All else aside, I really don't think you could lose regardless of which one you select (or if you don't get into Harvard). Best of luck in the rest of your application season!

[Vulpix]

2 minutes ago, nevermind said:

Seems like you're arguing more in favor of Harvard than Penn. So maybe you already know which one you'll choose.  All else aside, I really don't think you could lose regardless of which one you select (or if you don't get into Harvard). Best of luck in the rest of your application season!

Thanks for the support  I think I'm grappling with the idea that I currently would prefer to attend Penn for its students experience, but would prefer after graduation to have the Harvard connections .  I feel really fortunate to potentially even have this problem, and if I get rejected from Harvard, which of course is always more likely than not, I can still move forward with a smile on my face.

Thanks for the input everyone!

[Infinito]

3 hours ago, Heather1011 said:

 

I think choosing Duke over Harvard for what I assume is a PhD is highly logical.  I think choosing [insert state here] State University over Harvard is extremely logical for a PhD.  I'm a masters student, but I am not in the "grow up" situation that maybe my post suggested.  The only reason I brought up my mother at all is because most of my family is lower-income, rarely has had higher education, and have basically only heard of Harvard and some local schools.  It's less about bragging and more about the symbolism of achievement of some abstract American dream that means something significant to a family that has never really accessed that type of "success."  I am fully aware and in agreement that Penn is an incredible school, and obviously I'm mature enough to rank it first in my mind right now, just because I may get into Harvard. As you can tell I'm seriously leaning toward Penn.  But the vast majority of undergrad and grad students at Harvard would be dishonest with themselves if they didn't admit that at least a small part of why they chose to go there was simply because of the name of the school, and that's not nothing.  These are things that are discussed openly in the Harvard threads on this forum in the past, mature people honestly saying "I love the program, the school is a great fit for me, AND IT'S HARVARD!!"  It's a valid feeling and virtually inescapable not to have that sense of brand in your head in some capacity.  But I don't want to go to Harvard "because it's Harvard," I would want to go there because of all the doors it will open and the vast resources and opportunities that I think I could be missing out on if I don't, even with the incredible opportunities that I'm sure Penn provides.  Basically, the only reason I'm afraid to turn down Harvard is because I believe that however amazing Penn is, Harvard may offer just a little bit more opportunity.  

I do appreciate your comment that "your success is based on you and not the program."  I certainly believe this to be true (just like you don't need to go to either of these schools to achieve success).  I think because my field of study is international in nature, I need to worry about the networking and connections these institutions have worldwide, and Harvard is one of those schools that has international recognition, without much exception.  Penn may offer an equally excellent education, but may be less recognizable to international players.

Don't worry, I understand where you're coming from. I attended Penn on a full ride pretty much due to coming from a low-income background, being first-generational, etc. And, of course, who can't fight the allure of HAAHHVAAAD? I do think for PhD programs it's more important to pick the right fit (all other things being equal), but it may be more important for you Masters (which is 1-2 years) to pick also the best program and something with a name.

Having gone to Penn, I can tell you that students do usually get annoyed when people mistake Penn for Penn State, or something else. Some people, especially the ones that matter, do know about Penn, and especially Wharton (the business school, since it's tied for #1 with Harvard and Stanford). So Harvard may have better name recognition for you, and especially initially as you talk about your background in interviews. But as you get older and have more experience, there's less school bragging to do. I guess the one thing you might be able to rely on is the alumni networks. 

Either way, hoping for the best for you and that you get to visit both and talk to the students and get a better sense of the programs.

[Vulpix]

5 hours ago, Infinito said:

Don't worry, I understand where you're coming from. I attended Penn on a full ride pretty much due to coming from a low-income background, being first-generational, etc. And, of course, who can't fight the allure of HAAHHVAAAD? I do think for PhD programs it's more important to pick the right fit (all other things being equal), but it may be more important for you Masters (which is 1-2 years) to pick also the best program and something with a name.

Having gone to Penn, I can tell you that students do usually get annoyed when people mistake Penn for Penn State, or something else. Some people, especially the ones that matter, do know about Penn, and especially Wharton (the business school, since it's tied for #1 with Harvard and Stanford). So Harvard may have better name recognition for you, and especially initially as you talk about your background in interviews. But as you get older and have more experience, there's less school bragging to do. I guess the one thing you might be able to rely on is the alumni networks. 

Either way, hoping for the best for you and that you get to visit both and talk to the students and get a better sense of the programs.

For a second I was worried you may be my best friend, who is also first-generation, low-income, went to Penn on a full ride... but she's already in med school .  But I'm sure that's the story of MANY Penn grads! 

My brother went to Penn State, so my family is already so confused, and it does irritate me.  I went to Vassar for undergrad which is also a well known and respected school but also one that many people haven't heard of, outside of the people who would have heard of it, you know?  It's not a big deal of course, and you're definitely right that people who matter would know the difference.  In the long run, I'm sure things will work out regardless of my choice  .

Thanks and best of luck to you too

 

Edited January 18, 2016 by Heather1011

[nm16]

Harvard!

 

Reasons:

1. I graduated EdM from Harvard. I'm unashamedly biased 

2. As a first-gen college student/poc, I felt so much more..."welcomed" by the Harvard community than any other program I visited. For me personally, that mattered -- I turned down grant-based funding from two schools to go to a place where I knew I'll be happier, while growing meaningfully as a person and as a member of an excellent community (albeit for 10 months). 60k in loans later, I still don't regret it, but again, that's a personal choice and I don't expect others to agree.

 

With that said, I will be the 50000th person on this thread to say GO VISIT THE SCHOOLS! Not just the ones you're considering but wherever you are admitted. I visited all the schools I was admitted to, and that made ALL the difference. Also, be assured that at this point, you can't make a terrible decision. Wherever you go, you'll be okay in the end.

[Vulpix]

10 hours ago, nicolemae said:

Harvard!

 

Reasons:

1. I graduated EdM from Harvard. I'm unashamedly biased 

2. As a first-gen college student/poc, I felt so much more..."welcomed" by the Harvard community than any other program I visited. For me personally, that mattered -- I turned down grant-based funding from two schools to go to a place where I knew I'll be happier, while growing meaningfully as a person and as a member of an excellent community (albeit for 10 months). 60k in loans later, I still don't regret it, but again, that's a personal choice and I don't expect others to agree.

 

With that said, I will be the 50000th person on this thread to say GO VISIT THE SCHOOLS! Not just the ones you're considering but wherever you are admitted. I visited all the schools I was admitted to, and that made ALL the difference. Also, be assured that at this point, you can't make a terrible decision. Wherever you go, you'll be okay in the end.

And, most importantly, do you and EVERYONE YOU KNOW have a job immediately after graduating  ?   But seriously, I think this is the biggest thing I'm getting at---will Harvard make it immeasurably easier for me to get jobs?  (I imagine it helps to get *interviews*, and then it of course comes down to the individual.)

[Neist]

Of course I would. They'd have to dazzle me to make the absurd cost of living worth it.

Now, if it was the only decent school I was accepted into, that's an entirely different matter.

[Gvh]

When I was applying for Masters studies (in Education, too!), I was admitted to Penn, Harvard and Columbia. Columbia ended up not leaving a great impression on me when I visited, and also offered $0 in grant or assistance, but I loved Penn and Harvard both of which offered me similar grant/scholarship money. Ultimately, I decided on Harvard and I'm so happy I did. Now, I can't say what my life would have been like had I gone to Penn, but all I can say that my life completely changed when at Harvard, and hasn't been the same since (in a good way!). 

I agree with the others that at this point, I'm sure you'd get to wherever you need to be with Penn. But, there is something about Harvard -- the resources, the people, the opportunity (such as the ability to work and take classes at MIT) -- that opens up that extra door. Just my $0.02.

 

PS: FWIW, I got an internship while still in school that ended up hiring me when I graduated. When I quit that, I found another job within a month. I don't know anyone from my program who had issues finding work upon graduation.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Gvh

[nm16]

13 hours ago, Heather1011 said:

And, most importantly, do you and EVERYONE YOU KNOW have a job immediately after graduating  ?   But seriously, I think this is the biggest thing I'm getting at---will Harvard make it immeasurably easier for me to get jobs?  (I imagine it helps to get *interviews*, and then it of course comes down to the individual.)

Speaking of which, the career services people at HGSE are fantastic at their jobs. I can't explain how well-connected they are -- plus, they help you prepare for your job search starting the summer before you enroll at Harvard; it's kind of wild! 

Edited January 20, 2016 by nicolemae
forgot a word there!

[Vulpix]

1 hour ago, Gvh said:

When I was applying for Masters studies (in Education, too!), I was admitted to Penn, Harvard and Columbia. Columbia ended up not leaving a great impression on me when I visited, and also offered $0 in grant or assistance, but I loved Penn and Harvard both of which offered me similar grant/scholarship money. Ultimately, I decided on Harvard and I'm so happy I did. Now, I can't say what my life would have been like had I gone to Penn, but all I can say that my life completely changed when at Harvard, and hasn't been the same since (in a good way!). 

I agree with the others that at this point, I'm sure you'd get to wherever you need to be with Penn. But, there is something about Harvard -- the resources, the people, the opportunity (such as the ability to work and take classes at MIT) -- that opens up that extra door. Just my $0.02.

 

PS: FWIW, I got an internship while still in school that ended up hiring me when I graduated. When I quit that, I found another job within a month. I don't know anyone from my program who had issues finding work upon graduation.

Thanks for your insight!  It doesn't hurt that you went through the exact same choice.

[Vulpix]

Just now, nicolemae said:

Speaking of which, the career services people at HGSE are fantastic at their jobs. I can't explain how well-connected they are -- they help you prepare for your job search starting the summer before you enroll at Harvard; it's kind of wild! 

That's amazing!

[Gvh]

1 minute ago, nicolemae said:

Speaking of which, the career services people at HGSE are fantastic at their jobs. I can't explain how well-connected they are -- plus, they help you prepare for your job search starting the summer before you enroll at Harvard; it's kind of wild! 

I can vouch for this too, @Heather1011. They really are great. I went to them a few times and found the experience very helpful!

[Vulpix]

Just now, Gvh said:

I can vouch for this too, @Heather1011. They really are great. I went to them a few times and found the experience very helpful!

This is very encouraging---I need all the help I can get!  Coming from a teaching background, my job searches have been very independent but straightforward---you just apply to schools to teach the subject you teach, it's not all that complex.  But going into a field of nonprofits, international/national government agencies, UN agencies, etc, will be very overwhelming and I don't know where to start!  I will need this kind of support.  I really like the small cohort/community feel that Penn has, but I'm sure Harvard's cohorts also have strong sense of community.

 

[Gvh]

1 minute ago, Heather1011 said:

This is very encouraging---I need all the help I can get!  Coming from a teaching background, my job searches have been very independent but straightforward---you just apply to schools to teach the subject you teach, it's not all that complex.  But going into a field of nonprofits, international/national government agencies, UN agencies, etc, will be very overwhelming and I don't know where to start!  I will need this kind of support.  I really like the small cohort/community feel that Penn has, but I'm sure Harvard's cohorts also have strong sense of community.

 

The incoming masters class each year at HGSE is around 700 among the 13 (14?, I can't remember) different masters cohorts/divisions. So it is a big group all together, HOWEVER I found that everyone found their niche, either within their own cohort or within some other community/network/group. It can be overwhelming at the beginning, but it was pretty life-changing and inspiring to meet so many like-minded and awesome people doing incredible things. If you end up attending, I recommend living on campus, because you got even more of that community feel!  I feel like I made some lifelong friends in the program!

[Vulpix]

1 hour ago, Gvh said:

The incoming masters class each year at HGSE is around 700 among the 13 (14?, I can't remember) different masters cohorts/divisions. So it is a big group all together, HOWEVER I found that everyone found their niche, either within their own cohort or within some other community/network/group. It can be overwhelming at the beginning, but it was pretty life-changing and inspiring to meet so many like-minded and awesome people doing incredible things. If you end up attending, I recommend living on campus, because you got even more of that community feel!  I feel like I made some lifelong friends in the program!

Thanks!  Although financially, I feel like living on campus is usually way more expensive (at Cronkhite?)

[Gvh]

16 minutes ago, Heather1011 said:

Thanks!  Although financially, I feel like living on campus is usually way more expensive (at Cronkhite?)

Yeah I lived at Cronkhite. I mean, I think the rent was about 900/month, which is not particularly expensive for Cambridge. Plus you get a meal plan 5 days a week. I don't remember the exact details of the costs and plans but basically it didn't really turn out to be all that much more than living in your own place, unless you want to live way out there, which I don't recommend. It was worth it for me, especially being so close to classes and all my friends. Ultimately it's personal choice, but definitely explore all options  

[Vulpix]

1 minute ago, Gvh said:

Yeah I lived at Cronkhite. I mean, I think the rent was about 900/month, which is not particularly expensive for Cambridge. Plus you get a meal plan 5 days a week. I don't remember the exact details of the costs and plans but basically it didn't really turn out to be all that much more than living in your own place, unless you want to live way out there, which I don't recommend. It was worth it for me, especially being so close to classes and all my friends. Ultimately it's personal choice, but definitely explore all options  

Is it hard to get student housing or is there enough space for everyone?

[Gvh]

1 minute ago, Heather1011 said:

Is it hard to get student housing or is there enough space for everyone?

I applied early on and didn't have a problem. I know there is some sort of preference system where people who live furthest away get dibs on student housing before say, Massachusetts residents. But I don't know more than that. Some people got put into the GSAS housing across the yard, which I heard wasn't as nice but it's still doable. Overall, from my experience most people who wanted student housing could get it, but don't quote me on that!