Language Differences

[Cheshire_Cat]

Ok, so I'm not an international student,  in fact, I'm going to school in my home state. However,  everyone in my cohort, and two of the three people in the cohort above me are all internationals from the same region, and all speak the same first language (Which is not a language I know or could even pick up easily.)  Anyways,  they all end up talking together in their first language and I feel left out.  And I have always been taught that it is rude.  I understand that it is easier for them, but it still makes me uncomfortable.   Is there any way to address this nicely with them?

[PoliticalOrder]

" And I have always been taught that it is rude. "

It's not.

There's not much you can do really...people are going to want to speak their first language. But yes, you could ask them when you are around to speak in English...but that doesn't necessarily mean they will change or want to change. 

[TakeruK]

This is a tricky situation and I know it's a common topic of debate at my school and other schools too. I'll just present my opinions:

1. If you are uncomfortable about something, you should certainly express your discomfort. However, simply doing so doesn't mean that other people are obligated to change their actions. Also, I would ask you to first seriously reflect on exactly what is making you uncomfortable. If it's because you're being left out, then present it that way, instead of saying "I don't want you to speak your language around me"

2. I agree with PoliticalOrder---I don't know why you say it's "rude" to speak another language around someone who doesn't understand it. It's not rude. It's everyone's right to speak whatever language they want. 

3. I do think that not including you is not very nice though. But I don't think you should think of this as a language issue. Because even if they were all speaking English, a group of people can still bully and exclude another person. 

4. This is becoming a big debate in my hometown too---about 80% of people living there do not speak English as their first language (this is not to say that they don't speak English, but instead to say that they all know another language well). In some areas of town, there are store signs and businesses operating almost solely in another language. Some people who only speak English are getting upset because they don't understand the store signs. But I don't agree with them. I don't think a person has a right to always be in a place where they understand everything around them. I think it's a very privileged position to have, and I don't think it's right for an English speaking person to always be able to understand everything they see and everyone they interact with.

5. Some labs/groups here have "language rules" where you can only speak English in the lab. I disagree with these rules strongly but I have no power to do anything about it. I think it is important, for things like safety and science communication that all scientific conversations (or e.g. while doing an experiment) is in a language where everyone who needs know what's going can understand. But if you're in the lab, just joking around with a friend, or having a casual conversation, I don't think there should be language rules.

6. Finally, I think it's really important to think about it from the other person's point of view. In my department, there is a large group of international students that primarily speak Mandarin (there's also a sizable French speaking group too). I don't speak Mandarin. For most department socials, all language groups mix relatively well. When there was a lot of debate on campus recently about language issues like this, I asked some of my Mandarin speaking friends what they think. 

Their answer was profound (to me anyways). They say that they feel stunted or limited when speaking English. To them, they learned it growing up because it was the language of science, the language of work. So, they are fluent and gladly speak English for scientific communication, but they cannot properly express themselves in English. They say it's a lot more difficult for them to express sympathy for their friends, express their emotions, make jokes, and basically all of the other things people use language for other than strict communication. When I realised this was when I realised that it is wrong to require someone to only speak a certain language. In my opinion, doing so limits their ability to be themselves, and I would never want to do that. It's not right for me to ask someone to do this just because I want to know what they are saying.

[ExponentialDecay]

3 hours ago, PoliticalOrder said:

" And I have always been taught that it is rude. "

It's not.

Actually, it is rude to speak a language that a person participating in your conversation cannot understand, for the same reason that it is rude to whisper in such instances. 

OP, it's hard not to switch to speaking your native language with another native speaker, even if you're fluent in the working language of the community you're in. Unless you've been "a stranger in a strange land", it's hard to understand how profound a connection a shared language can forge between two people who have approximately just met. For many people, their native language is associated with home, so speaking it can make one feel less homesick. Many people simply do it automatically. I think you do need to be understanding that, whilst you may be alone in lab or wherever, you have friends and family here and your country/area is familiar to you, whereas your colleagues most likely just have each other and the internet. For most people, the culture shock and adjusting to a new place is quite stressful, so of course they reach out to familiar things. You probably won't become part of the in group, but as you spend more time around each other, the rough edges will soften and your communication will improve.

As for practical advice, it's unclear whether this is happening when you're participating in the conversation/working together, or if people prefer to speak in their own language socially. If the latter, too bad, but it's hardly hurting you so you should take advantage of being a wise local and make some extra-cohort friends. If the former and it's affecting your ability to do your work, it's okay to ask the people to stop and remind them if it happens again. I wouldn't escalate to involving any outside forces unless things get really out of hand.

[TakeruK]

1 hour ago, ExponentialDecay said:

Actually, it is rude to speak a language that a person participating in your conversation cannot understand, for the same reason that it is rude to whisper in such instances. 

 

If there is a conversation with a group of people and then in the middle of that conversation, people switch languages and leave someone out, then yeah, I agree that is rude. But let's say I'm in an office with 4 people and 3 of us speak one language and I decide to start a new conversation with these 2 other people, I don't think it's rude at all to speak in another language with those 2 other people only. Even if I spoke in English, I would still want my conversation to be directed towards those 2 other people only. I would actually say it's rude if the 4th person who just happens to be in the same area joins in without being invited. Here, I'm talking about a directed conversation, not an "open" one where everyone can join in.

Maybe I interpreted the OP description differently because my experience with people enacting "language rules" has left me jaded (for the record, I only speak English fluently). Some people seem to think that if they only know English then automatically every conversation that occurs near them must be in English otherwise it's rude because they are being left out. My stance is that this is an incredibly privileged mindset---the English speaker does not have the right to automatically be included in every conversation that happens near them! But on the other hand, if the conversation does include the English-only speaker (or should include the English-only speaker, e.g. it's a group project and the English-only speaker is part of the group), then yes, 100% agree it is rude to speak in a language that a conversation participant does not understand.

[Cheshire_Cat]

First of all,  I certainly don't think everyone should have to speak English all the time.   I understand where you are coming from, Tak, because that "this is america, speak english" senitiment bothers me too.  

But right now I feel left out.  And it is important because our field is highly relational.  We are supposed to be developing contacts and getting to know one another.  It's awkward when we are sitting, waiting for a professor in class, and they are all talking to each other and I can't even begin to join a conversation because they are all speaking a different language.  I dont want to interject myself in a private conversation, but these are obviously open to everyone who understands their language, which happens to be everyone else in the room.   Sometimes they are even discussing a paper we just read (They have to use some English words, so I know what they are talking about. ) and I can't join in there either.  Or, they are waiting for the train with me, and one of them specifically decided to wait for the next train because I had to wait for it, and the other addresses her in the other language.   Or I'll be having a conversation with one of them, and someone else will interrupt in a different language. I think these things are rude.   I mean, tbh, my cohort is usually very sensitive about making me feel included, but there are more people who speak their language in our research community than those who have English as a first language, and when everyone else gets together with them and they all start talking in a different language is usually when I feel left out.

I also think it is rude to address two out of three people in a room in a different language because people who are self conscious will think you are talking about them.

 I have always lived in a multicultural world, and these people are a lot nicer and more inviting than some of the other cultures around that do speak English. But having been stabbed squarely in the back in my masters program by a group when I was the only one not from their culture has made me very sensitive to being an outsider. I think everyone gives Americans too much credit for feeling like they belong.  I'm a small town girl from a very conservative background who is living in a big city where no one understands my upbringing.   At least internationals can be international together. 

[TakeruK]

Not that you need my validation but I do agree with you that the actions you're describing are rude! I mean, if you take away the different language aspect, this would still be rude behaviour even if it was all in English! Sorry that you have to deal with this  I don't really know what to suggest, other than to let them know how you feel. 

[ExponentialDecay]

@TakeruK Eh, to be honest, the office thing, it's situational.

Occasionally having conversations, private or otherwise, with people in your native language who work in the same office is unavoidable. It becomes problematic when people switch to another language permanently, thereby excluding the person who doesn't speak the language like 99% of the time. I'm sure most people don't even do it intentionally, and certainly don't mean anything malicious by it, it's just a lack of self-awareness. To my mind, if you're colleagues sharing an office space, that's a situation where most conversations should be inclusive of one another, on a politeness level, because otherwise it becomes hostile.

8 hours ago, Cheshire_Cat said:

I'm a small town girl from a very conservative background who is living in a big city where no one understands my upbringing.   At least internationals can be international together. 

While I'm getting out my smallest violin, let me tell you about how I'm living in a big city where nobody understands my language, my culture, my visa issues, and how I avoid telling people where I'm from because they immediately make gross assumptions about my character and beliefs and are confused that I can speak English. I literally dread showing my ID when I go to bars.

It's really fucking gross of you to group internationals together like that. People outside America aren't all the same. As somebody from a country that doesn't send commanding numbers of students abroad, I am in your exact situation, except I'm also a foreigner and my family lives an ocean away. Outside of bitching about border patrol, I have nothing in common with other internationals per se. 

At least you can be American with the 300 million Americans who live in America. You should try it sometime.

[TakeruK]

5 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said:

@TakeruK Eh, to be honest, the office thing, it's situational.

Occasionally having conversations, private or otherwise, with people in your native language who work in the same office is unavoidable. It becomes problematic when people switch to another language permanently, thereby excluding the person who doesn't speak the language like 99% of the time. I'm sure most people don't even do it intentionally, and certainly don't mean anything malicious by it, it's just a lack of self-awareness. To my mind, if you're colleagues sharing an office space, that's a situation where most conversations should be inclusive of one another, on a politeness level, because otherwise it becomes hostile.

You're right---I'm not thinking of this as an "always" thing, just a sometimes thing. If there are 3 people working together and 2 of them speak in a different language all of the time (or like 99% as you said) then it's not inclusive and that's both rude and unprofessional, in my opinion. I'd describe this as rude behaviour where the language difference is used as a tool to exclude someone. I was thinking of less extreme situations where once in a while, two people want to talk about something in a language where they can express themselves better. Or, maybe a colleague from another office comes in to have a quick chat with their friend---they don't have to include the entire office when they do this.

[spunky]

i know this sounds awful but... have you considered the option that... well... maybe they just don't really care to include you in their conversations and that's it?

i had a similar experience in my undergrad (i went to a small university so my cohort was super small). it was 7 of us (all int'l students, curiously enough) but 6 came from the same background/culture + me. throughout my last semester i was only able to talk to them about some class stuff during class time so i asked a friend of mine from a different major (who shared the same background/language) if i was doing something wrong and she just said "oh, don't take it personally. it's not that they don't like you, they really just don't care about being inclusive." i realized then that this idea of "being inclusive" in conversations, social interactions, etc. can sometimes be a cultural trait that not everybody shares. you may think it's rude, but for other people it's perfectly normal. 

i just gave up on them and started hanging around with other people. maybe just take this as a 'self-growth' moment? you know, getting a little out of your "small town girl from a very conservative background" persona and connect with other people outside your program in different ways?

[random_grad]

the situations you describe are indeed quite rude. as an ESL speaker when I find myself in a situation where a person who speaks my native tongue interrupts my English conversation in that other language, I always respond in English because it upsets me to be involved in such rude behaviour. it may be that your classmates to do understand that this is rude. imo you should try talking about this with your closest acquaintances from that group individually, rather than trying to stop a conversation because from my experience, it just doesn't work to be like "hey, speak English, please? maybe?" - it upsets you, it bothers them, but they keep doing what they do. speaking individually can be more productive if it's people who care about you. once they understand how you feel, at least they might be reluctant to engage in such behaviour.

Edited January 21, 2016 by random_grad

[Cheshire_Cat]

Thanks for the advice everyone.  For the record,  I do have a wonderful group of friends outside of school. I probably go out with them at least a couple of times a week.  I'm small town girl,  not a hermit. This isn't about making close friends. It's about getting along with colleagues and making connections with people that I will probably be working with for the next four to five years. And having people who understand the life of a PhD student. It's important,  and not as easy as it seems. 

[ZeChocMoose]

I would suggest another tactic.  Instead of making a plea for these group conversations to be in English because I don't think that is going to get you what you want, I would instead try to invite a couple of your cohort mates for 1-on-1 outings to get to know them better.  It could simply be coffee, drinks, lunch, attending a school event together, some hobby you know he/she likes, etc.  Basically, if you can have a couple of these "dates" with at least 2-3 cohort mates, you'll get to know them better and might help ease the awkwardness in group situations.  The key point though is they need to be 1-on-1 so you'll mutually get to know each other better.

Another suggestion is that you can try to start another conversation with some of your cohort mates that don't seem to be participating much in the group conversation that you can't understand. Usually when a group becomes a certain size, it's difficult for everyone to be equally engaged so find the people that don't look like they are actively participating and try to engage them in a conversation. This is much easier if you have already had 1-on-1 time with them and you know something about them. One huge caveat is sometimes this works and sometimes this is a huge bust.  If I was going to try this, I would probably say something like "Hey X - did you read that y article?  Wasn't it [insert some adjective]?  Did you get the part about [insert something here]? What did you think about the Z part?" Target the least participatory person in the group conversation and go from there.  If s/he answers back - awesome.  If s/he doesn't engage - I might drop it and try another person on another day.

Good luck!

[St Andrews Lynx]

From personal experience, being proactive in starting conversations helps. Same as how even if you were in an English-only setting some people might not think to include you in their conversations if you didn't indicate that you wanted to chat, or they didn't know you. If they see you as more of a friend perhaps these people will start including you in their conversations as a result of that. 

I've been on the other end of living in a foreign country and learning a foreign language as I went along. It can be kinda embarrassing or nerve-wracking to start talking in a new language that you've not mastered: you worry about making an idiot of yourself, it takes a lot of effort to string together a sentence that you wouldn't even think about constructing if you were speaking in English. And this foreign language was from the same linguistic family as English (so the pronunciation wasn't alien, nor was the grammar). If I was trying to learn Mandarin or Korean I imagine it would be a serious struggle. I'm sympathetic to people who are learning a new language in a foreign country, and understand why they'd find it a whole lot easier to speak in their native tongue. 

[Cheshire_Cat]

Thanks guys. I have begun to develop 1 on 1 relationships with some of them, and it helps.  Large groups of people have always intimidated me, "large" meaning more than six people,  and being an obvious outsider to those groups makes it worse.  But actually,  1 on 1, they are more proactive and willing to introduce themselves and talk to me than people from other regions.