Advice for Visiting Weekends

[Hopeful57]

Hey Everyone!

I was wondering if anyone had knowledge / advice about visitation weekends. What to wear? What to ask? What to look out for? I know a lot of us are going to have some pretty difficult choices to make so anything to help narrow it down would be helpful. Making a good impression wouldn't hurt either. 

[twinsora]

I have the same question! 

[reasonablepie]

1) Don't worry too much about making a good impression! It's about you and your decision now, and schools will be putting in a lot of effort to make a good impression on you. Come September, no one will remember much of what you said/did/wore at visit weekend, so just focus on getting the information you want. I was really stressed about this and turns out it didn't matter in the least.

2) Think carefully in advance about what really matters to you in your decision; this will determine what you need to ask. It could be you mainly care about how you get along with people on a personal level, or about the kind of research students are doing at this department, or about the kinds of methods training you will get, or about the quality of life in that place, or any number of other things. All of these are valid concerns, and they will matter to different extents to different people. Make a list in advance, and focus on getting the information most important to you.

3) Make sure you talk to a good mix of people. Students in both lower and upper years, professors ranging from new APs to the most senior scholars, the admin people for practical stuff, etc. Don't put too much weight onto any particular opinion, instead look for patterns of things that keep coming up or a general impression you get.

4) Practical stuff: wear something one shade nicer than what you'd wear on a daily basis in this particular department (huge differences between schools, particularly East vs West coast), if you're hosted by a grad student be a good guest, get enough sleep because visits are exhausting, plan any practical transport things in advance so you don't have to stress about those (admin people can give you good advice on logistics things if needed, but keep in mind they're busy and you do have google).

5) Don't ignore your gut feeling! You're looking at 5-6 years at this place, whether you'll be happy there is really important. Go to as many as the social events as you have energy for, see if you vibe with the current students and other admits, because they'd be your friends. Get a feel for the department and campus more generally, and see if you feel at home there. We like to worry ourselves a lot about 'objective' measures and how grad school choice will impact our careers, but whether you will have a great or awful experience matters and that depends in large part on whether it feels right for you.

[Hopeful57]

Thanks for the awesome advice, that's extremely helpful!

[joseon4th]

Thanks for the thoughts, especially regarding "making a good impression" versus "trying overly hard to make a false impression."

I have a slightly different question, however you clearly have insight and I'd be curious as to your thoughts. I've received an offer from a top 10, and a top 15- 25. Both programs appeal to me based on location and general/specific fit. Clearly a top 10, is, well, the more "logical choice" at this juncture. I also think the top 10 offers the more ideal location and range of faculty specialties and areas of research focus. Would it still make sense to visit the rank 20-ish, or just the top 10 choice? 

tl;dr: is this just a silly question to ask?

[wb3060]

1 hour ago, joseon4th said:

Thanks for the thoughts, especially regarding "making a good impression" versus "trying overly hard to make a false impression."

I have a slightly different question, however you clearly have insight and I'd be curious as to your thoughts. I've received an offer from a top 10, and a top 15- 25. Both programs appeal to me based on location and general/specific fit. Clearly a top 10, is, well, the more "logical choice" at this juncture. I also think the top 10 offers the more ideal location and range of faculty specialties and areas of research focus. Would it still make sense to visit the rank 20-ish, or just the top 10 choice? 

tl;dr: is this just a silly question to ask?

To put in my two cents for this, I would say absolutely visit both if you are able to (if you don't have time/money constraints). Some things you can only learn by going and feeling out the faculty/current students. Since you are going to be spending the next 5+ years of your life at whichever program, you want to make sure it is a really good fit for you (in more ways than just stats and research interests). See if faculty seem friendly and helpful (especially potential advisor). See if grad students seem happy in the program, have good relationships with their advisors. Take the opportunity to ask any questions you have. I know people who have changed their minds dramatically after going to a few of these visiting weekends. 

But if you think there is zero chance you will go to the other one, save yourself the trip. 

Edited February 6, 2016 by wb3060

[cy92]

1 hour ago, joseon4th said:

Thanks for the thoughts, especially regarding "making a good impression" versus "trying overly hard to make a false impression."

I have a slightly different question, however you clearly have insight and I'd be curious as to your thoughts. I've received an offer from a top 10, and a top 15- 25. Both programs appeal to me based on location and general/specific fit. Clearly a top 10, is, well, the more "logical choice" at this juncture. I also think the top 10 offers the more ideal location and range of faculty specialties and areas of research focus. Would it still make sense to visit the rank 20-ish, or just the top 10 choice? 

tl;dr: is this just a silly question to ask?

A piece of advice I received from one of my professors when I was choosing a school: visit even if you think you're definitely going somewhere else. There's the obvious idea that you might change your mind when you see places in person (you might not get along well with the faculty at one school, and be surprised by the fit with faculty at the other when you actually visit them). He suggested, however, that the real reason to visit every school is that grad school is tough, and at some point you'll probably get discouraged and wonder if you should have gone to school X instead. When that happens, you will be able to think back to your visit weekends and remember that school X is not the perfect place you're now imagining it to be. In other words, it's easier to get rid of nagging "the grass is always greener on the other side" feelings when you've seen the other side.

(of course, if the school is not covering your travel expenses, it's a different story, but I would imagine everyone in that ranking group would)

[reasonablepie]

2 hours ago, joseon4th said:

Thanks for the thoughts, especially regarding "making a good impression" versus "trying overly hard to make a false impression."

I have a slightly different question, however you clearly have insight and I'd be curious as to your thoughts. I've received an offer from a top 10, and a top 15- 25. Both programs appeal to me based on location and general/specific fit. Clearly a top 10, is, well, the more "logical choice" at this juncture. I also think the top 10 offers the more ideal location and range of faculty specialties and areas of research focus. Would it still make sense to visit the rank 20-ish, or just the top 10 choice? 

tl;dr: is this just a silly question to ask?

I completely agree with what both wb3060 and cy92 said - might as well visit, unless you have a good reason not to. If there's even a small chance you'll choose the second school, it's worth putting in the effort considering how important this decision is. And even if that chance is effectively zero, the down the road what-ifs can be pretty terrible. Plus, a visit is a chance to both meet other students and other professors, which is never a bad thing. That said, if the financial costs are a real strain or you have time limitations or you just feel really sure, it's also fine not to go. I think a lot of grad student types have a tendency to want to do absolutely everything even when it hurts us, and sometimes it's okay to not do something.

[joseon4th]

1 minute ago, reasonablepie said:

I completely agree with what both wb3060 and cy92 said - might as well visit, unless you have a good reason not to. If there's even a small chance you'll choose the second school, it's worth putting in the effort considering how important this decision is. And even if that chance is effectively zero, the down the road what-ifs can be pretty terrible. Plus, a visit is a chance to both meet other students and other professors, which is never a bad thing. That said, if the financial costs are a real strain or you have time limitations or you just feel really sure, it's also fine not to go. I think a lot of grad student types have a tendency to want to do absolutely everything even when it hurts us, and sometimes it's okay to not do something.

wb3060 and y92 -- thank you so much for your comments. At this point I plan to visit both. They are in a similar geographic area (at least the same coast) and both appeal in distinct ways. I certainly have a strong preference at this point for the higher ranked program, but I completely understand the idea of "greener on the other side" being a constant nag. Felt it in undergrad, and to an extent at my current master's program.

reasonablepie - This might have been the most discerning comment I've seen on grad cafe for a long time. "I think a lot of grad student types have a tendency to want to do absolutely everything even when it hurts us, and sometimes it's okay to not do something." I will be weighing the funding, visitation costs/stipends provided, as well as correspondence with current students that I plan to reach out to. When I have a fuller picture of each program, I'll consider going to one or both at that point. 

All, thanks for making this process that much more manageable. 

 

 

 

 

[IndEnth]

I'm in a similar position, with a strong preference for a high-rankinh school but good options with other schools as well. I plan on visiting them all simply because the crowd in my field of interest isn't that large, and it can't hurt to network with the people that I'll keep meeting at conferences and events for the next couple of years. As all the schools pay for travel expenses and are flexible to accommodate my international travel, I feel the benefits outweigh the costs here.

[alphazeta]

Don't worry too much about making a good impression.  You're not really trying to sell yourself to them (you're already in).  That said, I've seen some people make a disastrously bad impression that followed them around for years in the program.  Most of the time, this is the result of either getting extremely drunk or being extremely arrogant.  Don't do those things.  Unless you do one of these things, most people will not remember you.

What to wear? I'd go business casual.  It doesn't really matter, though.  Don't look like a slob.

General advice:

1) Like reasonablepie said, talk to a good mix of people.  It's easy to just talk to the first/second year grad students and even the other prospectives.  There's value in this, but these are the people with the narrowest perspective.  Talk to the older grad students and, of course, the faculty.

2) Ask about money.  It may be uncomfortable, but it's important information. At most departments, your stipend is low but there are opportunities to supplement it with RA work or additional TAing.  The actual availability of such money varies considerably both within (i.e., subfield to subfield) and across departments.  Don't just bank on being able to get RA/TA money that isn't guaranteed.

3) Ask for summer funding.  At most departments, baseline stipend is non-negotiable.  If you have other options, though, you may be able to get some amount of guaranteed summer funding by asking politely.  Don't treat this like you're buying a used car.  Instead, talk to your POI or the DGS and just ask politely if there's any way to get some guaranteed summer/RA/whatever funding.

4) Ask about conference travel funding.  Is there money for this? How much? Is it guaranteed? If it isn't, are people having difficulty funding travel to APSA, Midwest, ISA, etc.?

5) Find out about quality of life and cost of living.  Where do other grad students live? Are they happy? What about grad student housing? What are the good places to live? Is there a waitlist that you need to sign up for after accepting the offer?

6) Ask everyone you talk to who's on their committee.  Ask them why those people.  This is a soft way to find out if certain faculty are bad advisors, if the department has rivalries, etc.

7) I think prospectives tend to obsess over faculty.  Faculty are just one part of a department.  You spend far more time with your peers than with faculty and, in all honesty, you generally learn more from the peers than from your advisors.  Beyond people, resources matter.  It makes a big difference to have easy access to research money, to have low teaching commitments, etc.  Don't myopically focus on faculty.

 

 

[Hopeful57]

That was awesome. Thank you so much!

[abed]

I posted on the Decisions forum asking for advice on what kinds of questions to ask professors and current grad students and got some useful advice there; linking here in case you find this useful as well!

 

Edited February 9, 2016 by abed

[brent09]

Just adding to the wonderful advice above:

1. Do not be shy. If your likely advisor is close to retirement, confirm with him/her that s/he isn't leaving. Ask potential advisors about their placements, not just the department's placements. Ask about mentorship style, coauthorship preferences, upcoming leaves. These may seem rude, but this is your next half-decade and potentially your career. Leave nothing to chance.

2. There will probably be free alcohol. Have fun, but don't go nuts. You will be remembered, and this is a small discipline.

3. Do not be an ass. Do not brag about admissions, don't bring up GREs, don't try to show off by asking esoteric questions at graduate student sample research presentations. Do not try to lecture graduate students about DW Nominate scores or how Polity IV measures are flawed. (Yes, that has happened where I attend.) You have been admitted, so any temptation you have to show how smart you are---pause and reconsider.

4. Try to get away for a bit and collect your thoughts. Trust your gut. I went into the visits 95 percent convinced I wanted to go to one department, and totally changed after the visits. I felt at home at one place, and icky at my favorite. Trust that feeling. 

ETA: Even if you don't fancy yourself a methodologist, ask about methods training. Unless you're going into theory (which you should reconsider...), you need solid methods training. Any department that talks about exporting training to other departments, or has methods courses unconvered, should cause some hesitation.

Edited February 10, 2016 by brent09

[terefere]

1 hour ago, brent09 said:

ETA: Even if you don't fancy yourself a methodologist, ask about methods training. Unless you're going into theory (which you should reconsider...), you need solid methods training. Any department that talks about exporting training to other departments, or has methods courses unconvered, should cause some hesitation.

How about formal theory? Does it make sense to rely on whatever the econ department has to offer or is it the same story as with methods training, in your opinion?

[brent09]

I would want an intro-level Game Theory course offered in-department, preferably two. But my impression of formal---not being a formal theorist, mind you---is that there isn't typically a long sequence of formal theory courses in any department. In statistics, there are many methods of inference, many types of models, many algorithmic approaches to estimation; so there are many courses that one might want to take. In formal theory, the method is largely the same even as the models become more complex. (With perhaps the exception of an ABM/computational estimation course?) A couple of formal courses is sufficient to set you on your way. 

[alphazeta]

16 hours ago, terefere said:

How about formal theory? Does it make sense to rely on whatever the econ department has to offer or is it the same story as with methods training, in your opinion?

I would never even consider attending a department without formal training if you want to formal work.  For several reasons:

1) If no game theory is offered in house, this means there's not going to be a formal community.  There's a substantial quantitative community in essentially every PhD-granting political science department in the country.  The same is not true for formal, and having a community is important.

2) There are very high transaction costs to learning game theory in an economics department.  Unlike quantitative methods that are taught as stand-alone tools wherever they're offered, game theory is generally taught as part of a microeconomics sequence in economics departments.  That means sitting through general equilibrium theory and irrelevant substantive content. 

3) Formal theory is a theoretical tool, whose application is intimately connected to the nature of theoretical debates.  This means learning it in the right context is really important.

To be clear, I'm really talking here about offering 1 or 2 formal courses.  It's perfectly reasonable to expect to go to an econ department for some advanced coursework.  

[terefere]

Thanks, this is very helpful!

[puddle]

This may sound small but here was the best thing I did on a visiting weekend:

I went to a lunchtime colloquium. I read the paper ahead of time, I paid attention during the talk, and at the appropriate time I asked a question. Turns out my question was a pretty good one because 2 of the profs I met with later on commented on it. One of those profs is now on my committee -- and our discussion about the paper/my question was the start of that very important academic relationship.

[brent09]

9 hours ago, puddle said:

This may sound small but here was the best thing I did on a visiting weekend:

I went to a lunchtime colloquium. I read the paper ahead of time, I paid attention during the talk, and at the appropriate time I asked a question. Turns out my question was a pretty good one because 2 of the profs I met with later on commented on it. One of those profs is now on my committee -- and our discussion about the paper/my question was the start of that very important academic relationship.

I appreciate this, but the advice makes me nervous. It can easily motivate prospective students to go overboard in the hopes of gaining some advantage over their prospective cohort. Prospective students should not use research presentations as an opportunity to show off. In fact, prospies should not use any aspect of the visit weekend to show off. You have been admitted, and you can lock-down advisors in many better, more effective and more efficient ways. 

Here's my advice:

1. As in my first comment: if you feel compelled to show off, don't.

2. If you have a genuine question, ask away.

3. No matter how big the flaw you see, do not ask 'gotcha' questions. Deflating potential future colleagues won't help you.

4. Do not ask abstruse, technical questions that do not serve to clarify the research. ("Aren't you concerned about heteroskedasticity? What happens if you fit the model with random effects instead of fixed effects? Did you consider using probit instead of logit? [Yes, that happened once.])

5. If you have ideas based off the presentation, write them down and talk them over with potential advisors during your one-on-ones or at social events that weekend. That gives you an opportunity to generate ideas, get to know faculty and build relationships. 

Good, thoughtful questions are great. I'm not advising anyone to be silent. But keep in mind that these people are your future colleagues (whether you attend the current department or not). Being a show-off almost never works out. Having one-on-one conversations with advisors will serve you better than asking brilliant questions during the visit weekend research presentations.

[puddle]

On 2/12/2016 at 10:15 AM, brent09 said:

I appreciate this, but the advice makes me nervous. It can easily motivate prospective students to go overboard in the hopes of gaining some advantage over their prospective cohort.

I absolutely agree with this. I think you should begin the way you mean to proceed. Being a jackass is certainly no way to get along in grad school. In my case the question was an actual question -- not a point made with a question mark at the end. Genuine curiosity should always be encouraged :D.

[wb3060]

How should we prepare for one-on-one meetings with professors on visitation weekends (note not just potential advisor but multiple faculty)? I would imagine more focus on their research and relevance to our own, but I'd like to get some opinions. 

[elw]

20 minutes ago, wb3060 said:

How should we prepare for one-on-one meetings with professors on visitation weekends (note not just potential advisor but multiple faculty)? I would imagine more focus on their research and relevance to our own, but I'd like to get some opinions. 

Depends entirely on the individuals. Could be mostly about their research, or yours, or the program, city, etc. Safe to read up on a few of their recent publications to get a notion of what they've been working on. 

[alphazeta]

20 hours ago, wb3060 said:

How should we prepare for one-on-one meetings with professors on visitation weekends (note not just potential advisor but multiple faculty)? I would imagine more focus on their research and relevance to our own, but I'd like to get some opinions. 

I want to return to what several of us have said above (and what I think is honestly the most important point in this thread): Do not worry about trying to impress people.  You're already in.  They're sold.  Now it's their turn to sell you.  It's not really even necessary to "prepare" for these meetings.

You'll probably want to ask what people are working on (and this is useful information to have), but reading recent publications won't really do much for that conversation.  Just ask about it and then listen to the answer.  If it seems appropriate, ask about opportunities for collaboration (not in the sense of "hire me now as your RA" though).

Be prepared to talk about your interests in a general way.  You're not being quizzed  - you don't need to be impressive, but sharing your general research interests will help faculty POIs tell you about relevant resources, etc.

Ask about training, especially methods training, as appropriate.  Feel free to ask about culture.  With potential advisors, feel free to ask if they have any plans to leave in the foreseeable future.

These are casual conversations.  In general, expect the faculty member to do the vast majority of the talking but make sure to ask any questions you need answered.

[puddle]

21 hours ago, alphazeta said:

I want to return to what several of us have said above (and what I think is honestly the most important point in this thread): Do not worry about trying to impress people.  You're already in.  They're sold.  Now it's their turn to sell you.  It's not really even necessary to "prepare" for these meetings.

You'll probably want to ask what people are working on (and this is useful information to have), but reading recent publications won't really do much for that conversation.  Just ask about it and then listen to the answer.  If it seems appropriate, ask about opportunities for collaboration (not in the sense of "hire me now as your RA" though).

Be prepared to talk about your interests in a general way.  You're not being quizzed  - you don't need to be impressive, but sharing your general research interests will help faculty POIs tell you about relevant resources, etc.

Ask about training, especially methods training, as appropriate.  Feel free to ask about culture.  With potential advisors, feel free to ask if they have any plans to leave in the foreseeable future.

These are casual conversations.  In general, expect the faculty member to do the vast majority of the talking but make sure to ask any questions you need answered.

Unless you are meeting with Stathis Kalyvas who will quiz you. Nobody expects the Greek Inquisition.