Prestige vs. practicality???

[NeuroBatman]

So I've been admitted to three Ph.D. programs in the area of Cognitive Science/Neuroscience--Dartmouth, Arizona State and the U of Georgia.  I'm having a hard time deciding where to go.  On the one hand, Dartmouth is Dartmouth and has a fantastic cognitive neuroscience program; however, during my visit I did not get the best impression of the relationships between departments and the students and profs were not nearly as friendly as they were at other programs.  Conversely, the culture at Arizona State is fantastic--I had a great time talking with faculty, grad students and other prospective students.  Finally, the program at UGA is good, the faculty and students are very friendly and they offer a teaching certification, which is great considering that I want to become a skilled lecturer. 

Based on your experiences, what advice would you give me?  Do I go where I feel welcomed and where I see myself fitting in the best, or do I go to the school with the best reputation--the school that will stand out the most on my CV when I go looking for jobs.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!!!  Thanks for reading.

[COGSCI]

I would still go with Dartmouth. Not because of the institution's Ivy league status, but the department is highly regarded in the field of cognitive science. 

Also, I know that Dartmouth provides a generous funding package for their doctoral students so I would definitely compare the financial aspect of each program. 

Above all, research fit is the most important factor to consider! (and $$) 

 

[NeuroBatman]

21 minutes ago, COGSCI said:

I would still go with Dartmouth. Not because of the institution's Ivy league status, but the department is highly regarded in the field of cognitive science. 

Also, I know that Dartmouth provides a generous funding package for their doctoral students so I would definitely compare the financial aspect of each program. 

Above all, research fit is the most important factor to consider! (and $$) 

 

Thanks for the response!  I'm not questioning what you said, but I'm curious as to where you got the info about Dartmouth being 'highly regarded in the field of cognitive science.'  I know it's a great program, but can't find any rankings, etc for cog sci programs.  The ones I have found for Psych departments as a whole or Cognitive Psych programs, have Dartmouth ranked in the middle of the pack--e.g. http://psychology-programs.startclass.com/d/b/Cognitive, http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-humanities-schools/psychology-rankings.  In fact, those lists have ASU ranked higher.  It may be that I'm missing something, so please let me know where you got this info or if it's just something that you know based on the reputations of researchers, etc. 

[rising_star]

I would consider the money, the atmosphere of the department, and the weather. Assuming the funding packages are the same (as in, could afford you the same standard of living in each city), I'd focus on weather and location. I hate snow and Tempe is too hot for me in the summer, so I'd probably choose UGA based on weather. Also, Hanover, NH is way more rural than Tempe, AZ or Athens, GA. I like small towns but Hanover is way too small for me.

[svent]

I say go to ASU or UGA. If you're basing on weather, well Phoenix gets hotter, but GA has the humidity. Depends if you prefer sweating by the time you get to your car or feeling like you're standing underneath a giant blow dryer. If you go by reputation and are unhappy, you won't do as well as you could ("well" to be interpreted as you see fit) and the name won't help you too much. Unless you're absolutely set on being a professor at a top school and no other career path will do. But in that case you probably shouldn't have applied to ASU or UGA anyway.

[COGSCI]

18 hours ago, justinhayes1982 said:

Thanks for the response!  I'm not questioning what you said, but I'm curious as to where you got the info about Dartmouth being 'highly regarded in the field of cognitive science.'  I know it's a great program, but can't find any rankings, etc for cog sci programs.  The ones I have found for Psych departments as a whole or Cognitive Psych programs, have Dartmouth ranked in the middle of the pack--e.g. http://psychology-programs.startclass.com/d/b/Cognitive, http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-humanities-schools/psychology-rankings.  In fact, those lists have ASU ranked higher.  It may be that I'm missing something, so please let me know where you got this info or if it's just something that you know based on the reputations of researchers, etc. 

I would not trust the ranking stuffs online. The first link that you provided does not even list MIT as one of their top 10 institutions, their cognitive science program is one of the best in the world. Also, I find it troubling to see UCSD ranked lower than Iowa.

As for US news rankings, Dartmouth would be ranked lower because the ranking system is looking at each institution's strength in psychology in general. Dartmouth has a strong background in neuro and cognitive psychology but it does not have a strong background in social or health psychology. This could be a good thing if you are only looking into do neuro psyc research. However, if you want to take a multidisciplinary approach, Dartmouth is probably not a suitable school for you. Since the institution is very small, it actually gets ranked pretty poorly when it comes to overall ranking each year. I guess this would be something that you would also consider.

I focused my undergrad studies in cognitive psychology and that's why I did some research on Dartmouth, I ended up staying in Canada for my graduate training though. This is definitely a great dilemma to have because you have a CHOICE  Congrats!

[Vulpix]

This is off topic but I am seriously shocked (not just on this thread, but it's come up here) as to how many people actually make decisions based on weather, or strongly lean one place based on weather.  I think that's a valid concern if you're going to study in Siberia vs. equatorial Africa in the summer, but considering this is an important life decision based on your academic and job pursuits, I just really can't believe how seriously people take climate.  Maine vs. Florida, maybe, but not when your future and program/research opportunities are at hand.  

I don't want to be dismissive of people's personalities or devalue what's most important to them, I'm just surprised because I rarely hear people talk about that as a deciding factor (at least people who are taking their academic pursuits seriously, as we all are).  I definitely feel the effects of seasonal depression during dark winters, so I do understand on some level.

[HermoineG]

I would select Dartmouth. You do get a feel of the department during your interview. But I think you can still develop some great working relationships/friendships if you consider it as an important factor. I think, if you are nice to people, people will be nice to you. I would definitely select a prestigious program with better learning resources over 'friendly programs'. 

[rising_star]

1 hour ago, Heather1011 said:

This is off topic but I am seriously shocked (not just on this thread, but it's come up here) as to how many people actually make decisions based on weather, or strongly lean one place based on weather.  I think that's a valid concern if you're going to study in Siberia vs. equatorial Africa in the summer, but considering this is an important life decision based on your academic and job pursuits, I just really can't believe how seriously people take climate.  Maine vs. Florida, maybe, but not when your future and program/research opportunities are at hand.  

I am an academic. I also know what does and does not make me happy. If given a choice, I know I would be (and have been) less productive academically in places where I don't like the weather because the weather makes me not want to do anything (work, read for pleasure, exercise, etc.). I don't think there's anything wrong with considering your mental well-being when choosing a program. Would you choose to work with an advisor who will berate you for small mistakes if that person is also a top advisor at an excellent program? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on your ability to deal with constant belittling behavior. To me, weather is no different. If it affects your mental state, then it's a factor when considering what program to attend, what jobs to apply for, where to move for work, etc. But, thanks for saying that I can't be a serious academic and care about the weather. You sound like a certain dissertation committee member of mine, whose advice I ignored when deciding how to go on the job market.

[ashiepoo72]

FWIW, I think department culture is hugely important. If the department has a douchey culture, I doubt I'd be able to do my best work, maybe even finish the program. I wouldn't want to hate the next 5-7 years of my life even if I could push through. Maybe prestige is more important to some people, but the way I looked at it was: which program is offering me the resources--financial, intellectual and, yes, even emotional--that I need to do my best work? The tippy top program in my field can't boost my chances of getting a job if I hate being there so much I do crappy work and/or drop out.

I won't pretend rank isn't important, but it sounds like you've gotten into several well-regarded programs--i'd also consider your potential advisers, are they established scholars with multiple publications and generally good reputations in your field? Unless your goal is to teach at an R1 or the placement records at ASU and UGA are abysmal, I don't see why they shouldn't be serious contenders.

[svent]

2 hours ago, Heather1011 said:

This is off topic but I am seriously shocked (not just on this thread, but it's come up here) as to how many people actually make decisions based on weather, or strongly lean one place based on weather.  I think that's a valid concern if you're going to study in Siberia vs. equatorial Africa in the summer, but considering this is an important life decision based on your academic and job pursuits, I just really can't believe how seriously people take climate.  Maine vs. Florida, maybe, but not when your future and program/research opportunities are at hand.  

I don't want to be dismissive of people's personalities or devalue what's most important to them, I'm just surprised because I rarely hear people talk about that as a deciding factor (at least people who are taking their academic pursuits seriously, as we all are).  I definitely feel the effects of seasonal depression during dark winters, so I do understand on some level.

It's important. Not just the weather, but the city as well. Mental health is a very serious issue in grad school, and it's better to go where you can be successful and where you can feel comfortable. It's also important to think about the job prospects. If you're an academic, you're probably not as ready to enter industry as someone who never had any interest in grad school. So if you end up dropping out (which is a very real possibility, as hard as it is to imagine now) with no technical skills or work experience and a limited network (since your network is largely in academia), finding a job can be very challenging, especially from out of state. It's easy to get stuck in the wrong city -- something to think about.

[FeelTheBern]

2 hours ago, Heather1011 said:

This is off topic but I am seriously shocked (not just on this thread, but it's come up here) as to how many people actually make decisions based on weather, or strongly lean one place based on weather.  I think that's a valid concern if you're going to study in Siberia vs. equatorial Africa in the summer, but considering this is an important life decision based on your academic and job pursuits, I just really can't believe how seriously people take climate.  Maine vs. Florida, maybe, but not when your future and program/research opportunities are at hand.  

I don't want to be dismissive of people's personalities or devalue what's most important to them, I'm just surprised because I rarely hear people talk about that as a deciding factor (at least people who are taking their academic pursuits seriously, as we all are).  I definitely feel the effects of seasonal depression during dark winters, so I do understand on some level.

I completely agree! Sometimes you have to make sacrifices in life, and dealing with some not so pretty weather for 5 years of your life can sometimes be a necessary evil in order to attend a program that you think will lead to the most success, not to mention your future happiness!

[Vulpix]

9 hours ago, rising_star said:

I am an academic. I also know what does and does not make me happy. If given a choice, I know I would be (and have been) less productive academically in places where I don't like the weather because the weather makes me not want to do anything (work, read for pleasure, exercise, etc.). I don't think there's anything wrong with considering your mental well-being when choosing a program. Would you choose to work with an advisor who will berate you for small mistakes if that person is also a top advisor at an excellent program? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on your ability to deal with constant belittling behavior. To me, weather is no different. If it affects your mental state, then it's a factor when considering what program to attend, what jobs to apply for, where to move for work, etc. But, thanks for saying that I can't be a serious academic and care about the weather. You sound like a certain dissertation committee member of mine, whose advice I ignored when deciding how to go on the job market.

I seriously did not mean to offend anyone and I FULLY understand the importance of mental health.  I was simply expressing my surprise at how popular weather is as a mental health issue because it hasn't occurred to me (although I do feel seasonal depression, like I said) or my friends as a decision-making factor.  In no way did I mean to imply that you are not a serious academic if you choose based on weather, just that I never thought it would be #1 deciding factor.  Certainly an important factor.

Also, I was thinking of this from the POV of someone going into a one year master's program, in which you can suffer a winter for the sake of other factors.  PhD is definitely a bigger weather decision.

[rising_star]

13 minutes ago, Heather1011 said:

Also, I was thinking of this from the POV of someone going into a one year master's program, in which you can suffer a winter for the sake of other factors.  PhD is definitely a bigger weather decision.

Even for a one year master's, it's an important factor. For example, if you move from Dallas, TX to Madison, WI for a one-year program, you have to consider the cost of buying proper winter apparel (and enough of it to last you through 5-6 months of winter), of purchasing snow or four season tires for your car, etc., when comparing the cost of programs and the stipend amounts being offered. It can be hard to find good, used winter stuff in some places and purchasing four new tires will set you back $600-800 or so. These are very real considerations, at least in my book.

There's also the fact that, in some ways, the PhD program could be the last time you truly get to pick where you live. You can't choose where job openings are or which openings will lead to an offer when you're on the job market. Plus, landing multiple job offers and being able to decide between them is rare compared to having a couple of funded PhD offers to choose between. In that sense, while you can choose where not to apply, if your choice is between applying for everything (AFTDJ in Chronicle forum speak) and unemployment, people generally choose to apply widely to anything that seems even remotely reasonable, weather be damned. To me, that makes being able to choose location for graduate school even more important because the next stop in your career as a VAP, postdoc, teaching fellow, or even TT faculty may not be in a place you really want to be (the stepping stone approach to building one's career). I had far more choices about location and the associated weather as a PhD applicant than I have ever had since.

[NeuroBatman]

Thank you all for the feedback.  I have noticed a trend: several comments have suggested that I can't get a job at an R1 if I attend ASU or UGA.  Is this really the case?  I've seen many faculty members who attended less than stellar state schools with good jobs at R1's.  Certainly, I would concur that if I want to work at an Ivy or Public Ivy, Dartmouth would be my best bet.  But I'm not so sure that attending ASU or UGA would bar me from getting a job at an R1.  But with full disclosure, my goal as of now is to teach at a liberal arts college once I graduate.  This might change, as I'm becoming more and more passionate about research, but who knows.  Do you really think that my job prospects are reduced based on the school I do my Ph.D. at as opposed to my productivity at that school?

[Vulpix]

1 hour ago, rising_star said:

Even for a one year master's, it's an important factor. For example, if you move from Dallas, TX to Madison, WI for a one-year program, you have to consider the cost of buying proper winter apparel (and enough of it to last you through 5-6 months of winter), of purchasing snow or four season tires for your car, etc., when comparing the cost of programs and the stipend amounts being offered. It can be hard to find good, used winter stuff in some places and purchasing four new tires will set you back $600-800 or so. These are very real considerations, at least in my book.

There's also the fact that, in some ways, the PhD program could be the last time you truly get to pick where you live. You can't choose where job openings are or which openings will lead to an offer when you're on the job market. Plus, landing multiple job offers and being able to decide between them is rare compared to having a couple of funded PhD offers to choose between. In that sense, while you can choose where not to apply, if your choice is between applying for everything (AFTDJ in Chronicle forum speak) and unemployment, people generally choose to apply widely to anything that seems even remotely reasonable, weather be damned. To me, that makes being able to choose location for graduate school even more important because the next stop in your career as a VAP, postdoc, teaching fellow, or even TT faculty may not be in a place you really want to be (the stepping stone approach to building one's career). I had far more choices about location and the associated weather as a PhD applicant than I have ever had since.

This makes sense, thanks for explaining.  Cost is definitely a bigger factor depending on where you are leaving and going to.  I wonder, though, if going to a program that you anticipate will land you more job opportunities in the future, but has a poor weather scene, might be the long-term best shot?  Because then you're more hopeful that your job (which would ostensibly be longer-term than your degree program, perhaps) would be in a better climate.  I think this is what I was trying to talk about originally.  Of course, I agree with you that you should take the good weather while you still can, but if where you get the PhD will have a tangible difference in your future prospects, it depends if you want to bank on now or later, I guess.

[juilletmercredi]

This makes sense, thanks for explaining.  Cost is definitely a bigger factor depending on where you are leaving and going to.  I wonder, though, if going to a program that you anticipate will land you more job opportunities in the future, but has a poor weather scene, might be the long-term best shot?  Because then you're more hopeful that your job (which would ostensibly be longer-term than your degree program, perhaps) would be in a better climate.  I think this is what I was trying to talk about originally.  Of course, I agree with you that you should take the good weather while you still can, but if where you get the PhD will have a tangible difference in your future prospects, it depends if you want to bank on now or later, I guess.

That's the way it is in my field, at least. Which is why my old advice was typically to make weather and location a secondary concern. Obviously no one should go anywhere they'd be absolutely miserable 4+ months out of the year. But in my field and many others, graduates of top programs are more competitive and have far more options when they are applying for jobs, as it's generally understood that you can only go down and not up in prestige (this is crude language but you get what I'm getting at). So someone who attends UIUC - a top 5 program in my field - might have to spend 5 years in Urbana in the cold, but their doctoral program is not going to limit them in terms of where they can apply come job market time. Someone who attends Loma Linda might have an excellent five years in southern California but then be unable to find a decent tenure-track job they want to stay in long-term. And let's face it - long-term jobs in desirable locations are very competitive.

BUT...that's the ideal. As I've gotten further along in my career, my thinking has come to lean more along the lines of rising_star's - she has a really good point. So often advice for academic careers involves denying your own needs and desires and pretending that the period of time you spend in graduate school (and a postdoc) isn't Real Life, but it totally is. I went to graduate school in a generally desirable city (New York) and did a postdoc in a small, isolated college town (State College). Five to seven years isn't a short amount of time, really. I loved my time in New York; I made lots of great friends, grew a network, did some exciting and awesome things, and got a chance to live in a city many people dream about living in for the early part of my 20s. On the other hand, personally, I couldn't imagine spending 5+ years in State College. In fact, my experience there, while positive, was one of the reasons I left academia altogether and went into industry. I wanted far more control over where I would live eventually than I would ever have in an academic career, and I didn't want to make a series of lateral moves to get somewhere nice. But some people do want that - or the experience of having lived for 5-7 years somewhere really beautiful gives them the wherewithal to stick out 2-4 years somewhere worse for their postdoc if necessary, or for their first job. I had quite a few friends who actually hated the town but made the most of it because they loved the career that they had built there, and they found ways to make the time bearable. Different strokes.

So, like many things in academia, I think it really depends on your priorities and valuations. There's really not a wrong choice here, because different things are important to different people.

The other thing here is that weather is not the OP's only consideration - there's also departmental fit. Let me say that departmental atmosphere is extremely important to your well-being - and possibly your performance, too. Friendly, helpful profs can make calls on your behalf, help you get publications and generally reach out to mentor and nurture you as a researcher. Top researchers are great and all, but they become functionally useless if they're so far up their own you-know-what that they don't have time for graduate students. Likewise, the doctoral students you go to school with will be your cohort; you will spend inordinate amounts of time with them, at least for the first 2-3 years or so. You will be stuck in the labs with them, potentially studying for comps with them, maybe collaborating on research with them. I love my cohort mates from my doctoral program and I still talk to some of them.

Go where you feel welcomed, for sure.