University of Washington or Boulder

[Tidus]

Hey all,

Was lucky enough to be accepted to Atmospheric / Oceanographic Sciences PhD programs at a few great schools. I've narrowed it down to two, and visited both, but am really struggling to pick a favourite from here. I even made a huge spreadsheet, tried to weigh this up quantitatively and one scored 72.3/100 and another scored 72.7/100.

Some basic personal details: 

• Primary field of interest is polar science, particularly sea ice and climate modelling
• British, with British undergrad and master's
• Likely (~75% chance) looking to stay in academia following the PhD
• Girlfriend will be trying to get a job and move to same location after around a year
• Roughly weighting my decision as 50% academic factors and 50% quality of life factors

Academic factors:

• Washington is slightly better in terms of ranking and has a large number of polar scientists.
• Boulder has a number of research institutes in the area such as NCAR and plenty of polar scientists too.
• Advisers at both places seem great.
• Washington project fits well with my research interests and would be very flexible.
• Boulder project does not yet have confirmed funding and may not until a little into my second year. Is more or less my ideal project.
• More TA requirements at Boulder, as advisers aren't confirmed until end of 1st year.
• While both departments seemed great in this respect, I really liked the culture of the Washington department in terms of student/faculty interaction and from a general social point of view.

Non-academic factors:

• Cost of living is probably fairly similar when compared to stipend, possibly slightly worse in Seattle.
• Boulder has pretty perfect weather (in my opinion). Seattle has weather seems like England, which other than an awesome few months in Summer would be nice to get away from. Particularly seeing as I plan on cycling as my main transport.
• Girlfriend would likely have to get a job in Denver if I went to Boulder, which is a decent commute. However, Seattle commutes are notoriously bad too.
• Both places are great for outdoor activities, but they're closer and drier in Boulder.
• Seattle is a big city, so seems better for nightlife/cultural things. Might have to drive/bus to Denver for some of these otherwise, but really liked Denver.
• Colorado has some awesome Mexican food. Big fan.
• For the sake or argument lets say girlfriend has no preference between place.

 

If you made it through all those points then thanks for reading. Not sure what I'm looking for in terms of advice as I know this is a very personal decision, but any insight on the programs or locations anyone has would be really appreciated.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Tidus

[MastigosAtLarge]

Hi! Welcome to the US.  There's not much that I can offer, but I can confirm your thoughts on Seattle. The temperatures are generally pretty temperate, in my opinion.  But I lived in Sweden, so I don't know how much stock you'll put in that.  It's definitely quite rainy, like England.  But it's a pretty environmentally friendly city.  I don't think we have anywhere like cities in Europe where SO many people bike, but biking is relatively big in Seattle.

Good luck!  I'm sorry, I know that wasn't extremely helpful.

[Tidus]

Nope, definitely helpful to get some more info on the weather and biking. They're two things I'm putting more stock in than most people. I'm in Cambridge now, which is actually super biking heavy by British standards because it's super flat, and old, so not designed for cars. Really like cycling about here when it's warm/dry...and endure it for the other half of the year. Thanks a lot for the reply

[ZrSiO4]

I can't say much on Washington, but I grew up in Boulder and know several people in geo grad school there. Boulder is a fun quirky place (although it's becoming less quirky as it continues to gentrify and yuppie-fy). You will find some of the best mexican food, vegetarian food, beer, etc in and around Boulder. Definitely a foodie paradise. The weather is indeed pretty darn perfect, although it practically never rains, which bothered me at times but if you're sick of rain that's a plus. Boulder's proximity to national research institutes is also pretty sweet. There's NCAR, NOAA, NIST, GSA headquarters, USGS offices, plus everything at CU and bunches I probably forgot. Tons of culture and stuff to do, super environmentally friendly, very very liberal, generally happy place. Almost every possible outdoor activity is practically in your backyard or a very short drive/bike ride away. 

Hmm, some cons on Boulder off the top of my head include:

• Pretty high cost of living. Housing prices and rental rates are pretty steep, but probably more reasonable around the university and further south (I lived in north/central Boulder). 
• entitled yuppies and trust fund babies everywhere (plenty of wonderful people too)
• lots and lots of weed everywhere (could be a pro or a con depending on your perspective...)

I'm happy to answer any other Boulder related questions

Contrats! Good Luck!!!

[Eita1989]

Good programs! Congratulations! My friend have been working in Seattle for almost two years. She likes the weather there even though it rains so often.  As she told me, there are lots of hill roads……so riding a bike will be great fun as a sport.

[Tidus]

Cheers ZrSiO4  Overall sounds like a pretty great endorsement for Boulder. Good to hear there's tons to do there too. A slight worry is 5 years being a long time to spend in a smaller city, but in reality it doesn't sound like I'd be bored. I'll probably message you with a couple of more specific questions about Boulder tomorrow. Nice of you to offer to answer them.

[Tidus]

24 minutes ago, Eita1989 said:

Good programs! Congratulations! My friend have been working in Seattle for almost two years. She likes the weather there even though it rains so often.  As she told me, there are lots of hill roads……so riding a bike will be great fun as a sport.

Thanks! Brisith/Seattle weather is probably better than I give it credit for. I can see why people would prefer it to it being super warm or super cold, it's just a national past-time of ours to complain about weather. The hills will definitely be good for fitness...then again everyone looked super fit and healthy in Boulder, so peer pressure to keep up might provide a similar effect.

[CornUltimatum]

Check out crime rates in the city and near the University. This was also something I am weighing into my decision - especially since I am hoping to bike to most places which makes you a bit more vulnerable. 

Other than that it looks like a tough decision ahead of you. I can't really tell you which way to lean because it just comes down to preference - everyone weighs things differently. I suppose if you're leaning more towards academia you'll want to pursue a strong research project opportunity - the issue here is, is Boulder's isa  better project but not currently funded while Washington's is funded. Some other things to consider: Are these programs academically oriented or industry oriented? Does either program encourage you to pump out several papers to bolster your academic record? What sort of assessments does each program have for their degrees? Typically, how sucessful are your potential advisors' graduates - what do they tend to do? What affiliations and collaborations between other departments does each program have or have had? Networking is important for academia too. 

[Different_Name_111!!!]

I believe UW has an artic science consortium - everyone seems to be well funded. It seems like you have everything covered very well in your bullet points.  

Seattle is a great city to live in, but IMO, it's a feast or famine city.  On typical UW grad student stipends (~$21k), you'll miss out on a lot that the city has to offer (restaurants / night life).  The fantastic thing about being poor in this area is that there are a ton of outdoor activities.  A 45 minute drive will drop you at many fantastic Cascade trailheads.  UW has a "ride in the rain" contest every winter to see which team can rack up the most mileage bike riding to school/work.  Great kayaking and rock climbing in the area & I'm sure locals would be willing to share/help with gear.  

I don't know anything about Boulder - good luck!

[Tidus]

On 16/03/2016 at 4:32 AM, CornUltimatum said:

Check out crime rates in the city and near the University. This was also something I am weighing into my decision - especially since I am hoping to bike to most places which makes you a bit more vulnerable. 

Other than that it looks like a tough decision ahead of you. I can't really tell you which way to lean because it just comes down to preference - everyone weighs things differently. I suppose if you're leaning more towards academia you'll want to pursue a strong research project opportunity - the issue here is, is Boulder's isa  better project but not currently funded while Washington's is funded. Some other things to consider: Are these programs academically oriented or industry oriented? Does either program encourage you to pump out several papers to bolster your academic record? What sort of assessments does each program have for their degrees? Typically, how sucessful are your potential advisors' graduates - what do they tend to do? What affiliations and collaborations between other departments does each program have or have had? Networking is important for academia too. 

Hey, thanks for the pointers. Taking all of them into account I think overall Washington has a slight academic edge over Boulder for me, but it's still pretty close. There's a bit more certainty in the Washington program as it's a more established advisor and the department has a great placement record, while at Boulder the advisor is fairly new and the project funding isn't yet confirmed. Conversely I think I slightly prefer Boulder as a place to live, but it's pretty close again.

[Tidus]

16 hours ago, SickSlickensides said:

I believe UW has an artic science consortium - everyone seems to be well funded. It seems like you have everything covered very well in your bullet points.  

Seattle is a great city to live in, but IMO, it's a feast or famine city.  On typical UW grad student stipends (~$21k), you'll miss out on a lot that the city has to offer (restaurants / night life).  The fantastic thing about being poor in this area is that there are a ton of outdoor activities.  A 45 minute drive will drop you at many fantastic Cascade trailheads.  UW has a "ride in the rain" contest every winter to see which team can rack up the most mileage bike riding to school/work.  Great kayaking and rock climbing in the area & I'm sure locals would be willing to share/help with gear.  

I don't know anything about Boulder - good luck!

Yeah, UW has a "Future of Ice" initiative, Polar Science Centre and people working on polar stuff in a few other departments, so definitely is a good hub for things.

Funding's guaranteed for 5 years I think, and is closer to $30k. Obviously not quite at feast levels, but enough that I'm not too worried financially.

Definitely interested in getting involved with rock climbing too, so good to know about that. Don't suppose that it's any worse in Boulder though.

Thanks

[sjoh197]

Reading through your thoughts... it seems as though you find UW to be a better fit academically and financially... and find Boulder to seem more appealing to your active lifestyle.

 I have been to both cities and they are both great for outdoor activities and have a great general vibe. While Boulder is nestled in the rockies... seattle has olympic national park (gorgeous hiking) and of course Mt. Ranier is also nearby (also gorgeous). 

The funded option and greater number of polar people at UW seems to give you a better opportunity for networking and such. If the outdoors lifestyle stuff is what's stopping you... this was less than 2 hours away from the university... and there is so much stuff way closer too. And it seemed very bicycle friendly while we were there.

 

[Tidus]

21 minutes ago, sjoh197 said:

Reading through your thoughts... it seems as though you find UW to be a better fit academically and financially... and find Boulder to seem more appealing to your active lifestyle.

Thanks for the input I'd agree with this with the caveat that I don't think there's much difference financially. Both are funded, it's just the project most interesting to me at Boulder is only at the proposal stage. There's at least one already funded project which interests me if it doesn't get funded though. Seattle is also marginally more expensive to live in from what I can work out.

That's a pretty epic photo. If Washington looked like that all the time I'd already have chosen  I guess it's not just the outdoor options but also the weather combined with them. Then again, there's a lot of people saying they quite like the weather, particularly in Summer, so maybe I'm giving this too much of a weighting against Washington.

[sjoh197]

http://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/washington/seattle

http://www.bestplaces.net/climate/city/colorado/boulder

These climate charts could also help... as people tend to exaggerate weather and climate depending on what they prefer. Looking at the chart... we get more rain in inches than seattle does and our comfort level is only 24/100 vs 72/100 for seattle.  

I found that Seattle was rainy... but it wasn't rainy all the time. For example... they might have 150+ "precipitation day" but it wasn't raining all day. Part of it has to do with being surrounded by mountains, so the weather is kind of cyclical. When we were there... it would drizzle about the same time every day...but then the rest of the day was sunny and nice. 

Boulder is very very snowy. Very snowy. Very. Great for snowboarding

If I had to pick one or the other blindly with no other influences, I would pick Boulder in a heartbeat. But, and a big but, Seattle is still really nice. And thinking of your partner working in Denver, if she ends up finding a job on the far side of denver... that would super duper suck as far as commute goes. Whereas, Seattle has the opportunity to utilize public transit and likely more opportunities nearby seeing as how its a busy city. I personally hate big cities, despite living in the 4th largest in america now, and the only thing redeemable about living here is that I don't have to drive very far and I get to use the train. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by sjoh197

[Different_Name_111!!!]

I agree with @sjoh197- views like that are all over the place in the Seattle region, it's fantastic.  The weather is eight months of overcast with negligible/annoying light rain and four months of open sky & stunning beauty. A lot of people are into snow sports around here, but again = $$.  The public transit is great compared to other US cities.  The light rail is opening a station in the U-district next weekend that can take passengers to the airport.  I usually take a bus + light rail to the airport instead of a taxi (will save about $50, but also takes longer). 

IMO $30k is closer to famine in Seattle, but better than many other UW grad students are getting.  I know you said your gf may be following, but I'd recommend a roommate(s) in the interim to help with rental costs if you choose UW.  Crime rates are supposedly high in the U-dist, but I never had a problem anywhere in the city. If you move to Seattle, I'd live on the east side of I5 to ensure a reasonable transit time to UW.  Captiol Hill is an amazing place to live (use of needle drugs on the street is a common sight though), but I got priced out of my 700 sq ft one bedroom apartment 3 years ago ($1600, no utilities or fees included). I ended up moving north of campus, which wasn't as fun, and cost $1400 for a decent sized one bedroom apartment.

I've enjoyed my 7 years here, but I'm also very ready to move to a place with a lower cost of living so I can afford to do fun things on a regular basis.  Or you know, have an unknown relative with amazing riches kick the bucket and will their fortune to me....   

But If I had a tech job, you'd hear nothing but PNW sonnets from me.

[bananaphone]

First off, congrats!  Speaking as a grad student in atmospheric science, those are both phenomenal programs.  I don't think you can really go wrong with either choice.

So I grew up in Boulder and did my undergrad at CU.  I love Boulder.  It's amazing.  There's world-class climbing, skiing, and biking.  Boulder has an awesome microbrewery scene.  Plus, it's god-damn beautiful there.  I didn't really appreciate just how amazing Boulder was when I was growing up, I took it for granted.  I'm blown away by how beautiful Boulder is whenever I go home.  That said, I've spent some time in Seattle (during the summer when it wasn't raining) and I loved it.  It's easily one of my top-5 favorite cities.  I would be happy to end up in either of those cities. 

I'd mostly agree with your academic assessment, UW is probably a better program overall.  Anecdotally, I've recently seen a lot of UW alumni getting TT faculty positions at some solid programs.  Plus, having a funded project is a HUGE plus.  (However, take my "academic advice" with a grain of salt because I'm in a different subfield.)

Other considerations: advising style, group size, prestige, location, etc.  As you've already figured out, there's no right answer on where to go.  It really depends on what you're looking for.  Everyone has different criteria.  It seems like you've identified most of the big factors people use to make their decision but there are a couple others that might (or might not!) be relevant to you.  In particular, the advising style, group size, and seniority can have a huge influence on your overall happiness, productivity, and success in graduate school.  Some questions you might want to ask yourself are:

• "What kind of advising style do YOU need?  Do you want a hands-on advisor that you meet with every week or do you want independence?"  Personally, I like independence and would not do well working for a hands-on advisor.  I meet with my advisor a couple times a year and just email him when I've got questions.  This would not (and does not) work well for some people.
• "Do you want want to be part of a big group or a small group?"  A big group would probably mean interacting more with students/postdocs in the group and a small group would probably be working with your advisor more.  Depending on your preference, either of these could be pluses or minuses for you.  A big group would mean more people to hang out with/complain to/talk to but less face time with your advisor.  Again, what do you think would best suit you?
• "What stage is your advisor at?"  Are they a young hotshot with a lot of ideas?  Are they a famous old professor?  Do you want someone with an established network of former students or someone who is currently revolutionizing the field?  A young professor would probably be very invested in your success (e.g., they may not get tenure if you don't do well) which could mean a lot of pressure on you.  It could also mean they'll help promote your work and be an advocate for you.

That last sentence is an important one, find someone who will be an advocate for you!  Look at their past students and see if their career paths are similar to what you'd like to do.  Do they have a history of students not graduating?  That would be a red-flag.

I'd be happy to answer any questions about life in Boulder or other grad-school related things.  Otherwise, congrats again and good luck with the decision!

[Tidus]

Hi guys, sorry for the lack of responses to this for a while. Your replies were really helpful and I want to thank you all for that. For the sake of closure on this thread, I'm back to say I eventually ended up choosing UW. Super excited for the move to Seattle. Fingers crossed I'll get a chance to stop by Colorado some time later in my life for a post-doc or something.