Unfunded Masters (Yale, JHU) as a leverage for a Top PhD 1-2 years down the road

[sanfonts]

Hi there,

Let me start this topic by quickly summarising my stats: Int'l student (B.S. Biotechnology Engineering) from a Top-3 Mexican University, GPA: 3.96/4.00, GRE Percentiles: 86 (Math) & 90 (Verbal), tons of research experience but no publications so far.

After reading some sobering posts, I realised that I wasn't as competitive as I thought: it seems everyone here has 4.00 GPAs and 170/170 scores in the GRE, but I digress. I decided to apply only to 1 PhD programme (MIT Biological Engineering, rejected) and 3 Masters (Biomedical Engineering: Yale, Johns Hopkins, Stanford). So far, I've been accepted to Yale & Johns Hopkins, but, alas, with no funding.

I'd really appreciate some insight from you guys because right now I'm facing two tough choices:

 

1.- Should I go for it? It's obvious I'm not competitive enough for a direct PhD programme, although the idea of acquiring 70+ k loans doesn't seem particularly appealing... I know I can ease the financial burden by working as a Teaching Assistant, even though that could be considered a merely palliative approach.

2.- If I do decide to study the Master's, what are your thoughts on Yale vs. JHU? I'm thinking about JHU, picking a 2-year thesis-track with the 2nd year fully funded by them and then pursuing a PhD degree at a Top-10 Department. I feel like Yale's (or Stanford's, if I were to be accepted) 1-year MS might be too short for me to leverage my experience into a top programme, but I'm not quite sure. In any case, does my strategy make sense? Are there any fatal flaws?

 

Thank for your consideration on this matter  

CHEERS!

Edited March 22, 2016 by sanfonts

[Vulpix]

This is only distantly related to your predicament, but I've been speculating about to what degree existing educational debt makes a program more likely to give you more funding down the road (i.e. if you have 70K masters debt, your PhD program will give you fewer loans. Or if you have a lot of undergraduate debt, your masters program will offer fewer loans).  This is certainly something I've heard to be true in my masters programs financial aid decisions.  It's what I thought your post was going to be about when I read the title.  

Personally, I think 70K would be too much debt, but if you feel a masters degree would be the only way to become competitive for a PhD, then perhaps.  You should look into other ways to make yourself competitive, or maybe reapply to cheaper programs....

[rising_star]

Did you have a good research fit at each of the places you applied? If not, that could explain some of your rejections. In any case, I wouldn't go $70K+ into debt for a master's, even to get an Ivy League MA/MS.

[eternallyephemeral]

First of all, I'm sure everyone here doesn't have those kinds of stats, let alone more than just a few people.

However, as an aspiring international student from another country (as in, I applied to the US but I'm from Canada), I think we just have to realize how difficult it is to get into top schools in the US. This is true for multiple reasons, that may be difficult to get over even if you are a competitive applicant, and even if you could do this masters, take on the debt, and re-apply.

First of all, these top schools have hundreds and hundreds of applications. One program (spanning eight departments, mind you) that I applied to got 1100-1300 applications. So even if you had all the masters in the world, with the 4.0 and 170/170 youre referring to, there will be many more like that. And if you aren't a US citizen, and they have to pay more to fund you because your tuition is higher, then they are much more likely to choose a domestic student.

However, this is true for public schools and less true (but not completely irrelevant) for private schools. I would highly suggest looking into schools that are not in the top ten, even though I'm sure this will seem bad or like it isn't what you're aiming for. Even though I was told by professors at some top schools that I was a competitive applicant, even though I have quite awesome GREs, LORs, and research experience (plus one publication and another one in the pipeline), I still wasn't even considered or waitlisted/shortlisted for any US schools I applied to. However, at comparable schools in my country, I was shortlisted/interviewed, and sometimes #1 on the waitlist (I was moving to a different field which ultimately sealed my fate and I was rejected when both other people took the offer). In sum, a school that sometimes ranks #4 in the world for their faculty's research put me #1 on the waitlist, when I wasn't even given a second glance at US schools of comparable or sometimes lower ranking. You may find this, or you may be luckier than I am. However, I don't think it's a sure enough bet that I would be willing to go $70k into debt for.

There are likely some schools you will find that aren't exactly what you wanted in terms of ranking and prestige, but they can be a good fit for you and you may still be able to reach your eventual career goals. The place I've accepted is like that, it's a bit lower in ranking, but it has tons of opportunities and a very supportive department. I will be able to thrive and do good work, and my stipend will go a long way towards saving money and living comfortably. I would prioritize these things, but some people don't have the same priorities.

Just make sure that if you're choosing this expensive route, that you think about the kind of places you will later be applying to and whether there are some things you just can't get over, like trying to get funded as an international student from a public university where their funding is very tight. For example, I know at UCLA in some departments, the professor has to sign that they will cover all of the extra costs of an international student if the school were to accept them. And these costs are in the tens of thousands for the prof.

Best of luck with your decision!

[absol]

Hi there, I also applied Stanford MS program this year and just curious have you heard back anything for the master application. Thanks. 

Edited March 23, 2016 by absol

[yogi77]

Are you only interested in the MIT PhD program? There is a good chance you would still get accepted to other PhD programs, depending on your background, even though you were rejected from MIT. I agree with the above posters that it is not worth going into debt for a masters degree.

[sanfonts]

2 hours ago, absol said:

Hi there, I also applied Stanford MS program this year and just curious have you heard back anything for the master application. Thanks. 

Nothing at all! I e-mailed them a few days ago but my request was ignored

[sanfonts]

2 hours ago, yogi77 said:

Are you only interested in the MIT PhD program? There is a good chance you would still get accepted to other PhD programs, depending on your background, even though you were rejected from MIT. I agree with the above posters that it is not worth going into debt for a masters degree.

Thanks for the insight.

On a separate (and hypothetical) note: does the consensus (about the worthiness of the degree, that is) shift when the Master is unfunded but the applicant has the financial resources to pay for it without going into debt? 

[Neist]

31 minutes ago, sanfonts said:

Thanks for the insight.

On a separate (and hypothetical) note: does the consensus (about the worthiness of the degree, that is) shift when the Master is unfunded but the applicant has the financial resources to pay for it without going into debt? 

I wouldn't know precisely, but I imagine there's no reason why anyone would know whether you were funded or not on once you graduate. The one obvious disadvantage that I can think of about lack of funding is that you'll probably be unable to experience some things funded students might, like TA-ships. Depending on what you're long-term plans are, this might or might not matter. 

[eternallyephemeral]

48 minutes ago, sanfonts said:

Thanks for the insight.

On a separate (and hypothetical) note: does the consensus (about the worthiness of the degree, that is) shift when the Master is unfunded but the applicant has the financial resources to pay for it without going into debt? 

I would say some sources of funding are more than just ways to pay for your degree/living expenses, they are also prestigious grants/fellowships that are worth putting on your cv and can help you later win larger grants. So in this way, even if you could pay for a degree, you wouldn't get to say that you received federal funding, or that you wrote grant applications to this many scholarships (which is a skill unto itself).

Also, whether or not you can pay for it does not change the fact that an unfunded masters is usually a way to make a lot of money from a student without the university having to spend too much money on you. They are still showing that they aren't interested in supporting you and allowing you to completely focus on the degree without either draining your savings or working on the side. For that reason, I wouldn't see the degree as that much better.

Mind you, this is for research type degrees, not professional degrees where you could make back all the money you spent in 1-2 years (e.g. medicine, law, MBA).

[Omokorede]

On 22 March 2016 at 2:35 AM, sanfonts said:

Hi there,

Let me start this topic by quickly summarising my stats: Int'l student (B.S. Biotechnology Engineering) from a Top-3 Mexican University, GPA: 3.96/4.00, GRE Percentiles: 86 (Math) & 90 (Verbal), tons of research experience but no publications so far.

After reading some sobering posts, I realised that I wasn't as competitive as I thought: it seems everyone here has 4.00 GPAs and 170/170 scores in the GRE, but I digress. I decided to apply only to 1 PhD programme (MIT Biological Engineering, rejected) and 3 Masters (Biomedical Engineering: Yale, Johns Hopkins, Stanford). So far, I've been accepted to Yale & Johns Hopkins, but, alas, with no funding.

I'd really appreciate some insight from you guys because right now I'm facing two tough choices:

 

1.- Should I go for it? It's obvious I'm not competitive enough for a direct PhD programme, although the idea of acquiring 70+ k loans doesn't seem particularly appealing... I know I can ease the financial burden by working as a Teaching Assistant, even though that could be considered a merely palliative approach.

2.- If I do decide to study the Master's, what are your thoughts on Yale vs. JHU? I'm thinking about JHU, picking a 2-year thesis-track with the 2nd year fully funded by them and then pursuing a PhD degree at a Top-10 Department. I feel like Yale's (or Stanford's, if I were to be accepted) 1-year MS might be too short for me to leverage my experience into a top programme, but I'm not quite sure. In any case, does my strategy make sense? Are there any fatal flaws?

 

Thank for your consideration on this matter  

CHEERS!

Hi there! I see you have heard from the JHU BME for masters. Congrats! I applied too and haven't heard anything :(. When did they send you an acceptance? Have any idea if they are still accepting?

[sanfonts]

2 hours ago, Omokorede said:

Hi there! I see you have heard from the JHU BME for masters. Congrats! I applied too and haven't heard anything :(. When did they send you an acceptance? Have any idea if they are still accepting?

Thank you! I received the offer of acceptance exactly 10 days ago. No idea whether they are sending them in batches or not. Best of luck! 

[gelologist]

If you can pay for it debt-free, that's cool, and I'm not sure what I'd say in that case. But I say hearty "no" to taking on debt: work for a year, get $ and experience and be a better applicant, and apply again if needed. And I'm still disinclined to saying "pay for your own grad school"...I'm at a no-name master's school right now, and I don't think that hurt me, but I sure appreciated not having to pay tuition. YMMV.

[Omokorede]

11 hours ago, sanfonts said:

Thank you! I received the offer of acceptance exactly 10 days ago. No idea whether they are sending them in batches or not. Best of luck! 

Lol! Ok, thanks. How early did you hand in your application?

[ExponentialDecay]

Your post is very strange. 

"I realized I'm not as competitive as I thought, so I applied to the top Biomedical program in the entire world, predictably got rejected, and take that as confirmation that I'm not competitive anywhere else".  I mean, you're obviously competitive, because I'm sitting here racking my brain how you got into anything STEM related with an 86th percentile math GRE.

Your fatal flaw is that you only applied to MIT. Dude, who does that??? Undergrads from MIT, who are applying to the lab they've been working in for 4 years, who are BFFs with their PIs, don't only apply to MIT because it is that competitive. The obvious answer is to research fit and apply widely, but I can understand that you don't want to waste a year. That said, you can get funding for a Master's, even if it won't be at Yale. I personally think 70 grand is insane and don't understand how an international student can even get that kind of money.

[sanfonts]

8 hours ago, Omokorede said:

Lol! Ok, thanks. How early did you hand in your application?

I submitted my application just a few minutes before the deadline (never again!). 

[sanfonts]

8 hours ago, ExponentialDecay said:

Your post is very strange. 

"I realized I'm not as competitive as I thought, so I applied to the top Biomedical program in the entire world, predictably got rejected, and take that as confirmation that I'm not competitive anywhere else".  I mean, you're obviously competitive, because I'm sitting here racking my brain how you got into anything STEM related with an 86th percentile math GRE.

Your fatal flaw is that you only applied to MIT. Dude, who does that??? Undergrads from MIT, who are applying to the lab they've been working in for 4 years, who are BFFs with their PIs, don't only apply to MIT because it is that competitive. The obvious answer is to research fit and apply widely, but I can understand that you don't want to waste a year. That said, you can get funding for a Master's, even if it won't be at Yale. I personally think 70 grand is insane and don't understand how an international student can even get that kind of money.

Sooo... is a 86th Math percentile result a particularly mediocre one for STEM-related graduate degrees? What are the expectations? Honest question. 

 

[sanfonts]

On 23/3/2016 at 10:59 AM, absol said:

Hi there, I also applied Stanford MS program this year and just curious have you heard back anything for the master application. Thanks. 

After e-mailing them, I was told that they will contact us the next week with the results. 

[ExponentialDecay]

11 minutes ago, sanfonts said:

Sooo... is a 86th Math percentile result a particularly mediocre one for STEM-related graduate degrees? What are the expectations? Honest question. 

 

Yeah, it's pretty mediocre. 90th % +,  for international students, pretty much perfect score. the quartiles for accepted students' GREs are available for almost all programs. you should google them.

[gelologist]

8 minutes ago, sanfonts said:

Sooo... is a 86th Math percentile result a particularly mediocre one for STEM-related graduate degrees? What are the expectations? Honest question. 

 

I largely agree with everything else ExponentialDecay said, except that line in particular; I feel like the math should just be above 160 if applying to a top-shelf school. I did 162 and that was like 83rd percentile, my gf did 163 and that was 90-something percentile, so it drops off quick even with just 1 point difference. But you're missing the point if you're fixating on scores. The message still stands that applying only to MIT is....misguided, for lack of a better word. Still, being above 320 (total V + M) I think should be good enough almost anywhere. 

[ExponentialDecay]

3 hours ago, gelologist said:

I largely agree with everything else ExponentialDecay said, except that line in particular; I feel like the math should just be above 160 if applying to a top-shelf school. I did 162 and that was like 83rd percentile, my gf did 163 and that was 90-something percentile, so it drops off quick even with just 1 point difference. But you're missing the point if you're fixating on scores. The message still stands that applying only to MIT is....misguided, for lack of a better word. Still, being above 320 (total V + M) I think should be good enough almost anywhere. 

It obviously differs by discipline as well as by program, but in general, STEM schools judge the math GRE hard. Look at the admissions statistics of top quant heavy programs (which I guess I should specify as physics, math, engineering, CS, and economics, because chem/bio and similar don't come anywhere close to the level of mathematical ability you need for the former, and that may be where your experience is from). 165 is ~25th percentile for admitted students. A shit ton of people applying have a perfect score.

[eternallyephemeral]

Just now, gelologist said:

I largely agree with everything else ExponentialDecay said, except that line in particular; I feel like the math should just be above 160 if applying to a top-shelf school. I did 162 and that was like 83rd percentile, my gf did 163 and that was 90-something percentile, so it drops off quick even with just 1 point difference. But you're missing the point if you're fixating on scores. The message still stands that applying only to MIT is....misguided, for lack of a better word. Still, being above 320 (total V + M) I think should be good enough almost anywhere. 

I got a 163 and it was 86th percentile, but maybe it changed when your gf took it. My test was late September 2015 (so this academic year).

 

I agree about the rest, but I do think that a high GRE is something that an applicant to this kind of program should aim for. Hell, even quant scores for business PhDs (not just in finance/economics) are in the high 90 percentile range. But specific math course grades and a high overall GPA could help.

Either way, we will never know if we're only talking about MIT. Because naturally, competitive applicants to a school of that caliber do have perfect GRE scores.

[bioMR]

On 28/3/2016 at 1:11 PM, sanfonts said:

After e-mailing them, I was told that they will contact us the next week with the results. 

By next week do you mean the week from April, 4- April,8 ? Haha, sorry...I am also waiting for results, and I wonder if I should refrain myself from constantly refreshing my inbox this week too 

[sanfonts]

19 minutes ago, bioMR said:

By next week do you mean the week from April, 4- April,8 ? Haha, sorry...I am also waiting for results, and I wonder if I should refrain myself from constantly refreshing my inbox this week too 

Yes, apparently we'll hear from them Wednesday-Friday of the next week. 

[absol]

On 2016/3/28 at 3:11 PM, sanfonts said:

After e-mailing them, I was told that they will contact us the next week with the results. 

Yea I also got the email and they said they will contact us probably by the end of this week or early next week, hope the decision can be released this Friday.

Edited March 30, 2016 by absol