Will I actually be a grad student?

[UndeclaredStudies]

So I am really confused here. For the past four or so years I have been trying so hard to get into graduate school and basing my whole life around graduate school applications, and now that I've been accepted to some great programs I'm seeing that they are actualy professional programs?? I don't get it. I thought professional school meant business, public health, social work, law, medical, etc., but interdisciplinary environmental? That's considered professional? The programs I got into place great emphasis on academics and research yet they are considered professional? The three programs I got into are Duke Nicholas Master's of Environmental Managent, University of Michigan School of Natural Resources MS, and UCSB Bren Master of Environmental Science and Management. Ok maybe the managent programs could be considered professional, but an MS can be considered professional? My main choice is SNRE but I just feel a little discouraged now that I see it's techincally a "professional" degree and that it's a "professional" school. It just doesn't make sense to me though, SNRE places a huge emphasis on research and academics. I thought professional meant there wasn't an emphasis on these? Please understand that I am not trying to talk down to or undermine professional programs, but it is just not what I was looking for/expecting. Still, these programs seem fantastic and cover the very topics I want to work in. Like SNRE is just about the ideal program for me and will let me study the specific subfields I want to become involved in. Like I am really excited about the program, just the degree name is confusing me. I evenually want to try for PhD programs, and am just wondering if programs will look down on the fact that I have a "professional" MS. Is this not a "real" MS? Also what do I even tell people? That I am not going to graduate school, but instead professional school? That I'm not going to be a graduate student, but instead anprofessional student? I seriously thought anyone who is persuing a master's is therefore a graduate student. When I think professional student I think more about networking and business, and less on science and research, which is what I am more interested in. As for  what I want to do with the degree, well I want to be a scientist/research/consultant/environemntal advocate at nonprofits or some environmental organizations. I know some will say that is what a professional degree is for, but at the same time if I am going to be putting in all this effort to earn an MS I would like it to be the real deal. Sorry for the long post, I just really need some perspective here. I don't want want to end up turning down some great programs because of the simple name of a degree!

thanks

[betun]

I cannot claim to be an expert in this regard. I am just putting my opinion here for all its worth.
The MEM or equivalent programs are suited for practitioners. It is true though that the course content might be more generic but if the program is flexible in choosing courses, a student could specialize by choosing PhD level coursework provided he/she meets prerequisites. I think that you should scrutinize the curriculum and speak to students to get an idea of how much depth the masters program would go into in terms of research and whether the courses are meant to give an overview of give expertise.

These programs are meant to be platforms to a professional career and not designed for further research/ academia. However, based on previous background and coursework undertaken, these could serve as platforms for a PhD. It is just that the aim of these programs is to impart adequate skills for working competently in the field.

Whether an M.S is considered professional or not is dependent on what its graduates do after graduating. A program being professional does not mean that its research quality is the lesser for it.

Would prefer more expert opinions on this though.

P.S: I too got into Duke.

[runjackrun]

Hi there @UndeclaredStudies. I am by no means an expert, but I am weighing offers from similar schools (UCSB Bren, Yale FES) as well as an offer in an academic, research-based MS. I understand your concerns as I have shared them myself, but I urge you not to get TOO hung up on the name of the degree. Yes, you will still be a graduate student (it is still a graduate school, it is still a masters degree just like a MPA and a MBA are masters degrees--there are professional degrees in many fields). The primary difference I think of with these programs is that they are not research-based (you do a capstone project as opposed to a thesis at the end) and there is a greater emphasis on gaining skills through coursework. None of that means there aren't opportunities for research at these schools. Each one has many faculty members that are being published and I'm sure many accept RAs (I've seen at least one in my search through Bren students). So do not get caught up in "professional" school terminology--it's grad school.

Whether it will set you up for a PhD is an important consideration. I haven't ruled out a PhD myself and want to make sure I can keep my options open if I pursue a MEM/MESM. I've read from the programs that while they are intended to be professional programs, many students go on to PhDs each year. I know one of my professors in undergrad started in Yale's MEM program and went on to the PhD program there, so it is very possible. You'll just want to make sure you take advantage of research opportunities while you are in these programs. 

A final important consideration: because these are professional degrees, the funding situation is very different than with academic degrees. With academic degrees, tuition waivers, health insurance, and stipends are fairly common because you are expected to be contributing to the body of research. Professional degrees are not the same, and while most programs provide scholarships, getting full tuition, health insurance, and living stipends are quite rare. If you are on the fence here and considering taking out a lot of debt, it may be worth holding off for a year and researching professors you would like to work with in other MS programs. 

So, all of that is a long way of saying that you should not spend a lot of time worried about semantics and what the program is called, but you should look at how it is structurally different from an academic MS and whether it will still meet your needs given that professional programs are often a larger financial investment. Good luck with your decision-making and congrats on your acceptances to some great programs!

[rising_star]

Professional master's degrees are still graduate degrees. Those who do them are still considered graduate students at most institutions.

[svent]

I'll say this. In CS, many schools offer Master's programs which are still research-oriented. These are for people with a CS background from undergrad. Though you usually still have the opportunity to do coursework-only. There tend to be opportunities for funding, though PhD students are obviously prioritized. Then there are "professional Master's" programs (like UPenn's MCIT) which are major cash cow programs and are essentially like an undergrad CS program without all the extra crap (gen ed's). These tend to be for career changers who majored in English, Psychology, or whatever, and would have to spend a few years taking CS undergrad classes as a non-degree student just to get into a research-oriented MS program.

People tend to have better career outcomes from the "real" Master's programs, but the people who got into the professional Master's probably didn't have the background to get into the "real" Master's programs anyway. Getting into a PhD program is hard, and research is key. That's why a "real" Master's program will be better.

[Windmills]

Ditto on what others have said on not worrying about the semantics of a "professional degree."

From what I understand the main purpose of the "Big 4" MEM professional degrees is to get you into the workforce right after graduation, hence the "professional" part. I only applied to UCSB but from what I can tell the Bren school seems to offer tremendous career services and networking opportunities. They report that in the past 5 years 99% of graduates are employed within 4 months. You can look into their career placements to get an idea of what people do after graduating (I would do the same for your other programs). A few do go on to PhD programs, but those that do seem pretty confined to UCSB/the UC system. From what I understand, Duke also has incredible career services. I would love to attend Bren for the professional training, but it would cost way too much compared to my other options.

If you really want to go on to a PhD, I imagine a traditional, research-based MS would be a better option. The good news is that if you were able to get into programs as good as Duke's, Michigan's, and UCSB's, then I imagine—so long as you have a sciency/research/analytical background—you should have no problem getting into other top MS research programs as well.

You mentioned that you eventually want to go on to scientist, research, consultant, or environmental advocate positions. From what I can tell on Bren's career page, those are all job types attained by their graduates and I imagine the same is true of Duke and Michigan's grads, which makes me wonder your motives for doing a PhD first. If you're leaning more towards heavy research and being a PI then I think a PhD is your best bet. But if you're leaning more towards consulting or environmental advocacy, I imagine you'd be fine with a professional MS degree from any of the programs you got into.

[UndeclaredStudies]

Thank you everyone for weighing in with your opinions! I will try not to get caught up too much in the name of the degree, as SNRE and Duke do seem like really great programs. Hearing from other students, these programs can provide you with substantial research experience as they are all flexible. My top dream program this year was ERG at Berkeley, but I was rejected. As for what i want to do with graduate school, well, yes, being a professional in the workforce. As far as being a professor and staying for years doing research at a university, well, I want to pursue a career outside of school. I am still thinking about pursuing a PhD, but if I end up really liking my master's research experience, then I might choose to go on. As far as I know, I still would want to apply to the PhD program at ERG. If I did turn down SNRE, it really would just be for that one word "professional". Everything else about the program seems incredible from what I have seen, and perhaps I'll be even more sold on the idea after admitted students weekend. I will be visiting Duke as well. I gotta say though, are these programs actually hard to get into? From what I have seen Yale FES is very selective, but what about Nicholas, SNRE, and Bren? From what I have seen just about everyone gets into these master's programs. I should also add that I was also unofficially accepted to University of Wisconsin-Madison for an MS in Environment and Resources, which is not a professional degree. Oh man this is a hard decision...

[GradSchoolTruther]

If you're turning down a program just because of the name of a degree, you need to rethink what you want out of a graduate program. As for programs being hard to get in to, they are.

[Windmills]

It sounds like you have a lot to think about in terms of what you want out of the degree and what you want to do afterwards. Of course you don't have to have everything completely figured out now, but I think you should be very sure that you want to go on to do research/PhD if you're going to turn down the Duke, Michigan, and UCSB programs.

At least for Bren's MESM, I thought it would have been more selective than it actually is. This year they had about 370 applications with an acceptance rate around 50%. A little less than half of those admitted will probably enroll. I imagine Yale and Duke's programs are more selective because of their overall name reputation and established programs, and probably the same, but perhaps to a lesser extent, for Michigan. I don't know if any program is actually or perceived as better than the others though and US News doesn't specifically report on environmental management program rankings. For what it's worth they have a global environment/ecology ranking which seems to include environmental management and they put it as Duke > UCSB > Yale > Michigan. Though that's a little surprising because I'm pretty sure Bren is the newest of the 4 and is modeled after Nicholas and Yale.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Windmills

[UndeclaredStudies]

Yeah I saw that 50% acceptance report and was like whattt. I thought this was a selective program seeing how hard UCSB can be to get into as an undergrad. As for what I want to get out of these programs, well basically all that they offer! I really do like these programs and love how they blend scientific research with practical skills. Since I am not completely sold on the idea of dedicating my life to academia, these programs are very appealing to me. To be honest, what I really did want out of a graduate degree, was an interdisciplinary science education, with practical skills as well. In fact I was even worried at first about actually being able to USE a purely academic grad degree, hearing that they are meant for those interested in pursuing being a professor, which is not something I am really interested in pursuing right now. I know I shouldn't be gettinf caught up in the name of a degree, but I would still like to be able to proudly write MS on my resume and proudly say that I am a graduate student in graduate school!

[runjackrun]

It's important to remember that a lot of these programs are self-selective. In other words, you are less likely to apply to Yale, UCSB Bren, Duke, or Michigan if you had horrendous GREs, a bad GPA, no environmental experience, etc. It means the programs are able to accept a larger percentage of applicants simply because there isn't a massive number of people applying like in undergrad, nor does every student have to be tied to a professor so there's slightly greater capacity. I believe I heard once that Yale's MEM acceptance rate is something like 35-40 percent, but no one on this forum would tell you that Yale FES is easy to get into by any stretch of the imaginnation. With these programs, you're competing in an already well-qualified field. 

As has been said, you can still put MS on your resume (or MEM, or MESM) and you will still be a graduate student in graduate school. 

[hikarusymphony]

Hi UndeclaredStudies, 

I was also accepted to the masters programs at Duke Nic School and UM SNRE and plan on pursuing a PhD in the future. I am drawn to these programs because they place great emphasis on skill development, although it seems like the program at SNRE is more academic in nature than Nic. Because these programs do not lead directly to a PhD, I plan to work for 2-5 years outside of academia before pursuing a PhD but I think that work experience will be a valuable asset given the nature of my field.

However, SNRE and Nic School both offer PhDs, so I would assume that there will be opportunities for you to go on to pursue a PhD after the professional masters as long as you have a clear research topic and form a good relationship with a professor that share the same interests as you during masters. I did indeed saw one person from Duke on linkedin that went on to pursue a PhD right after MEM. 

I plan on attending Duke because SNRE offered me far too little financial aid compared to Duke. Were you offered scholarships from SNRE?

[UndeclaredStudies]

Oh congrats on getting into Duke! I am actually attending their visiting weekend coming up. I was offered a couple thousand from SNRE (incoming student award or something like that) and a bit more from Duke, but nothing significant. I am kind of freaking out seeing that most scholarship deadlines have already passed, some passed before I even knew I got into any program?? I guess I just didn't see the point in applying to scholarships if I wasn't even sure I was going to be accepted into anything. So SNRE is still accepting students? I see that the final application deadline for MS/MLA is April 30th, which seems kinda late! I am thinking about a PhD, but at this point, I want to kind of stop thinking about it. I don't want my whole life to be centered around getting into a PhD program. I spent so much to dedicating my life to getting into ERG at Berkeley for grad school, and in the end, rejected. Whether I decide to attend Michigan or Duke, I just want to live in the moment and just focus on the masters for now (well of course still getting some solid research experience just in case!). I must say that the environment and focus as SNRE seems a little more appealing to me, I don't know why, but the the more professional/networking/career-building vibe I get from Nicholas and Bren is sort of not what I am looking for. I really like the more research/academic focus of SNRE. But I am just going off of what I have read online. I am hoping that visiting these schools really does change my perspective on what a professional degree will really mean!

[eternallyephemeral]

Just now, UndeclaredStudies said:

Oh congrats on getting into Duke! I am actually attending their visiting weekend coming up. I was offered a couple thousand from SNRE (incoming student award or something like that) and a bit more from Duke, but nothing significant. I am kind of freaking out seeing that most scholarship deadlines have already passed, some passed before I even knew I got into any program?? I guess I just didn't see the point in applying to scholarships if I wasn't even sure I was going to be accepted into anything. So SNRE is still accepting students? I see that the final application deadline for MS/MLA is April 30th, which seems kinda late! I am thinking about a PhD, but at this point, I want to kind of stop thinking about it. I don't want my whole life to be centered around getting into a PhD program. I spent so much to dedicating my life to getting into ERG at Berkeley for grad school, and in the end, rejected. Whether I decide to attend Michigan or Duke, I just want to live in the moment and just focus on the masters for now (well of course still getting some solid research experience just in case!). I must say that the environment and focus as SNRE seems a little more appealing to me, I don't know why, but the the more professional/networking/career-building vibe I get from Nicholas and Bren is sort of not what I am looking for. I really like the more research/academic focus of SNRE. But I am just going off of what I have read online. I am hoping that visiting these schools really does change my perspective on what a professional degree will really mean!

You want to be a professional in the workforce and you want to put MS on your resume and say you're a graduate student in graduate school, but you don't like the professional/networking/career-building vibe?

How do you think you'll be a professional? How will people read that you have an MS on your resume if not for networking and a professional focus?

 

As an aside (maybe for next time), I applied to tons of scholarships before even finishing my application to some schools. Scholarships can be extremely competitive and they can have very early deadlines. You are absolutely expected to apply to them beforehand, and as I'm sure you can tell it looks very good to be prepared and to have applied ahead of time. They don't cost anything, so you don't lose by applying to them before you know when you'll get in.