Medievalists?

[Shaky Premise]

That's actually a good idea - I was wondering how to prove the new Latin skills since they won't be on any transcript anywhere. I also scoped out a few books in Amazon, for self study, and found a few basic classes, and I also found one website promoting itself as teaching "Latin of the Vulgate Bible" which might be appropriate for Medieval Latin. However, all the places I've applied to this year have intensive summer Latin, and if not this year, then the ones I'll chose for next year will have the same. I just want to enter the program with a basic grasp of the language (I actually recognize a lot of stuff from studying Latin roots in English, and from my basic French).

Anyhow, the more I read up on stuff, the more it seems that I will remain a happy Medievalist. After all, how many Israelis are out there who love Latin and Middle English, as well as having an ardent desire to read The Red Book of Hergest and The White Book of Rhydderch in Welsh? As much as I love Shakespeare and the Renaissance, I think I love Medieval more. Especially since so much of the folklore that I love either originated or was first written down then... it's also my best way to push for a semester abroad in Wales

I HIGHLY recommend participating in one of the summer Latin programs for all of you looking to work on or improve your Latin. The more intensive the program, the better. Chipping away at the stone with a course here and an independent study there is extremely difficult. I tried to learn Latin that way and constantly found myself lapsing and having to relearn the fundamentals. I finally gave in and participated in a summer program last year, and I've got the language drilled into my brain now. Of course you won't be able to make huge strides in learning vocabulary with these programs (not enough time), but you WILL learn the grammar and morphology and probably pick up valuable tips on how to deal with tricky/unusual stuff. With the help of a Latin-English dictionary, you'll be able to translate Latin fairly well. Also, many of these programs do lead up to taking and (ideally!) passing the Toronto MA-level exam. I'm pretty sure most medievalists, whether English or History folks, will want to or have to have that exam under their belts, if not the PhD-level exam. I'm sure the best way to learn Latin is to work at it for years and years, starting as an undergrad, but for those of us who didn't think that far ahead, the summer programs are quite good!

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

I HIGHLY recommend participating in one of the summer Latin programs for all of you looking to work on or improve your Latin. The more intensive the program, the better. Chipping away at the stone with a course here and an independent study there is extremely difficult. I tried to learn Latin that way and constantly found myself lapsing and having to relearn the fundamentals. I finally gave in and participated in a summer program last year, and I've got the language drilled into my brain now. Of course you won't be able to make huge strides in learning vocabulary with these programs (not enough time), but you WILL learn the grammar and morphology and probably pick up valuable tips on how to deal with tricky/unusual stuff. With the help of a Latin-English dictionary, you'll be able to translate Latin fairly well. Also, many of these programs do lead up to taking and (ideally!) passing the Toronto MA-level exam. I'm pretty sure most medievalists, whether English or History folks, will want to or have to have that exam under their belts, if not the PhD-level exam. I'm sure the best way to learn Latin is to work at it for years and years, starting as an undergrad, but for those of us who didn't think that far ahead, the summer programs are quite good!

Oh, I already know my summers at grad school are all about the languages - Intensive Latin, for sure. I'm just trying to prep in advance as much as possible - get some vocab, basic grammar, etc., so i won't be shocked silly. I'm lucky that I actually love the language, and because I'm bilingual, I have a pretty easy time learning new languages, especially reading (I'm worse at speaking, I can never remember the right word. Luckily, that isn't required for a PhD hhahahah)

[Sparky]

So everyone knows the importance of Latin for Medievalists, but what other languages do you think grad schools look for?

As many as possible is, of course, the best...but which do you think they look for specifically, and how proficient do you think they'd want you to be while applying? Do you think they take into consideration that you could become proficient in a language during the summer before matriculation, or do they just assume that wouldn't happen?

For research, especially if you are doing anything that touches religion: (modern) French and German

Also, a vernacular, either Middle English or Old English (Anglo-Saxon) depending on whether you are late or early medieval. It's not a bad idea to learn Old French, either.

Qualifier: That's more from the religion/history angle. In English lit, I imagine it would be more important to learn Middle or Old English and modern French. I think that Latin + 1 research language is fairly standard for lit (could be wrong). History usually wants Latin, French and German (and maybe a vernacular); theology wants...all that and your firstborn child. /sigh

Obviously, you can say in your SOP that you're planning to work with a tutor in the spring or take a class over the summer, but realistically, the adcomm is going to be skeptical if you say "I'm going to learn German, French, and Latin this summer!" Typically, they define "proficient in a modern language" by "able to read and understand a scholarly article with the aid of a dictionary." You can do that with French or German in a summer, probably. If you do Latin, don't expect to learn another language at the same time.

Proficient in Latin means different things at different schools, to the extent that I just put "intermediate" on my CV b/c I don't know how the various places defined the other term. It would take a lot of work to be proficient in Latin in a summer, especially medieval Latin (which is a whole other ballgame...erm...jousting match?...than classical), but you *might* be able to pull it off. It's just that there is a huge gap between the practice sentences in the standard textbooks and thirteenth century hagiography.

@ Nighthob:

Whoever uttereth the name of Dan Brown in a way that does not insult him (you're safe, don't worry)...anathema sit.

[Kam]

Hmm, those are good points, Sparky. I'd wondered about German, but an undergrad professor told me I didn't need it (and I hope he's right because I just don't seem to mesh well with German). I've only had 1 semester of Latin (I dropped it this semester to take a renaissance Italy history class) and while I'd planned to take Old English, I dropped it after the first class...

I wish I had taken Latin earlier, but I guess I just have to wait and see now.

*sigh*

[medielit]

Hi Everyone,

I am also a medievalist. I will be applying for masters programs next fall in order to improve my credentials / language skills and make sure I'm ready to commit myself to further grad study. My English interests are female spiritual writers especially Kempe & Julian of Norwich and moral comedies especially Croxton & Occupation and Idleness. I am currently double majoring at undergrad in English and History, and my medieval historical interests are Empress Matilda (and William of Malmesbury's Historia Novella), heresies (Albigensians and Lollards), and women in the Vatican.

Edited February 6, 2010 by medielit

[arabella]

I'm Renaissance and have often seen Early Modern/Renaissance used interchangably. Renaissance is more specific, but I would argue that it's definitely considered E.M.

thanks to both of you for the clarification! i have seen premodern used, but not sure what it's referring to -- sometimes it seems to refer to renaissance, but if ren is also early modern, it seems weird that early modern would be wrapped up in the term "premodern" -- i guess i'll have to leave the confusion to you old lit folks

[Sparky]

thanks to both of you for the clarification! i have seen premodern used, but not sure what it's referring to -- sometimes it seems to refer to renaissance, but if ren is also early modern, it seems weird that early modern would be wrapped up in the term "premodern" -- i guess i'll have to leave the confusion to you old lit folks

Premodern = late antiquity + medieval; sometimes just medieval. When applied to non-Western societies, often refers to level of technological development, not necessarily time period. Another way to put it: "not ancient and not modern"

"Early modern" is just a way to say "We can't talk about the Renaissance if it happened at different times in different countries in different subjects." And 'Renaissance' is very Eurocentric...especially for a time when shit was going down in other parts of the world, if you'll pardon my language. Calling that whole era the Renaissance effectively erases everything that was going on in the Americas, Africa, Asia/Oceania, and with non-elite Europeans. </soapbox>

~

Meanwhile, I am majorly jealous of all you English lit medievalists who can apply to Indiana's Eng department. If I were even *remotely* qualified to study Eng lit...alas.

ETA: speelchek

Edited February 7, 2010 by Sparky

[jb3ka]

If you want to brush up on Latin prose, I would recommend reading a couple of books from the Vulgate. Or, if you can find a library copy, sections of the Summa. If you find these too easy, go for the Confessions. There's an excellent annotated edition out there published by a company called Bolchazy-Carducci.

For me, the differences between the two ('two,' of course, belies the history of the language from the 5th century on) have always seemed worth attending to, but not worth fretting over. The great Latin stylists of the Middle Ages made ready use classical grammar and syntax in ways that had fallen out of common use by the 9th or 10th centuries. If you have more of a classical background (like me), you'll have the most problems with vocabulary and spelling.

[chrissy88]

I've always liked Arthurian romance as well. Have you read anything by Geoffrey of Monmouth? I did a senior capstone project on an aspect of his big work. I struggle to find people who have even heard of him, much less read and enjoyed any of his stuff.

This is super-belated, but I'm new to thegradcafe.com! Geoffrey of Monmouth is awesome! I've studied him in two of my undergraduate classes. So have no fear, there is at least one other fan out there!

[Sparky]

This is super-belated, but I'm new to thegradcafe.com! Geoffrey of Monmouth is awesome! I've studied him in two of my undergraduate classes. So have no fear, there is at least one other fan out there!

We're medievalists. We're ALL five hundred years too late.

Is Arthurian lit your focus?

[Nighthob]

I'm also trying to work on my Latin and don't have a decent local course available (a local language institute offers one, but seeing as it promises me it will teach me to 'speak like a native' I don't think it's very good...). So I've decided to study with the aim of taking the SAT Latin exam (which is intended for high schoolers with four years of Latin). I thought you might consider it as well- it's good to have something to aim for, and it would also mean you would end up with proof of your skills!

Venetia,

Yeah, probably best to avoid courses claiming to teach you to speak Latin like a native! LOL!

The SAT Latin exam test is a great idea! I think I'll also look at the local public schools and see if I can find a Latin teacher who might be able to point me towards additional resources. Thanks for sharing!

[Branwen daughter of Llyr]

We're medievalists. We're ALL five hundred years too late.

Indeed!! *sigh*

Don't forget we're also in the wrong country

[chrissy88]

We're medievalists. We're ALL five hundred years too late.

Is Arthurian lit your focus?

Excellent point, Sparky.

And I've actually just recently developed a love for Arthurian lit. I've mainly been focusing on the French texts. But, my French is poor, so it's a battle! Prior to this, I focused on Chaucer for quite some time. For my thesis, though, I'm incorporating both areas and discussing female love in selected texts.

[Medievalmaniac]

I've always liked Arthurian romance as well. Have you read anything by Geoffrey of Monmouth? I did a senior capstone project on an aspect of his big work. I struggle to find people who have even heard of him, much less read and enjoyed any of his stuff.

Hey! Geoffrey was a major element in my MA thesis. I discussed the collective unconscious and the crafting of national identity from one generation to the next post Conquest, focusing specifically on linguistic and socio-historical shifts in the texts of Geoffrey (Latin); Wace (Norman); Lazamon (Anglo-Saxon) and Malory (late Middle English). I LOVED my thesis, and am currently developing it with a publisher as a monograph. Glad to see someone else around who likes his "creative history"!

[Medievalmaniac]

So everyone knows the importance of Latin for Medievalists, but what other languages do you think grad schools look for?

As many as possible is, of course, the best...but which do you think they look for specifically, and how proficient do you think they'd want you to be while applying? Do you think they take into consideration that you could become proficient in a language during the summer before matriculation, or do they just assume that wouldn't happen?

As others have said, this totally depends on your focus - Latin is pretty much a "you at least have to have a rudimentary ability" language, but after that it's really going to depend on what place and time you are working in. If you are working in western/ British Isles, you'll certainly want Old and Middle English, and maybe even Old Norse Icelandic, especially for early medieval. For British/Celtic, Old and Middle Irish and Welsh. If you are working post-Conquest, you'll want French, Old and Middle, as well as Middle English. If you are working in Spanish, you'll want Arabic; same for any eastern/Islamic focuses. If you are doing medieval far eastern literatures and cultures, you'll need corresponding history of those particular languages (medieval Chinese, etc. - I'm not sure what that would even entail, to be honest, never having studied Asian languages).

[Medievalmaniac]

I'm a medievalist too, but my interests are in the early part of the period, whereas it looks like most of the folks here skew to the later part. Old English and Anglo-Latin stuff, that's my niche, though I do enjoy Middle English literature, particularly alliterative revival works and some of the Christian "mystical" material. I don't get the sense that there are many of us Anglo-Saxonists floating around out there, but I kinda doubt that makes my chances of admission any better. There probably aren't a whole lot of spots open for Anglo-Saxonists either, so it all balances out. I think the long and short of it is that getting into any program is hyper-uber-ultra-competitive no matter what your proposed specialty is. I've been through this before and talked to lots of people about it, and I'm believing more and more that it's all a great big gamble, in which we pay lots of money and devote lots of time to the process and can only hope the stars align and we get admitted and funded (much better odds than the Powerball Lottery, but the same helpless feeling). Unless of course you've got an airtight application, which I most assuredly do not. It's worth a shot though! Good luck to all of you, and here's hoping there's a spot somewhere for all us medievalists out there...

Shaky - as an Anglo-Saxonist, you could not do better than you have done for acceptances!! BRAVO to you! Is that Tenn-Knox, Tenn-Nash, or...? Never mind, doesn't matter, you got into FSU, and THAT means ELAINE TREHARNE! She's a genius, and a fabulously wonderful person. You are going to have a BLAST studying with her if you decide to go there!!!!

[Medievalmaniac]

Hello, my name is Medievalmaniac, and I'm a medievalist.....lol

At present, a lonely medievalist, having graduated from my Master's program last year and been living and working in a place where I am the token one who knows what the Tain is...

I've listed all of my research interests elsewhere, but the quick answer is post-Conquest and Anglo-Norman England, focus on Arthuriana, national and individual identity, insular vs. Other communities represented in literature, violence/ victim's agency, and supernatural/monstrous/magical in folklore and romance. Obviously, as a woman, I also like doing the women (metaphorically!! In terms of scholarship!! lol) I hope to do cross-textual and cross-cultural work in Anglo-Norman, Anglo-Saxon, Middle English, Latin, and Celtic (Irish and Welsh) texts in Britain c. 11-14th centuries for the next forty years or so.

[Nighthob]

For research, especially if you are doing anything that touches religion: (modern) French and German

Also, a vernacular, either Middle English or Old English (Anglo-Saxon) depending on whether you are late or early medieval. It's not a bad idea to learn Old French, either.

Qualifier: That's more from the religion/history angle. In English lit, I imagine it would be more important to learn Middle or Old English and modern French. I think that Latin + 1 research language is fairly standard for lit (could be wrong). History usually wants Latin, French and German (and maybe a vernacular); theology wants...all that and your firstborn child. /sigh

....

@ Nighthob:

Whoever uttereth the name of Dan Brown in a way that does not insult him (you're safe, don't worry)...anathema sit.

For the Latinish folks, you might want to check out latinum.mypodcast.com. In addition to free online materials (yay for free!), they also have some low-cost materials. I'm extremely auditory, so hearing the language while I read along with a text is proving to be excellent for me. I've taken a grad-level Chaucer class, so I'm hoping to pull some of the Middle English knowledge back out of the depths of my noggin, but I'll certainly need a refresher.

I'm personally expecting Old English, Middle English, Middle Irish, and Middle Welsh to be necessary for my research in addition to Latin. Daunting? Yep. But, also exciting. Like most of us, I really believe in the power of language, and I look forward to being able to understand works like the Lebor Gabala or the Mabinogi in their "original" forms.

And Sparky, thanks for exempting me from your ire. I highly recommend Googling Dan-Brown-worst-sentences if you want a good laugh.

[Kam]

I have to say that I'm surprised by the number of people with research interest in Arthuriana, and I wonder if the percentage here correlates with the general Medievalist applicant pool.

Do those of you wishing to work in that field have more specific interests/aspects of Arthuriana that you want to look into? Last summer, when I was thinking about what I'd want to focus on in grad school, I briefly considered topics in Arthuriana, but I thought the subject might already be packed with research from the past couple centuries. Do those of you wanting to go into this part of the field want to do something completely new in Arthuriana, or are you looking to re-visit older research?

[Venetia]

Do those of you wishing to work in that field have more specific interests/aspects of Arthuriana that you want to look into? Last summer, when I was thinking about what I'd want to focus on in grad school, I briefly considered topics in Arthuriana, but I thought the subject might already be packed with research from the past couple centuries. Do those of you wanting to go into this part of the field want to do something completely new in Arthuriana, or are you looking to re-visit older research?

Well, I think everyone has to have some sort of specific interest when studying Arthuriana, because there's just so much out there! I'm interested in the way Arthur is used politically in England (although I have not studied it much, only read some great crit about it), and I wrote my thesis on Gawain, who has to be the best Arthurian knight. I am not at all a fan of Lancelot and Perceval! Ahem. Anyhow, I combined old research with my own ideas. The great thing about Arthurian studies is that they've been going on since the nineteenth century, so I had some great Victorian criticism to include and evaluate, while the VAST volume of texts available to study meant that I wasn't just rehashing what others had already said.

Also, Arthurian studies have been experiencing a bit of a rejuventation lately, or so I've heard. Suddenly Malory's 'Morte D'Arthur' is trendy again, and lots of critics are writing about it. What were you thinking of studying in Arthurian lit, Kam? Although some stuff has been done to death, there's still a lot of room for new scholarship I think.

[Medievalmaniac]

My research in terms of Arthuriana is primarily on Arthur as a symbol of British national identity and the changes and shifts of his representation as such and their implications from Geoffrey through Malory in England; I also look at how he is handled in the French tradition by way of comparison. Although this has been done, there's a lot of work left in this field; I'm applying psychological and philosophical principles to the subject matter, and my approach has netted me a book deal - so clearly, there's original work left to be done!!

[HelloKaty37]

Another medievalist here.

I hope to do cross-textual and cross-cultural work in Anglo-Norman, Anglo-Saxon, Middle English, Latin, and Celtic (Irish and Welsh) texts in Britain c. 11-14th centuries for the next forty years or so.

Medievalmaniac, where have you studied Celtic languages? I'm very interested in the Ulster Cycle, but my undergrad university lost its Irish professors just before I came here. Now it looks like I will just have to pick it up in bits and pieces on my own or in graduate school.

Has anyone ever heard of someone using literature in their dissertation that they didn't have the language for going into graduate school? I'm advertising myself as a Danteist to potential programs, which is accurate since I am very interested in his work and his influence on Boccaccio, but I would much prefer to spend several years comparing the ideal of the warrior-hero in Anglo Saxon and Celtic literature.

[Kam]

Venetia - Arthur from a political standpoint sounds like an interesting one, and that's definitely something I haven't seen much of in my own reading. It actually never occurred to me to think about the matter politically before (which seems kind of silly, since he's King Arthur and everything...haha), but now that you mention it I'm kind of intrigued!

The aspects of Arthuriana I'm interested in are somewhat numerous, but all kind of related. Mostly I was interested in the supernatural aspects of Arthurian literature, and how they were different across periods and national literatures. Kind of connected to that, I wanted to look into how those supernatural aspects (many of them relate to the genre of romance) changed through history (from Spenser to the much more contemporary Marion Zimmer Bradley) and in different national literatures (English, French, Italian, German, Celtic, etc). I'm also interested in the lesser studied Arthuriana that isn't in English, French, or German (like texts in Italian, for instance) and relating it back to the more often studied texts.

oh, and PS, I completely agree that Gawain is the best knight lol

Medievalmaniac - The application of psychological and philosophical principles sounds like an original one! I didn't think about the fact that newer theories and ideas could be applied for new interpretations, but it's definitely something that could bring about a lot of new readings. And congrats on the book deal!! Is it through an academic press, or commercial?

[Kam]

Has anyone ever heard of someone using literature in their dissertation that they didn't have the language for going into graduate school? I'm advertising myself as a Danteist to potential programs, which is accurate since I am very interested in his work and his influence on Boccaccio, but I would much prefer to spend several years comparing the ideal of the warrior-hero in Anglo Saxon and Celtic literature.

I can't say for sure, but I would assume that most programs would allow you to develop language proficiency while in the program, especially if you want to do research in that language. If you have the required language skills upon matriculation, I don't see why they'd dislike if you gained more if you can handle it.

At least this is what I'm hoping lol. I haven't had a chance to do any study in the Celtic languages, and while my research interests don't necessary need to include Celtic literature (like you, I presented myself in relation to what knowledge I currently have), I'd like the chance to include them.

[Nighthob]

I'm applying psychological and philosophical principles to the subject matter, and my approach has netted me a book deal - so clearly, there's original work left to be done!!

Medievalmaniac, congratulations on the book deal!

My interest in Arthuriana is both in how pre-Christian myth informed the early legends and how the Arthurian canon is now being revised and revitalized in modern mass media. I'm particularly interested in the roles of women in modern versions of the legends -- from Zimmer Bradley's feminist proto-pagan Morgaine to Keira Knightly's wode-spackled Guinevere.

Interest in Arthuriana has remained remarkably strong for quite a while now, and I suspect part of the reason is because the legends continue to be revitalized in modern literature and film. There are oldies like me who fondly remember singing tunes from Lerner and Loewe's "Camelot" as a child or reading Lloyd Alexander's books soon after they were published. But since then, there have been a host of other versions of the legends that have continued to influence my generation (and good golly, I feel old saying that) as well as younger folks.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Nighthob