Weighing Prestige of School vs. Financial Costs (My MA Dilemma)

[Nicholas B]

Hey Ya'll,

 I'm pursuing a MA in Buddhist/Religious Studies. Specifically, I'm trying to acquire a language foundation (Sanskrit) that will allow me to apply to PhD programs in a few years.

I am having a real hard time getting a grip on some financial decisions. 

Here's a quick breakdown:

     -My dream is to get a PhD from UVA or Brown. Two schools which are near the top in the field for Buddhist Studies.

     -I assume that a MA from a very prestigious school like, say, UChi or Colombia, would help my chances of getting into these PhD programs.

      -However, from what I've been able to gather, coming across funding for MA programs in Religious Studies is rare. Seems to be 50% tuition at best.

      -I have the grades to get in a place like UChi or Colombia, but paying for these places, even with some amount of funding, would require sinking myself around 50k into debt, rounding up my grand student loan debt to 100k.

     - I'm sure there are some cheaper state school out there that I could get into and incur less debt, but I'm worried such schools may not be of high enough caliber to get into the likes of UVA or Brown.

 

It just seems like all the prestigious programs/programs I'm intrested in for an MA (like UChi, UCSB, Rutgers, Colombia, UVA) are so damn expensive, especially for an out of state-er (I'm in Illinois btw).

So the question I've been unable to answer for myself is: How do I find a balance between the economical school and the prestigious one? To put another more specific way: what caliber of MA program would allow me to get into the UVA or Brown PhD programs?

Although I want to minimize the debt I go into, I am not afraid to take on some more, since studying in this field is what I want to do with my life. However, I'm already 50k in debt, so I'd like to minimize the damage so to speak, if possible. 

Hope this makes sense. Any advice is sincerely appreciated.!

 

 

[xypathos]

At the MA, you'll need more than grades to get in, especially for an academic, language focused degree. That said, you just simply won't know your financial aid situation until you apply, get accepted, and then see how bad they want you.

So, like so many of us in this predicament - apply broadly and see where you get in. Once you're in you'll need to prioritize offers and certainly prestige should be a factor. In your case you definitely want to be mindful of the debt you take on because you also need to accept the possibility that you might not be accepted into a PhD or that it'll take you 2+ cycles to land an acceptance.

I don't know your focus specifically but perhaps Harvard's PhD in Himalayan Studies as an alternate possibility. Naropa University's financial aid is fairly poor (so I've been told) but when I last checked maybe 3-4 years ago they had students accepted into Harvard, UVA, Oxford, etc on an almost yearly basis.

[menge]

I agree with @xypathos: apply broadly and see what sticks. You may be surprised.

Also, you might look at different Asian Studies programs, especially if language is the most important thing you need to pick up at the MA level. I know several RS faculty members who did Asian Studies as an MA, and went on to top RS programs. With Sanskrit, I image you'd be looking at South Asian studies programs primarily. I'm not sure what the funding is like for Asian Studies (not my field), but its worth checking on. 

[Nicholas B]

Apply broadly is definitely something I need to keep remembering. Thanks for the reminder.......And I didn't realize Naropa students would be able to get into schools like that. I'm going to do some homework on them for sure. 

[Nicholas B]

19 hours ago, xypathos said:

I don't know your focus specifically but perhaps Harvard's PhD in Himalayan Studies as an alternate possibility. Naropa University's financial aid is fairly poor (so I've been told) but when I last checked maybe 3-4 years ago they had students accepted into Harvard, UVA, Oxford, etc on an almost yearly basis.

How can I check what institutions Naropa students have been accepted to in years past? I can't seem to find anywhere to do so on their website. 

[xypathos]

On 10/24/2016 at 10:09 PM, Nicholas B said:

How can I check what institutions Naropa students have been accepted to in years past? I can't seem to find anywhere to do so on their website. 

I contacted the school directly and spoke with two PhD students, one at Harvard and another that went to Oxford.

[Nicholas B]

23 hours ago, xypathos said:

I contacted the school directly and spoke with two PhD students, one at Harvard and another that went to Oxford.

A great idea. I'm trying to do the same now!

Do you have any two-cents about Naropa's program in general? It has a lot of appeal to me because of its contemplative pedagogy, abundance of Buddhism classes, and the availability of Sanskrit classes. However, I'm wondering if it is viewed in a high enough regard by PhD programs?  It seems to me I would enjoy the environment of Naropa and benefit from its contemplative style, butI  wouldn't want to sacrifice my chances of getting into a good PhD program.

Thanks! 

[xypathos]

3 hours ago, Nicholas B said:

A great idea. I'm trying to do the same now!

Do you have any two-cents about Naropa's program in general? It has a lot of appeal to me because of its contemplative pedagogy, abundance of Buddhism classes, and the availability of Sanskrit classes. However, I'm wondering if it is viewed in a high enough regard by PhD programs?  It seems to me I would enjoy the environment of Naropa and benefit from its contemplative style, butI  wouldn't want to sacrifice my chances of getting into a good PhD program.

Thanks! 

Honestly, I don't know enough of Naropa's program to give enough information of value. I spent a combined two years in Tibet (spread out over 4.5 years, roughly) and contemplated jumping into a comparative study of Buddhism and "mystical Catholicism" but ultimately decided against it. That said, it wasn't because of anything against Naropa (I toured the school years back and have friends that went (I'll reach out to them on your behalf)) but ultimately just decided I'd rather stick to touring the area.

I know they shuffled up the curriculum about four years ago but I don't know what impact, if any, that had on its ability to place students.

Gregory Seton at Dartmouth graduated from Naropa back in 2004, then went onto Oxford - I don't know how connected he may still be. Holly Gayley graduated in 2000 (went onto Harvard), again - she'll at least be able to speak to the student experience there.

Also another option, I think I recall Oxford announcing that they received a scholarship to significantly assist with aid to students wanting to study Tibetan (I realize you want Sanskrit too) in their MPhil program. I don't know of the competition to the program or anything but it's something to consider - http://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/mphil-tibetan-and-himalayan-studies

Edited October 27, 2016 by xypathos

[Nicholas B]

15 hours ago, xypathos said:

Honestly, I don't know enough of Naropa's program to give enough information of value. I spent a combined two years in Tibet (spread out over 4.5 years, roughly) and contemplated jumping into a comparative study of Buddhism and "mystical Catholicism" but ultimately decided against it. That said, it wasn't because of anything against Naropa (I toured the school years back and have friends that went (I'll reach out to them on your behalf)) but ultimately just decided I'd rather stick to touring the area.

I know they shuffled up the curriculum about four years ago but I don't know what impact, if any, that had on its ability to place students.

Gregory Seton at Dartmouth graduated from Naropa back in 2004, then went onto Oxford - I don't know how connected he may still be. Holly Gayley graduated in 2000 (went onto Harvard), again - she'll at least be able to speak to the student experience there.

Also another option, I think I recall Oxford announcing that they received a scholarship to significantly assist with aid to students wanting to study Tibetan (I realize you want Sanskrit too) in their MPhil program. I don't know of the competition to the program or anything but it's something to consider - http://www.ox.ac.uk/admissions/graduate/courses/mphil-tibetan-and-himalayan-studies

Thanks a lot for all this great information and for reaching out to those Naropa grads!

I actually spoke to both a Naropa grad whose a PhD at UVA and my Professors and they all seem to give the same answer: getting into a great PhD program primarily depends on one's background, experience, and research interests that aline with some of, or at least one of, the faculty. No substitute for working your butt off, writing well, and having a good research topic. 

Wow, going to Tibet must have been something else! Its one of my dreams to go there. I don't blame you for choosing to continue to tour the area instead of studying it in a classroom. 

Again, thanks for all this great advice. Just out of curiosity, what do you study now?

[xypathos]

43 minutes ago, Nicholas B said:

Thanks a lot for all this great information and for reaching out to those Naropa grads!

I actually spoke to both a Naropa grad whose a PhD at UVA and my Professors and they all seem to give the same answer: getting into a great PhD program primarily depends on one's background, experience, and research interests that aline with some of, or at least one of, the faculty. No substitute for working your butt off, writing well, and having a good research topic. 

Wow, going to Tibet must have been something else! Its one of my dreams to go there. I don't blame you for choosing to continue to tour the area instead of studying it in a classroom. 

Again, thanks for all this great advice. Just out of curiosity, what do you study now?

Tibet was a blast! The last time I was there was the Spring of '08 with a professor doing work on mystical Judaism in Rabbinic literature and its parallels in Buddhism. I was his glorified RA, though I think it was more of a he wanted someone to chat with and I knew the area enough to get by. Unfortunately shit hit the fan with the 3-14 protests and we were forced to leave so we went to Mongolia. I traveled to Nepal and Burma last summer to see old UG friends but couldn't make it back to Lhasa.

I largely focus my studies in this hodge-podge of moral and systematic theology, in particular I'm interested in contemporary theodicy arguments and their relation to technology.

[Nicholas B]

Sounds like a tumultuous time to be there, but undoubtedly rewarding! Seeing Lhasa in person must have been quite the experience, I didn't even know the Chinese let Westerners in there.

 

If you're ex-Naropa friends ever get back to you, I'd be keen to hear their input about the academic rigor and how Naropa's unique program may help/hinder PhD prospects. Thanks again. 

[vaporeon]

FWIW I did the expensive MA in order to get into a top-5 PhD, and I don't regret it at all. However, I have no dependents/spouse to worry about burdening with my debt.

[Nicholas B]

On October 31, 2016 at 7:46 PM, vaporeon said:

FWIW I did the expensive MA in order to get into a top-5 PhD, and I don't regret it at all. However, I have no dependents/spouse to worry about burdening with my debt.

If you don't mind me asking, how much debt to you incur?

The more and more I search, it seems to me that getting MA funding is highly unlikely. At best maybe 50%, which is still cool, but once living expenses are added I'm still probabley gonna have to cover 30-50k  

 I'm in a similar position as far as having no dependents, so debt isn't something I'm totally averse to. Especially since I think it'd be worth it if I was able to get into a top program and research my interests!

 

Edited November 3, 2016 by Nicholas B

[sacklunch]

On 10/31/2016 at 8:46 PM, vaporeon said:

FWIW I did the expensive MA in order to get into a top-5 PhD, and I don't regret it at all. However, I have no dependents/spouse to worry about burdening with my debt.

I also did this. Though I first did a well funded MTS (at a well-known school) and then did an expensive MA (also at a well-known school). I'm now in a top-5 PhD program.

I'll also note that while I do know a handful of people in top programs with M* degrees from lesser known schools, the vast majority of them went to the usual suspects (including MAs in religious studies).

Edited November 4, 2016 by sacklunch

[vaporeon]

3 hours ago, Nicholas B said:

If you don't mind me asking, how much debt to you incur?

$60k. I'm 2 years out, and in my first year of my paid PhD program, and the debt is down to $37k, which I realize is still a lot. However, my current stipend is enough that I can keep paying on my loans. 

[Nicholas B]

On 11/3/2016 at 7:18 PM, sacklunch said:

I'll also note that while I do know a handful of people in top programs with M* degrees from lesser known schools, the vast majority of them went to the usual suspects (including MAs in religious studies).

This is a good point and in my chief concern.

On 11/3/2016 at 9:21 PM, vaporeon said:

$60k. I'm 2 years out, and in my first year of my paid PhD program, and the debt is down to $37k, which I realize is still a lot. However, my current stipend is enough that I can keep paying on my loans. 

How right am I in suspecting that the chances for MA funding are slim and that loans to the tune of ten' of thousands are inevitable? 

[vaporeon]

Just now, Nicholas B said:

How right am I in suspecting that the chances for MA funding are slim and that loans to the tune of ten' of thousands are inevitable? 

I'm not in your field, and I think it varies a lot by field. Harvard offered me $20k, and Columbia $16k. Vanderbilt offered me 2/3 tuition, which was the best deal of them all, but all three options were still a pretty penny. 

[xypathos]

@Nicholas B, I haven't forgotten about you but unfortunately I just haven't heard anything back yet. 

[Nicholas B]

On 11/10/2016 at 1:22 AM, xypathos said:

@Nicholas B, I haven't forgotten about you but unfortunately I just haven't heard anything back yet. 

I appreciate the update!

[jujubea]

Are you opposed to applying to combined Master's and PhD programs? 

[Nicholas B]

On 12/1/2016 at 3:42 PM, jujubea said:

Are you opposed to applying to combined Master's and PhD programs? 

No, I'm not opposed, although I don't know much about such opportunities. What kinds of programs like this are there?

[sacklunch]

16 hours ago, Nicholas B said:

No, I'm not opposed, although I don't know much about such opportunities. What kinds of programs like this are there?

I'm not clear on what jujubea means here. Most doctoral programs in RS in this country award an MA, AM, or MPhil as part of the program (usually after two years/coursework is finished one can apply for the M* degree); some even offer several M* as part of the doctoral program (e.g. Yale). There are a few programs that allow M* students to apply internally to continue on to the PhD. This means basically that your application is considered on different criteria than external applicants; though the success rate of this varies considerably from school to school--as does the acceptance rate of said M* programs (being much lower, I would guess). 

[jujubea]

It means you get the master's en route to the PhD. 

Santa Barbara is like this. 

[Marcion]

In my experience, you want to balance both sadly. Get into a good and prestigious program/school and make sure they give you decent funding... Sadly, it seems to be the state of the market and the field.