Am I hire-able?

[inprogress]

Hello, all, 

I grew up in a very conservative evangelical home, and consequently went to a very conservative Christian college. When I was in college, I began to move to the left of my parents and professors, and now would identify myself as a more moderate evangelical (along the lines of Fuller Theological Seminary). When I was finishing college, a professor frankly told me that I'd have no shot at getting into places like HDS, DDS, PTS, etc. with my degree, and that I would have to take out tens of thousands of dollars worth of loans to attend a place like Fuller or Gordon-Conwell (I think he was right on both accounts). The dean of the seminary attached to the college I attended offered me an 80% scholarship for the M.Div. program there, so I decided to stay at the same school and use try use the M.Div. to bridge into a second masters degree at a more prestigious school (i.e., HDS, PTS, etc.). I'm now in my second year in the M.Div. program, and I'm wondering if I've shot my own foot off by staying in such conservative circles for so long. I can't see myself teaching at a conservative "ministry-training" school like the ones I've attended (I'm too liberal), but I also don't know if I have any shot at a job in the moderate evangelical-to-secular range of schools either (My credentials are too conservative). I'm not enjoying school right now (I never agree with my profs, and I hate the ministry portion of the M.Div.), and I'm kinda wondering if it's time for me to give up the dream of being a professor. 

Is my background less damning than I think, or should I move on to another potential career? 

(IDK, I may just be suffering from some mid-semester blues.)

[Kuriakos]

Do an MTS at a more liberal school like Duke after the MDiv and try to make it clear from your application materials and writing sample that you aren't a fundy.

[xypathos]

Agreed with @Kuriakos, do a MTS at Duke or several schools, such as Yale, offer a STM (Master of Sacred Theology) which is a bridge for someone wanting to transition from M.Div to PhD but needs a little more academic coursework.

Keep in mind that some schools distinguish between academic MA (as opposed to ministerial MDiv) and then MTS or STM. It can get confusing but just check to see what the school has and their requirements for the degree. You'd likely be better served with post-MDiv STM but a MTS wouldn't hurt, just speak with Admissions about how your credits might transfer and not having to take intro courses again.

[Almaqah Thwn]

16 hours ago, inprogress said:

Hello, all, 

I grew up in a very conservative evangelical home, and consequently went to a very conservative Christian college. When I was in college, I began to move to the left of my parents and professors, and now would identify myself as a more moderate evangelical (along the lines of Fuller Theological Seminary). When I was finishing college, a professor frankly told me that I'd have no shot at getting into places like HDS, DDS, PTS, etc. with my degree, and that I would have to take out tens of thousands of dollars worth of loans to attend a place like Fuller or Gordon-Conwell (I think he was right on both accounts). The dean of the seminary attached to the college I attended offered me an 80% scholarship for the M.Div. program there, so I decided to stay at the same school and use try use the M.Div. to bridge into a second masters degree at a more prestigious school (i.e., HDS, PTS, etc.). I'm now in my second year in the M.Div. program, and I'm wondering if I've shot my own foot off by staying in such conservative circles for so long. I can't see myself teaching at a conservative "ministry-training" school like the ones I've attended (I'm too liberal), but I also don't know if I have any shot at a job in the moderate evangelical-to-secular range of schools either (My credentials are too conservative). I'm not enjoying school right now (I never agree with my profs, and I hate the ministry portion of the M.Div.), and I'm kinda wondering if it's time for me to give up the dream of being a professor. 

Is my background less damning than I think, or should I move on to another potential career? 

(IDK, I may just be suffering from some mid-semester blues.)

Hello inprogress,

I was in a similar boat to you. I attended a fundamentalist seminary and am now am in a Masters program at an Ivy League school, wherein my professor now has been very supportive of my PhD applications. So, your future in academia is not dead, I can attest to that. But, I deeply emphathize with your frustration. My M Div program was at a fundamentalist school and about half way in I realized my theological convictions were very different from that of the program (some at the school would call it "liberal," but I identify as a middle-right mainline Protestant). And, it is somewhat excruciating, lonely, and depressing to sort of be the lone person who thinks your way in your program. Furthermore, you're in for basically two years of hoop jumping, where you have to take classes which are of no interest to you, plough through unprofitable busy work and uninteresting books, and bear with the conscious awareness that your professors are dismissing legitimate scholarly issues and then sometimes taking potshots at them (Your post tells me you are already aware of this, as well). 

While a conservative M Div is certainly a strike against you and scholars will be suspicious of you, it is not the death of you (In fact, a couple of years ago someone graduating from Westminster California got straight into Johns Hopkins NES program, and I myself almost got in as well). Although, I would not recommend doing the direct PhD route, there is just too much resistance and there is a high chance you'll get shot down. A Masters at a recognized school will help you overcome this (Once more, there were two people from my seminary who did Masters elsewhere afterwards, and got into PhD programs at top 20 schools), as will tact ways of showing that you are not a fundamentalist. Furthermore, also recognize that some places will also occasionally let people in, even if they are recognized fundamentalists. 

But that all being said, your academic career is not dead. The good thing about the M Div is that it is long and you have a decent amount of spare time. Take time now to develop skills that will make your application shine and get you into Masters programs with funding. If I were in your position, I would advise four things. First, learn German and find some way to get it on your transcript. German can make or break an application. If your school does not offer German, see if you can do a directed study. Heck, I even audited a directed study and was able to take German for free, since my seminary had free audits. You're going to need about a year to get to an intermediate level (don't just go for basic), and you have to be constant with it. (Also, don't chicken out and just study French instead. As a professor once told me when I was visiting their program: "French is easy.")

Second, do a thesis and spend half a year working on one solid paper which you would feel comfortable publishing. You need a great writing sample to show you have scholarly abilities. The problem at your stage of academia is that you have never been pushed to produce good scholarship. In fact, many seminarians think they have produced good articles, when they are really just okay term papers. You want something more that is exhaustive of the minute area at which it is looking. Also, this is a great opportunity to contact people within your field. If you are working on a subject matter and can find a professor working at a school with an MA program who is also interested, you can start to create a great relationship with people. I know a student who got funding because they contacted the professor under whom they are working a year or year and a half in advance about the topic in which they were interested. They asked the professor to look over a draft paper they wrote in their subject area, the professor agreed, took the paper, tore it up, and sent it back with tons of reccomendations. Needless to say, do not be afraid to contact people or ask for things. There are great people out there who would love to help you out and will go to bat for you. 

Third, hammer away at the primary language which you are studying and get really good at it. Then, find a way to display that in your writing sample/thesis. Being in a conservative seminary, you can have a low opinion of your institute's scholarship. And to be honest, a lot of does not deal sufficiently with complex scholarly issues and relies on out of date theories which have long been (rightly) dismissed by mainline academics (There has been tons of scholarship about theology and the ancient Near East produced in the last twenty years of which I was completely unware until I got to this school). However, I have found that the conservative seminaries that are truly passionate about languages can provide you the foundation upon which to develop skills which rival the highly ranked academic institutions. 

Fourth, this is actually less of a recommendation and more of a gamble which you could take: If you have the spare time, find something which would make your application stand out from everyone else's. Is there a language, region, theory, or area of interest which you could train into which relatively few people are looking (And which schools generally do not teach)? There might be those lone scholars out there who is interested in one area in which no one else is interested, and they would love to get an email from someone interested in the same thing. This is a risk, though, as you do not know whether or not such professor exists. Check faculty pages on lists of good schools to get a feel of what you could do (Also, see if you can learn anything about the individual scholars themselves). If you can find a few people who might be interested and its a language\theory which undergraduate institutions and seminaries are not generally teaching, it could play out to your advantage. And even if you do not find anything, just doing your own research in modern scholarship, getting familiar with the names who are out there, and reading their articles is extremely beneficial in the long run 

 

All that being said (And I have spent way too much time typing this), I want to leave you with this one thing because I found that I was constantly struggling with it: Recognize that the position in which you are is not all bad. Even though fundamentalist scholarship has serious flaws, your professors, fellow students, and the people working at your seminary are still great people who care for you, will go to bat for you, and be interested in your well being. I am in the position which I am in now because of more conservative scholars who took time out of their busy schedule and went out of the way to help me get ahead in life, and I owe them a great deal for that. And even though much of the practical theology requirements are frustrating and can seem as though they have no academic value, they are very useful for your own maturation and developing empathy for others around you. I remember one professor: I hated his classes, but I highly admired him as a person. I once ran into him as I was paying rent, and he was paying another student's tuition. Another time, I was getting a new computer at a Best Buy, and he was buying someone else a computer. And, all of this was on a seminary professor's budget, mind you, which is not a lot. He was an amazing person, even though I disliked his classes and know that he would not read my books for being "liberal." So, enjoy the people around you now, forgive their flaws, tread carefully, but tread lovingly. You're in the position in which you are for a reason. That said, I'm not accusing you of doing any of this. But, I do know how easy it is to fall into the trap of academic snobbery and how poisonous it can be. 

Edited October 28, 2016 by Almaqah Thwn

[sacklunch]

FWIW, I think there is still time to 'get out'. You will likely need to do another M*; but you know this. In fact, there is nothing keeping you where you are. You could apply to several of the 'liberal' and/or secular programs this season. If you did do so and your grades are good (decent, even), I think you would be fairly successful. This is often repeated on the forum, but it's worth saying again: the top divinity schools in this country have relatively high acceptance rates. Compare them with almost any other professional program at these R1 schools, and they are hilariously high: over the years I have read/heard the top MDiv programs-HDS, YDS, Chicago, Duke, and so on-sit somewhere between a 40-60% acceptance rate. And many of these schools offer really good funding (historically, at least, HDS and PTS, while Duke is known for being on the lower end). Regardless of whether you stay at your current program, you might also consider an MA in RS or Religion (or perhaps another MA depending on your field of interest). Most MA programs require few specific courses, which would allow you to 'catch up' on pure academics rather than trudging through more unrelated coursework. But this may all be rather worthless to you without knowing more about your interests. At least for those of us who work in antiquity, having 2 M* is sort of old hat; most of us (me) have two (and a third, sometimes even fourth while doing the doctorate). Take heart, friend. 

[inprogress]

On 10/27/2016 at 8:07 PM, Almaqah Thwn said:

And, it is somewhat excruciating, lonely, and depressing to sort of be the lone person who thinks your way in your program. Furthermore, you're in for basically two years of hoop jumping, where you have to take classes which are of no interest to you, plough through unprofitable busy work and uninteresting books, and bear with the conscious awareness that your professors are dismissing legitimate scholarly issues and then sometimes taking potshots at them (Your post tells me you are already aware of this, as well). 

This describes my situation exactly, AT. I'm glad to hear from someone who can understand my frustration. I also tire of the scowls and confused looks when people learn that I'm not pursuing ministry and ask, "Why are you in seminary if you don't want to be a pastor?" 

I am already planning on doing most of the steps you mentioned. My school doesn't offer French or German, but I've been taking heavier loads so that I can take both during my third year from a state university about 30 min. away. I've received pretty good training in Greek (NT and patristic) and Hebrew, and I'm even taking Aramaic next semester. Biblical languages are heavily emphasized here. I definitely need to get to work on some more substantial research though, as you suggested. 

On 10/27/2016 at 8:07 PM, Almaqah Thwn said:

All that being said (And I have spent way too much time typing this), I want to leave you with this one thing because I found that I was constantly struggling with it: Recognize that the position in which you are is not all bad. Even though fundamentalist scholarship has serious flaws, your professors, fellow students, and the people working at your seminary are still great people who care for you, will go to bat for you, and be interested in your well being. I am in the position which I am in now because of more conservative scholars who took time out of their busy schedule and went out of the way to help me get ahead in life, and I owe them a great deal for that. And even though much of the practical theology requirements are frustrating and can seem as though they have no academic value, they are very useful for your own maturation and developing empathy for others around you. I remember one professor: I hated his classes, but I highly admired him as a person. I once ran into him as I was paying rent, and he was paying another student's tuition. Another time, I was getting a new computer at a Best Buy, and he was buying someone else a computer. And, all of this was on a seminary professor's budget, mind you, which is not a lot. He was an amazing person, even though I disliked his classes and know that he would not read my books for being "liberal." So, enjoy the people around you now, forgive their flaws, tread carefully, but tread lovingly. You're in the position in which you are for a reason. That said, I'm not accusing you of doing any of this. But, I do know how easy it is to fall into the trap of academic snobbery and how poisonous it can be. 

Thank you for taking the time to type this, AT. I found it very helpful and encouraging. I can't be very frank about this with my fellow students, so it's very encouraging to hear from someone with a similar background who has managed to make it to the next step. You made some really good points in this last paragraph. It is important to be thankful for good, caring people. I even have one professor (a patristics scholar, my broad AOI) who has published with OUP, Mohr Siebeck, etc. He does good historical work and deserves respect, even if I disagree with him about some critical/theological issues. 

Thanks again. I need to stop worrying, put my head down, and just do what I can to make strong applications for next year. 

[inprogress]

On 10/27/2016 at 9:01 PM, sacklunch said:

FWIW, I think there is still time to 'get out'. You will likely need to do another M*; but you know this. In fact, there is nothing keeping you where you are. You could apply to several of the 'liberal' and/or secular programs this season. If you did do so and your grades are good (decent, even), I think you would be fairly successful. This is often repeated on the forum, but it's worth saying again: the top divinity schools in this country have relatively high acceptance rates. Compare them with almost any other professional program at these R1 schools, and they are hilariously high: over the years I have read/heard the top MDiv programs-HDS, YDS, Chicago, Duke, and so on-sit somewhere between a 40-60% acceptance rate. And many of these schools offer really good funding (historically, at least, HDS and PTS, while Duke is known for being on the lower end). Regardless of whether you stay at your current program, you might also consider an MA in RS or Religion (or perhaps another MA depending on your field of interest). Most MA programs require few specific courses, which would allow you to 'catch up' on pure academics rather than trudging through more unrelated coursework. But this may all be rather worthless to you without knowing more about your interests. At least for those of us who work in antiquity, having 2 M* is sort of old hat; most of us (me) have two (and a third, sometimes even fourth while doing the doctorate). Take heart, friend. 

I've considered trying to jump ship, but I think I may have better odds if I stay where I am. I have a 4.0 GPA, but I still don't think I'd be guaranteed to get accepted to an MA in RS, or a funded MTS/MAR at Div. school. (My broad AOI is patristics). I really don't want to enter another M.Div., I'd probably have to repeat a number of courses given ideological differences between my school and top tier divinity schools. After this year I'll have 80% of the program done, so the last year will mostly be comprised of modern research languages at a nearby university. I think I'll have a better shot at funded M* programs after that year. 

[marXian]

I met someone during the first year of my program who was in the middle of his third master's degree (MA theology) at UChicago. He was in the exact same situation you're in now: Did an MDiv at Liberty, struck out in PhD applications. Went to Tufts and did an MA in philosophy, struck out again. Went to UChicago and then finally got into an Ivy PhD program (in addition to other really highly regarded programs.) It's certainly not the end, but be prepared to buckle down and pick up another master's degree (at the very least).

[MLODiv]

I am in the exact same boat. I am almost done with my M.Div at a conservative school and am hoping to get into one of the major div schools. I have thought quite a bit about how to improve my chances, and I have come to some of the same conclusions listed here. However, I would want to know how one goes about getting respectable LORs in this situation. Are the adcoms going to look with disdain on a LOR from a conservative professor?

[xypathos]

I don't think the LOR from a conservative professor is what would do you in. Rather, I think they'll be more interested in your methodology and how you approach your work. If you're open to being led by the "evidence" in front of you, that's good. If you're looking for evidence that affirms a position you already have (being an apologist), then they'll find that problematic.

Being a conservative, though open to criticism, and still arriving at a conservative conclusion isn't bad in of itself. Being so close-minded that you look for evidence which affirms a position you've already established as truth is bad for everyone.

Plenty of students here and elsewhere have made the move from conservative to HYP-level schools. So, you're not alone and hopefully some chime in with their experience and advice!

[sacklunch]

1 hour ago, xypathos said:

I don't think the LOR from a conservative professor is what would do you in. Rather, I think they'll be more interested in your methodology and how you approach your work. If you're open to being led by the "evidence" in front of you, that's good. If you're looking for evidence that affirms a position you already have (being an apologist), then they'll find that problematic.

Being a conservative, though open to criticism, and still arriving at a conservative conclusion isn't bad in of itself. Being so close-minded that you look for evidence which affirms a position you've already established as truth is bad for everyone.

Plenty of students here and elsewhere have made the move from conservative to HYP-level schools. So, you're not alone and hopefully some chime in with their experience and advice!

The problem the OP may run into is, I think, deeper than merely looking at the evidence. The fields of religious studies, religion, history, and so on, all agree that approaching one's subject matter should attend closely to the evidence. We assume that this is as close as we can get to an 'objective' approach; for better or worse we owe these methods to the approaches of the sciences. We differ from other fields (esp. the 'hard' sciences) by our explicit acknowledgement (often ad nauseam) that our own experiences (our biases often in the limelight) shape the way we interpret the evidence. All of this you no doubt already know. But I think it's important to note that this propensity, even obsession with 'bias transparency' in religious studies scholarship, is seen as a good (note here I use a morally tinged term rather than something like 'positive') only insofar as it adheres to the reigning methodologies of one's field (perhaps even one's department). I'm not attempting to make some statement on whether one should or should not be open in their research/scholarship with, say, how their conservative upbringing informs their work. I'm merely saying that many others in the academy will not only expect others to excise (or hide?) parts of their identity (usually expressions of one's Christian identity) from their public persona (both on and off campus), but will remain convinced that someone from a conservative school, with conservative letters of recommendation, is just that. The rose blossoms on the thorn, they say.